Subject: Re: A little Friday coolness From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:02:23 -0700 Hi Paul, There was an instrument called a seismoscope that was an inverted pendulum that scratched a smoked glass plate to record the 2-dimensional motion of the pendulum. If swung in the absence of ground motion, a record like that of a Harmonograph would be generated. See: http://www.data.scec.org/Module/sec3pg07.html and There is a picture of the outside of a seismoscope posted here: http://www.geocities.com/meredithlamb/page022.html I can't find one right now that shows the inside. Does anyone have such a picture? With out any indication of time, these records were very hard to interpret. Cheers, John At 01:06 PM 6/29/2007, you wrote: >Folks, > >With all the talk about pendulums, it reminded me of a article I saw >in a magazine once. > >The article was about a Harmonograph. > >I won't even think about the math involved that would be Chris's department. > >It seems to me like a mechanical pendulum adding machine. >Where the length, decay, friction.. all play a roll in drawing not a >seismogram, but a ...? > >Early predecessor to the Spirograph toy?? Interesting, and not too >far off topic. > >PauLC >W1VLF > >http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Oscillations_and_Waves/Harmonographs/Harmonographs.html > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Seismic sensors From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 19:07:05 EDT In a message dated 2007/06/29, Tangazazen@....... writes: > Hi Chris, > Each of the photo detector quadrants generate about 0.7 microamp which > are fed into virtual earth charge sensitive amplifiers. > There are numerous noise sources but as you point out the shot noise > associated with the photo current is dominant. The quadrant detector is 8mm dia, in > fact a larger detector means a larger capacitance which in turn increases the > noise. Hi Martin, What sort of seismometer are you using this on? Is it in a feedback loop? 8 mm is rather small for use with a Lehman. These tend to have appreciable drifts, but +/-1/2" is usually adequate. You can get 10mm long Si photocells quite easily. You are driving the photo output into a zero impedance maintained at zero volts. What I don't follow is where any considerations of capacity arise? And why would increased capacity increase the noise? L and C components usually have no noise associated with them. However, this seems to be a very small photocurrent. What actually limits your resolution, if it isn't the shot noise of the photocurrent? It is the 'lock-in amplifier' approach that controls the noise level. For an integration > time of a few milliseconds the effective bandwidth at 10KHz is 100 - 200 or > so Hz. Lock-in systems can pull out a signal that is substantially less than > the noise level. Certainly lock-in amplifiers make you immune to 1/f noise and the output signal is integrated. I would hope for a bandwidth considerably less than 200 Hz. I appreciate that lock-in amplifiers can allow you to dig below ambient noise levels, but what does this do to the S/N ratio? What measured resolution are you getting? > The noise level of the LED has not been noticeable. The random conversion > to photons is offset by the use of a diffuse encapsulation, a bit like an > integrating sphere. The important requirement of the LED is uniformity of the > light spot and reasonable linearity when modulated. The feedback from the sum of > the quad elements is dynamic but there is a limit to how much the amplifier > loop can correct for nonlinearity. Which LED and photocell are you using? What is the optical setup? What sort of shutter are you using? Can you not use a LED with a flat window and a metal case - no integral lens? I would expect a diffuse response to give a reduced resolution? > LED temperature dependence under constant current conditions is non linear > but -0.7% over 20C to 80C is an approximate figure for a Gallium Arsenide > Phosphide at 670nm. The feedback loop as mentioned overcomes any temperature > dependence. Interestingly LED temperature coefficients seems to get smaller at > the shorter wavelength but the quantum yield of the LED and the response of > the Silicon diode decrease, it's a question of optimisation. This is still quite a serious temperature dependence. How are you driving the LED? Is it constant on current, variable time, or constant on time, variable current? Half sine, triangle or square wave? Maybe switch to GaAs photocells? > If I had to choose between full capacitive bridge and a quad photo > detector I would choose the latter, It's a much more elegant solution. Do you have a circuit diagram, please? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/06/29, Tangazazen@....... writes:

Hi Chris,
      Each of the photo detector quadrants generate= about 0.7 microamp which are fed into virtual earth charge sensitive amplif= iers.
There are numerous noise sources but as you point out the shot noise associa= ted with the photo current is dominant. The quadrant detector is 8mm dia, in= fact a larger detector means a larger capacitance which in turn increases t= he noise.


Hi Martin,

       What sort of seismometer are you using=20= this on? Is it in a feedback loop? 8 mm is rather small for use with a Lehma= n. These tend to have appreciable drifts, but +/-1/2" is usually adequate. Y= ou can get 10mm long Si photocells quite easily.

       You are driving the photo output into a= zero impedance maintained at zero volts. What I don't follow is where any c= onsiderations of capacity arise? And why would increased capacity increase t= he noise? L and C components usually have no noise associated with them.

       However, this seems to be a very small=20= photocurrent. What actually limits your resolution, if it isn't the shot noi= se of the photocurrent?

It is the 'lock-in amplifier' approach that controls the noise level. For an= integration
time of a few milliseconds the= effective bandwidth at 10KHz is 100 - 200 or so Hz. Lock-in systems can pul= l out a signal that is substantially less than the noise level.

       Certainly lock-in amplifiers make you=20= immune to 1/f noise and the output signal is integrated. I would hope for a=20= bandwidth considerably less than 200 Hz. I appreciate that lock-in amplifier= s can allow you to dig below ambient noise levels, but what does this do to=20= the S/N ratio?

       What measured resolution are you gettin= g?

The noise level of the LED has=20= not been noticeable. The random conversion to photons is offset by the use o= f a diffuse encapsulation, a bit like an integrating sphere. The important r= equirement of the LED is uniformity of the light spot and reasonable lineari= ty when modulated. The feedback from the sum of the quad elements is dynamic= but there is a limit to how much the amplifier loop can correct for nonline= arity.


       Which LED and photocell are you using?=
       What is the optical setup?
       What sort of shutter are you using?
       Can you not use a LED with a flat windo= w and a metal case - no integral lens?
       I would expect a diffuse response to gi= ve a reduced resolution?

LED temperature dependence und= er constant current conditions is non linear but -0.7% over 20C to 80C is an= approximate figure for a Gallium Arsenide Phosphide at 670nm. The feedback=20= loop as mentioned overcomes any temperature dependence. Interestingly LED te= mperature coefficients seems to get smaller at the shorter wavelength but th= e quantum yield of the LED and the response of the Silicon diode decrease, i= t's a question of optimisation. 

  
       This is still quite a serious temperatu= re dependence.
       How are you driving the LED? Is it cons= tant on current, variable time, or constant on time, variable current? Half=20= sine, triangle or square wave?
       Maybe switch to GaAs photocells?=

If I had to choose between ful= l capacitive bridge and a quad photo detector I would choose the latter, It'= s a much more elegant solution.


       Do you have a circuit diagram, please?<= BR>
       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Seismic sensors From: Tangazazen@....... Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 06:19:04 EDT Hi Chris, The seismometer is not a Lehman but a single pendulum with a natural period of 1 second. It is supported by two pairs of leaf suspensions arranged in a gimble form and give the pendulum two degrees of freedom but no rotation about it's axis. The LED and projection optics are mounted on the lower end and projects a 4mm spot of light modulated at 10KHz onto the quadrant photo cell. The quadrant detector produces the X & Y components of motion which in turn, via phase-sensitive detectors and appropriate feedback to orthogonal force transducers, hold the pendulum in a fixed position. A two axis broadband in fact but with a period of 60 seconds. The two axis output signals are of course the restraining force in volts/meter/second. Unlike the vertical broadband, temperature correction is unnecessary and tilt errors are compensated by giving the integrator a large dynamic range. The capacitance does not directly generate noise but modifies the source impedance which in turn change the ratio of the noise voltage to noise current contributions to the total noise. The photo current of 0.7 micro amps is large compared with the FET gate leakage current and is the dominate noise source. Narrower bandwidths of lock-in systems will improve the S/N ratio but may compromise the transient response, it's a question of optimisation. The important characteristics of the LED are uniformity of the light spot and linearity. The LED control feedback is dynamic i.e. both amplitude and wave form are controlled, but there is a limit to how much the loop can correct non-linearity before the onset of instability. The theoretical analysis of Force Balance Feedback is covered in Thomas Forbriger and Erhard Wielandt papers, the former is in German but the more practical aspects are well documented by Sean-Thomas Morrissey and Allen Coleman. I should perhaps point out that large quadrant silicon photo detectors are a little expensive to say the least and I would not have use this approach if I had not been given a handful. Regards Martin
Hi Chris,
 
     The seismometer is not a Lehman but a single=20 pendulum with a natural period of 1 second. It is supported by two pairs of=20= leaf=20 suspensions arranged in a gimble form and give the pendulum two degrees of=20 freedom but no rotation about it's axis. The LED and projection optics=20= are=20 mounted on the lower end and projects a 4mm spot of light modulated at 10KHz= =20 onto the quadrant photo cell. The quadrant detector produces the X & Y=20 components of motion which in turn, via phase-sensitive detectors and=20 appropriate feedback to orthogonal force transducers, hold the pendulum in a= =20 fixed position. A two axis broadband in fact but with a period of 60=20 seconds. The two axis output signals are of course the restraining forc= e in=20 volts/meter/second. Unlike the vertical broadband, temperature correction is= =20 unnecessary and tilt errors are compensated by giving the integrator a large= =20 dynamic range. 
 
The capacitance does not directly generate noise but modifies the=20 source impedance which in turn change the ratio of the noise voltage to nois= e=20 current contributions to the total noise. The photo current of 0.7 micr= o=20 amps is large compared with the FET gate leakage current and is the dominate= =20 noise source.
 
Narrower bandwidths of lock-in systems will improve the S/N ratio but m= ay=20 compromise the transient response, it's a question of optimisation.
 
The important characteristics of the LED are uniformity of the light sp= ot=20 and linearity. The LED control feedback is dynamic i.e. both amplitude and w= ave=20 form are controlled, but there is a limit to how much the loop can=20 correct non-linearity before the onset of instability.
 
The theoretical analysis of Force Balance Feedback is covered in Thomas= =20 Forbriger and Erhard Wielandt papers, the former is in German but the more=20 practical aspects are well documented by Sean-Thomas Morrissey and Allen=20 Coleman.
 
 I should perhaps point out that large quadrant silicon photo=20 detectors are a little expensive to say the least and I would not have use t= his=20 approach if I had not been given a handful.
 
 
 
 Regards Martin
 Subject: Earthquake at 110km depth ?! From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 13:06:57 +0000 Hi all The SIL network of the Icelandic met office has detected something intresting, the automatic system shows a earthquake at 110km depth, where the crust is only ~30 km thick. This might be a error, but my station shows a event at that same time. If this earthquake gets confirmed at depth of more then 30km there must be something intresting be under the crust in my area. I did check for gloabl earthquake and I didn't see any event big enugh to create a false local earthquake, but that requires a mag 8.0+ less then 7700 km away from Iceland to do that. Any suggestion on what this is are welcomed. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake at 110km depth ?! From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2007 02:09:21 +1200 Jón Frímann wrote: > Hi all > > The SIL network of the Icelandic met office has detected something > intresting, the automatic system shows a earthquake at 110km depth, > where the crust is only ~30 km thick. This might be a error, but my > station shows a event at that same time. If this earthquake gets > confirmed at depth of more then 30km there must be something intresting > be under the crust in my area. > > I did check for gloabl earthquake and I didn't see any event big enugh > to create a false local earthquake, but that requires a mag 8.0+ less > then 7700 km away from Iceland to do that. > > Any suggestion on what this is are welcomed. Hi Jón, You might be interested to look at this image: http://www.geonet.org.nz/images/earthquake/quakes/2757147gc.png It's a scattergram of earthquake locations mapped onto the earth's surface and a plot showing the depth of the quakes along a line perpendicular to the major fault. I'm sure you'll be able to find similar plots for Iceland. -- cheers Mark __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake at 110km depth ?! From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 08:04:25 -0700 J=F3n, You can explore in map view and cross section the=20 seismicity of any area with the free program=20 SeismicEruption. This is on Alan Jones' web site: http://www.geol.binghamton.edu/faculty/jones/ To visualize the paths of teleseismic arrivals, Alan's program SeismicWaves= is excellent (from the same site). Cheers, John At 07:09 AM 7/1/2007, you wrote: >J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote: >>Hi all >> >>intresting, the automatic system shows a earthquake at 110km depth, > >Hi J=F3n, > >You might be interested to look at this image: > >I'm sure you'll be able to find similar plots for Iceland. >-- >cheers >Mark > >____________ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake at 110km depth ?! From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2007 15:31:43 +0000 Hi all The only telesesmic earthquake that is close to this event is a mb5.5 earthquake in Japan at 04:12 UTC. http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D48436 But I do not think that this event is big enugh to create a viewable wave on the SIL network, but that is based on 1Hz stations and my 4.5Hz geophone, I have have had bigger events closer then this and not seen them. This is a mistery to me. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake at 110km depth ?! From: Tangazazen@....... Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 12:14:35 EDT Hi Jon, It might well be the M 5.5 earthquake from Japan at 04:12 UTC. While my recorder was not active the seismometer alarm did wake me unfortunately, just after that time. I have in the past picked up the M 5.4 from Luzon on 6-5-07 and a whole series from Ryukyo Islands on 20-4-07. The later consisted of 7 events ranging from 5.1 to 6.1 between 00:26:45 to 05:23:11 UTC. I wish some of these teleseismic events would occur during more civilised hours! Regards Martin
Hi Jon,
 
   It might well be the M 5.5 earthquake from Japan at 04:12=20= UTC.=20 While my recorder was not active the seismometer alarm did wake me= =20 unfortunately, just after that time. I have in the past picked up the&n= bsp;=20 M 5.4 from Luzon on 6-5-07 and a whole series from Ryukyo Islands on 20-4-07= ..=20 The later consisted of 7 events ranging from 5.1 to 6.1 between 00:26:45 to=20 05:23:11 UTC.  I wish some of these teleseismic events would occur= =20 during more civilised hours!
 
 
Regards Martin
 Subject: Re: Seismic sensors From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 13:47:39 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/01 11:19:30 GMT Daylight Time, Tangazazen@....... writes: > Subj:Re: Seismic sensors > Date:2007/07/01 11:19:30 GMT Daylight Time > From:Tangazazen@....... > Reply-to:psn-l@.............. > To:psn-l@.............. > Sent from the Internet > > > > Hi Chris, > > The seismometer is not a Lehman but a single pendulum with a natural > period of 1 second. It is supported by two pairs of leaf suspensions arranged > in a gimble form and give the pendulum two degrees of freedom but no rotation > about it's axis. The LED and projection optics are mounted on the lower end > and projects a 4mm spot of light modulated at 10KHz onto the quadrant photo > cell. The quadrant detector produces the X & Y components of motion which in > turn, via phase-sensitive detectors and appropriate feedback to orthogonal > force transducers, hold the pendulum in a fixed position. A two axis broadband in > fact but with a period of 60 seconds. The two axis output signals are of > course the restraining force in volts/meter/second. Unlike the vertical > broadband, temperature correction is unnecessary and tilt errors are compensated by > giving the integrator a large dynamic range. > > The capacitance does not directly generate noise but modifies the source > impedance which in turn change the ratio of the noise voltage to noise current > contributions to the total noise. The photo current of 0.7 micro amps is large > compared with the FET gate leakage current and is the dominate noise source. > > Narrower bandwidths of lock-in systems will improve the S/N ratio but may > compromise the transient response, it's a question of optimisation. > > The important characteristics of the LED are uniformity of the light spot > and linearity. The LED control feedback is dynamic i.e. both amplitude and wave > form are controlled, but there is a limit to how much the loop can correct > non-linearity before the onset of instability. > > The theoretical analysis of Force Balance Feedback is covered in Thomas > Forbriger and Erhard Wielandt papers, the former is in German but the more > practical aspects are well documented by Sean-Thomas Morrissey and Allen Coleman. > > I should perhaps point out that large quadrant silicon photo detectors are > a little expensive to say the least and I would not have use this approach if > I had not been given a handful. > > > > Regards Martin > In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/01 11:19:30 GMT Daylight Time, Tangazazen@....... writes= :


Subj:Re: Seismic sensors
Date:2007/07/01 11:19:30 GMT Daylight Time
From:Tangazazen@.......
Reply-to:psn-l@.............. To:psn-l@..............
Sent from the Internet



Hi Chris,

     The seismometer is not a Lehman but a single pendul= um with a natural period of 1 second. It is supported by two pairs of leaf s= uspensions arranged in a gimble form and give the pendulum two degrees of fr= eedom but no rotation about it's axis. The LED and projection optics are mou= nted on the lower end and projects a 4mm spot of light modulated at 10KHz on= to the quadrant photo cell. The quadrant detector produces the X & Y com= ponents of motion which in turn, via phase-sensitive detectors and appropria= te feedback to orthogonal force transducers, hold the pendulum in a fixed po= sition. A two axis broadband in fact but with a period of 60 seconds. The tw= o axis output signals are of course the restraining force in volts/meter/sec= ond. Unlike the vertical broadband, temperature correction is unnecessary an= d tilt errors are compensated by giving the integrator a large dynamic range= ..

The capacitance does not directly generate noise but modifies the source imp= edance which in turn change the ratio of the noise voltage to noise current=20= contributions to the total noise. The photo current of 0.7 micro amps is lar= ge compared with the FET gate leakage current and is the dominate noise sour= ce.

Narrower bandwidths of lock-in systems will improve the S/N ratio but may co= mpromise the transient response, it's a question of optimisation.

The important characteristics of the LED are uniformity of the light spot an= d linearity. The LED control feedback is dynamic i.e. both amplitude and wav= e form are controlled, but there is a limit to how much the loop can correct= non-linearity before the onset of instability.

The theoretical analysis of Force Balance Feedback is covered in Thomas Forb= riger and Erhard Wielandt papers, the former is in German but the more pract= ical aspects are well documented by Sean-Thomas Morrissey and Allen Coleman.=

I should perhaps point out that large quadrant silicon photo detectors are=20= a little expensive to say the least and I would not have use this approach i= f I had not been given a handful.



Regards Martin


 Subject: Re: Seismic sensors From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2007 13:53:19 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/01 11:19:30 GMT Daylight Time, Tangazazen@....... writes: > The important characteristics of the LED are uniformity of the light spot > and linearity. The LED control feedback is dynamic i.e. both amplitude and > wave form are controlled, but there is a limit to how much the loop can correct > non-linearity before the onset of instability. > > I should perhaps point out that large quadrant silicon photo detectors are > a little expensive to say the least. Hi Martin, Do you use a round or a square spot and do you use a mask to define it accurately? What are the type numbers of your driver LED and the photodetector, please? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/01 11:19:30 GMT Daylight Time, Tangazazen@....... writes= :


The important characteristics o= f the LED are uniformity of the light spot and linearity. The LED control fe= edback is dynamic i.e. both amplitude and wave form are controlled, but ther= e is a limit to how much the loop can correct non-linearity before the onset= of instability.

I should perhaps point out that large quadrant silicon photo detectors are=20= a little expensive to say the least.


Hi Martin,

       Do you use a round or a square spot and= do you use a mask to define it accurately?

       What are the type numbers of your drive= r LED and the photodetector, please?

       Regards,
      
       Chris Chapman Subject: 6 month to go From: tchannel1@............ Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2007 21:48:32 -0600 Hi All, Where are all the big ones? Or should I ask, Major ones? = Years 2000-2006 averaged 12, Earthquakes 7.0-7.9M, per year. With six months gone and six months to go, this site shows 2 thus far, = this year. At this rate we would only see two more, for a total of = four, vs. twelve. I would think, from this, we are either going to = have a very slow year for Major earthquakes, or its going to be busy the = next six month. We would need 1.666 Majors events each month, to the = end of the year just to maintain that six year average. (Was it )? John, please let us know it you unplug your machine again. Ted http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0197840.html
Hi All,  Where are all the big=20 ones?   Or should  I ask, Major ones?  Years = 2000-2006=20 averaged 12, Earthquakes  7.0-7.9M, per year.
With six months gone and six months to = go, this=20 site shows 2 thus far, this year.  At this rate we would only see = two more,=20 for a total of four, vs. twelve.     I would think, = from=20 this, we are either going to have a very slow year for Major = earthquakes, or its=20 going to be busy the next six month.  We would need 1.666 Majors = events=20 each month, to the end of the year just to maintain that six year=20 average.
 
(Was it )? John, please let us know it = you unplug=20 your machine again.
Ted
 
 
 
 
http://www.infopleas= e.com/ipa/A0197840.html
Subject: Re: Period From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 02:17:31 -0700 Hello tchannel1, I think it might be interesting to sum all three axis possibly by some kind of vector math to obtain a single signal. I have never done this before but I know for a fact the main signal most probably is not in any of the three planes but some vector of all three together. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 06:07 Subject: Period Hi All, I just did a side by side comparison of an Earthquake recorded by a Vertical with a 2? second period and a Horz Pendulum with a 10? second period. The different on this 6.7M at 10000km was very pronounced, showing all the advantages of the Horz. However, using the Vertical, I record many more Earthquake, and smaller ones. If the event is large, both sensors are impressive (to me). In planning my next sensor, I need to pick a target period. I already see the advantage of each. What period might be the best target? Or is it just better to pick one end of the spectrum and not the center? Thanks, Ted __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Period From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 03:44:57 -0700 Hello tchannel1; This is a response to your post and intended for everyone at PSN. A period range of 0.2 Hz to 2Hz is by far the best range for seeing P and S of most EQ signals If one lives in a noisy area with lots of vehicular traffic this is the best range to use. In this range you should be able to crank up the gain until you see both low and high frq noise about +/- two samples maybe four then you should be able to see a 4.0 regional quake at 6 degrees of distance as the guideline for a MDL (Minimum discernable level). The smaller the bandwidth the less the noise. If you are in a quiet area by all means open up the bandwidth to see the close quakes better. If you have like a 24 bit A/D converter you can make the gain adjustable simply be looking at 8 or 12 or 16 bits and scaling everything else then you can digitally set the gain from the keyboard. If you program a modulo recorder of 12 minutes or so there are almost no earthquakes of any size that you will miss with a computer oriented recorder and a seismic alarm that works something like a venus fly trap trigger hairs. Do you know if anyone has ever used a laser pointer in a seismic sensor ? Possibly using surfaced mirrors to provide mechanical amplification like a lever arm ? If you do not build your own electronics and program your own software then most probably forget these finer details. Like Always, I am no expert but i do have several broken years of practical experience. To me an Amateur can be a layman who simply watches the signals and cares nothing more about the science since an amateur receives No pay for his hobby. Laymen Professional Expert are different ideas. I think you can find all three in any amateur group. I am an Amateur layman with some formal technical education and experience but no degree\certificates that means anything. The range I tell you here is from personal experience over the past 13 years. I have found the 500LB geophone used all over the world by the USGS gives the best signal right down to 20 seconds even tho it is a 1sec free period device. It does not have the severe natural damping of the smaller geophones but does have a very powerful magnet. My thought is this; The sensor should be in a vacuum and have a very powerful magnet and in a faraday shield otherwise the sensor will typically be marginal at best. Everything needs to be shielded and bonded between the Computer including the sensor. AntiAlising filtration by whatever means prior to conversion/recording by the A/D converter. Do not use the sensor coil for damping because that reduces sensitivity but instead use a seperate magnet/Copper Plate arrangement. The preamplifier to be a differential type with both +/- of the opamp equalized for DC. Put as little load on the sensor as possible. It used to be easy to get copper in Arizona but not any more unless you pay lots of cash, copper has become outrageously expensive along with everything else. It seems to me they (My Country/USA) do not want people playing around with Science and Technology unless they are rich or Formally educated. I think they (My USA) are overly Religious and overly paranoid. The majority of people here are not well enough educated (including myself). It is humbling to note that after study of life that intelligence/education are not necessary for survival. Winquake is the best public seismic program I have seen for the layman. I will convert my data to text to use in winquake and find the data easier to analyze. But to be most precise and accurate I will read using my own program on a sample by sample bases. Winquake gives a sort of standard for PSN and lets people share their data. But I have found that if you are converting your own data into PSN form you must start the first sample relating to an exact start of minute or the times will not be right. In Winquake You must test your sample rate and make sure its right. Start all your data for winquake at HH:MM:00.0 the seconds always being zero for your very first sample. You need cal markes from WWV/CHU or something like that to see the top of second zero in each minute. Say Minute 59-60 second mark goes high at sample #1025 use sample #1024 as the very first sample and stop the samples at the N= The next cal mark high - one sample at the end. Winquake should agree that the times are all right so long as you got the sample rate right. Winquake does not give me good times if I do not follow this idea. I can not just start out in the middle of a minute and end just anywhere. Without Cal marks of some standard type the times for the layman are uncertain. Winquake needs a FFT waterfall display to see a movie like of shifting frequencies over time. Possibly in 1024 sample chunks advancing one sample for the next 1024. Nothing fancy, Black and white and shades of gray, totally suitable. Regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: 6 month to go From: "Michael Kimzey" mckimzey@........... Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 07:40:59 -0400 >With six months gone and six months to go, this site shows 2 thus far, this >year. At this rate we would only see two more, for a total of four, vs. >twelve. I would think, from this, we are either going to have a very >slow year for Major earthquakes, or its going to be busy the next six >month. We would need 1.666 Majors events each month, to the end of the >year just to maintain that six year average. > >(Was it )? John, please let us know it you unplug your machine again. >Ted > It was me...and all sensors are on-line again...and just to further confound everyone, I collecting parts for a copy of Sean's Vertical. When it's complete, I expect the cessation of all seismic activity across the world!! - Mike __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Period From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 09:30:11 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/03, gmvoeth@........... writes: > Do you know if anyone has ever used a laser pointer > in a seismic sensor ? Possibly using surfaced mirrors > to provide mechanical amplification like a lever arm ? Hi Geoff, Laser pointers are very noisy and drift in intensity with temperature. You could maybe use a multiple reflection optical lever system with surface silvered mirrors, but getting satisfactory results may be difficult. The red light is too long a wavelength to use interference fringe counting at all easily. You have steps of ~300 nano metres between each fringe. Sensing to a fraction of a wavelength is possible using Moire fringes, but costly. Using large area differential Si or GaAs photocells and a stabilised voltage tungsten bulb work reasonably well. You can also use IR LEDs, but you need to stabilise the output - the photo output drifts quite strongly with temperature. IR and Superbright LEDs may be reasonably quiet, but ordinary LEDs can be quite noisy. The % noise decreases with increasing total photo current. The signal is proportional to the number of photons N in any sample, but the noise is proportional to Sqrt N. The size of the detector needs to be several thousand wavelengths minimum. You can also use IR LEDs in pulsed mode as the signal generator in a phase lock loop differential photo detector system, but the photo output needs to be stabilised. Photo detectors are well described at http://sales.hamamatsu.com/assets/applications/SSD/photodiode_technical_information.pdf Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/03, gmvoeth@........... writes:

Do you know if anyone has ever=20= used a laser pointer
in a seismic sensor ? Possibly using surfaced mirrors
to provide mechanical amplification like a lever arm ?


Hi Geoff,

       Laser pointers are very noisy and drift= in intensity with temperature. You could maybe use a multiple reflection op= tical lever system with surface silvered mirrors, but getting satisfactory r= esults may be difficult.
       The red light is too long a wavelength=20= to use interference fringe counting at all easily. You have steps of ~300 na= no metres between each fringe. Sensing to a fraction of a wavelength is poss= ible using Moire fringes, but costly.

       Using large area differential Si or GaA= s photocells and a stabilised voltage tungsten bulb work reasonably well. Yo= u can also use IR LEDs, but you need to stabilise the output - the photo out= put drifts quite strongly with temperature. IR and Superbright LEDs may be r= easonably quiet, but ordinary LEDs can be quite noisy.
       The % noise decreases with increasing t= otal photo current. The signal is proportional to the number of photons N in= any sample, but the noise is proportional to Sqrt N. The size of the detect= or needs to be several thousand wavelengths minimum.

       You can also use IR LEDs in pulsed mode= as the signal generator in a phase lock loop differential photo detector sy= stem, but the photo output needs to be stabilised.

       Photo detectors are well described at h= ttp://sales.hamamatsu.com/assets/applications/SSD/photodiode_technical_infor= mation.pdf
      
       Regards,

       Chris Chapman

 Subject: Yes we felt it! 4.3M Central California From: tchannel1@............ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:02:20 -0600 Hi All, Linda's Brother in Morgan Hill Ca. 16.5 miles North of the = 070702.195853.tcidzs.psn writes: =20 "Hi Linda and Ted, Yes, we did feel the earthquake at 12:58 this afternoon. I always look = at the clock when we have an earthquake so I knew your time was right = on. The dishes in my kitchen cupboards even rattled." We=20
Hi All,  Linda's Brother in Morgan = Hill=20 Ca.  16.5 miles North of the 070702.195853.tcidzs.psn writes:  =

"Hi Linda and = Ted,

Yes, we did = feel the=20 earthquake at 12:58 this afternoon. I always look at the clock when we = have an=20 earthquake so I knew your time was right on. The dishes in my kitchen = cupboards=20 even rattled."

We=20

Subject: RE: Period From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 07:03:52 -0700 Hi Geoff - If you did sum all the channels, how would you compensate for the fact that the P & S body waves do not always have the same initial direction (compression or dilation,) of travel on all channels. In addition, how would you compensate for Love waves which only appear on the transverse channel, and Rayleigh wave only appears only on the vertical and radial channels? Finally, the fault dynamics (focal mechanism) adds it own twist to the amplitudes of waves and how visible they will be depending upon the event to station and station to event azimuths. It would take a very complex algorithm to accomplish this and while I am certain it could be done, I am not sure just what would be accomplished. Bob -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Geoffrey Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 02:18 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Period Hello tchannel1, I think it might be interesting to sum all three axis possibly by some kind of vector math to obtain a single signal. I have never done this before but I know for a fact the main signal most probably is not in any of the three planes but some vector of all three together. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 06:07 Subject: Period Hi All, I just did a side by side comparison of an Earthquake recorded by a Vertical with a 2? second period and a Horz Pendulum with a 10? second period. The different on this 6.7M at 10000km was very pronounced, showing all the advantages of the Horz. However, using the Vertical, I record many more Earthquake, and smaller ones. If the event is large, both sensors are impressive (to me). In planning my next sensor, I need to pick a target period. I already see the advantage of each. What period might be the best target? Or is it just better to pick one end of the spectrum and not the center? Thanks, Ted __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: 6 month to go From: tchannel1@............ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:11:48 -0600 Mike, Thanks, and we will be watching. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Kimzey" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 5:40 AM Subject: RE: 6 month to go > > >>With six months gone and six months to go, this site shows 2 thus far, >>this year. At this rate we would only see two more, for a total of four, >>vs. twelve. I would think, from this, we are either going to have a >>very slow year for Major earthquakes, or its going to be busy the next six >>month. We would need 1.666 Majors events each month, to the end of the >>year just to maintain that six year average. >> >>(Was it )? John, please let us know it you unplug your machine again. >>Ted >> > > It was me...and all sensors are on-line again...and just to further > confound everyone, I collecting parts for a copy of Sean's Vertical. When > it's complete, I expect the cessation of all seismic activity across the > world!! > > - Mike > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Period From: tchannel1@............ Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:13:23 -0600 Hi Geoff, >Do you know if anyone has ever used a laser pointer in a seismic sensor ? Possibly using surfaced mirrors to provide mechanical amplification like a lever arm ? No I do not. Thanks for all this good information. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 4:44 AM Subject: Re: Period > Hello tchannel1; > > This is a response to your post and intended > for everyone at PSN. > > A period range of 0.2 Hz to 2Hz is by far the best > range for seeing P and S of most EQ signals > If one lives in a noisy area with lots of vehicular > traffic this is the best range to use. In this range you > should be able to crank up the gain until you see > both low and high frq noise about +/- two samples > maybe four then you should be able to see a 4.0 > regional quake at 6 degrees of distance as the > guideline for a MDL (Minimum discernable level). > The smaller the bandwidth the less the noise. > If you are in a quiet area by all means open up the bandwidth > to see the close quakes better. > If you have like a 24 bit A/D converter you can make the gain > adjustable simply be looking at 8 or 12 or 16 bits and scaling > everything else then you can digitally set the gain from > the keyboard. > > If you program a modulo recorder of 12 minutes or so > there are almost no earthquakes of any size > that you will miss with a computer oriented recorder > and a seismic alarm that works something like a venus fly trap > trigger hairs. > > Do you know if anyone has ever used a laser pointer > in a seismic sensor ? Possibly using surfaced mirrors > to provide mechanical amplification like a lever arm ? > > If you do not build your own electronics and program your own > software then most probably forget these finer details. > Like Always, I am no expert but i do have several broken > years of practical experience. > > To me an Amateur can be a layman who simply watches the signals > and cares nothing more about the science since an amateur receives > No pay for his hobby. Laymen Professional Expert are different ideas. > I think you can find all three in any amateur group. I am an Amateur > layman > with some formal technical education and experience but no > degree\certificates > that means anything. > The range I tell you here is from personal experience over the past 13 > years. > I have found the 500LB geophone used all over the world by the USGS gives > the > best signal right down to 20 seconds even tho it is a 1sec free period > device. > It does not have the severe natural damping of the smaller geophones > but does have a very powerful magnet. > > My thought is this; > The sensor should be in a vacuum and have a very powerful magnet > and in a faraday shield otherwise the sensor will typically be marginal at > best. > Everything needs to be shielded and bonded between the Computer including > the sensor. > AntiAlising filtration by whatever means prior to conversion/recording by > the A/D converter. > Do not use the sensor coil for damping because that reduces sensitivity > but instead > use a seperate magnet/Copper Plate arrangement. The preamplifier to be a > differential type with both +/- of the opamp equalized for DC. > Put as little load on the sensor as possible. > It used to be easy to get copper in Arizona but not any more > unless you pay lots of cash, copper has become outrageously expensive > along with everything else. > It seems to me they (My Country/USA) do not want people playing > around with Science and Technology unless they are rich or > Formally educated. I think they (My USA) are overly Religious and overly > paranoid. > The majority of people here are not well enough educated (including > myself). > It is humbling to note that after study of life that > intelligence/education are not necessary for survival. > > Winquake is the best public seismic program I have seen for the layman. > I will convert my data to text to use in winquake and find the data > easier to analyze. But to be most precise and accurate I will read > using my own program on a sample by sample bases. > Winquake gives a sort of standard for PSN and lets people > share their data. But I have found that if you are converting > your own data into PSN form you must start the first sample > relating to an exact start of minute or the times will not be right. > In Winquake You must test your sample rate and make sure its right. > Start all your data for winquake at HH:MM:00.0 the seconds always > being zero for your very first sample. You need cal markes from > WWV/CHU or something like that to see the top of second zero > in each minute. > Say Minute 59-60 second mark goes high at sample #1025 > use sample #1024 as the very first sample and stop the samples > at the N= The next cal mark high - one sample at the end. Winquake > should agree that the times are all right so long as you got the > sample rate right. > Winquake does not give me good times if I do not follow this idea. > I can not just start out in the middle of a minute and end just anywhere. > Without Cal marks of some standard type the times for the layman are > uncertain. > > Winquake needs a FFT waterfall display to see a movie like of > shifting frequencies over time. > Possibly in 1024 sample chunks advancing one sample for the next 1024. > Nothing fancy, Black and white and shades of gray, totally suitable. > > Regards; > geoff > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: 6 month to go From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 17:11:26 +0000 Hi all I have to repair my computer tomorrow. I am expecting stuff to happen. :-/ I have to replace the video card in my computer, the one I currently have is dieing and giving bad colors and dark screen. That is also the reason why I haven't send in new earthquakes for the past days. Besides that I have been away for two weeks now in vacation. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Period From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 21:40:38 EDT On 3 Jul 2007 03:44:57 gmvoeth@....... wrote: Winquake needs a FFT waterfall display to see a movie like of shifting frequencies over time. Possibly in 1024 sample chunks advancing one sample for the next 1024. Nothing fancy, Black and white and shades of gray, totally suitable. Hi Geoff, WinQuake does not have a waterfall display, but it does have a useful procedure for viewing a scanning spectrogram. Here is how: (1) Set "X Scale" to the time interval window you want to use for an FFT. You will get a slider button on the bottom of the screen which will allow you to view any portion of the event record. (2) From the menu bar, select "Calculate", "FFT...", "View Only". An FFT plot will appear. (3) From the menu bar, select "Window", "Arrange". You can then simultaneously view the windowed event data and the FFT for the window. (4) Use the slider button to scan through the file. As the event data slides through the window, the FFT display will update almost continuously to display the spectrum for the data displayed in the window. (Unfortunately, the scale for the FFT may change as well.) Bob PSN Station REM Locust Valley, NY ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
On 3 Jul 2007 03:44:57 gmvoeth@....... wrote:
Winquake needs a FFT=20 waterfall display to see a movie like of shifting frequencies over=20 time.
Possibly in 1024 sample chunks advancing one sample for the next=20 1024.
Nothing fancy, Black and white and shades of gray,  totally=20 suitable.
 
Hi Geoff,
 
  WinQuake does not have a waterfall display, but it does have a=20 useful procedure for viewing a scanning spectrogram. Here is how:
 
(1) Set "X Scale" to the time interval window you want to use for an FF= T.=20 You will get a slider button on the bottom of the screen which will allow yo= u to=20 view any portion of the event record.
 
(2) From the menu bar, select "Calculate", "FFT...", "View Only". An FF= T=20 plot will appear.
 
(3) From the menu bar, select "Window", "Arrange". You can then=20 simultaneously view the windowed event data and the FFT for the window.
 
(4) Use the slider button to scan through the file. As the event data=20 slides through the window, the FFT display will update almost continuously t= o=20 display the spectrum for the data displayed in the window. (Unfortunately, t= he=20 scale for the FFT may change as well.)
 
Bob
PSN Station REM
Locust Valley, NY



See what's free at AOL.com.
Subject: RE: Period From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 09:50:01 -0400 Bob, Geoff This was quite helpful as it was a question I had been wondering about as well. PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Bobhelenmcclure@....... Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 9:41 PM To: psn-l@.............. Cc: gmvoeth@........... Subject: Re: Period On 3 Jul 2007 03:44:57 gmvoeth@....... wrote: Winquake needs a FFT waterfall display to see a movie like of shifting frequencies over time. Possibly in 1024 sample chunks advancing one sample for the next 1024. Nothing fancy, Black and white and shades of gray, totally suitable. Hi Geoff, WinQuake does not have a waterfall display, but it does have a useful procedure for viewing a scanning spectrogram. Here is how: (1) Set "X Scale" to the time interval window you want to use for an FFT. You will get a slider button on the bottom of the screen which will allow you to view any portion of the event record. (2) From the menu bar, select "Calculate", "FFT...", "View Only". An FFT plot will appear. (3) From the menu bar, select "Window", "Arrange". You can then simultaneously view the windowed event data and the FFT for the window. (4) Use the slider button to scan through the file. As the event data slides through the window, the FFT display will update almost continuously to display the spectrum for the data displayed in the window. (Unfortunately, the scale for the FFT may change as well.) Bob PSN Station REM Locust Valley, NY ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- See what's free at AOL.com.
Bob, Geoff
 
This was quite helpful as it was a = question=20 I had been wondering about as well.
 
 
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 
 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of=20 Bobhelenmcclure@.......
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 9:41=20 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Cc:=20 gmvoeth@...........
Subject: Re: Period

On 3 Jul 2007 03:44:57 gmvoeth@....... wrote:
Winquake needs a = FFT=20 waterfall display to see a movie like of shifting frequencies over=20 time.
Possibly in 1024 sample chunks advancing one sample for the = next=20 1024.
Nothing fancy, Black and white and shades of gray,  = totally=20 suitable.
 
Hi Geoff,
 
  WinQuake does not have a waterfall display, but it does = have a=20 useful procedure for viewing a scanning spectrogram. Here is = how:
 
(1) Set "X Scale" to the time interval window you want to use for = an FFT.=20 You will get a slider button on the bottom of the screen which will = allow you=20 to view any portion of the event record.
 
(2) From the menu bar, select "Calculate", "FFT...", "View Only". = An FFT=20 plot will appear.
 
(3) From the menu bar, select "Window", "Arrange". You can then=20 simultaneously view the windowed event data and the FFT for the = window.
 
(4) Use the slider button to scan through the file. As the event = data=20 slides through the window, the FFT display will update almost = continuously to=20 display the spectrum for the data displayed in the window. = (Unfortunately, the=20 scale for the FFT may change as well.)
 
Bob
PSN Station REM
Locust Valley, NY



See what's free at AOL.com.=20
Subject: Earthquake in Canada! From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:07:26 +0000 Hi all A rare event just happend, a earthquake in Canada, http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D48916 Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Earthquake in Canada! From: "Michael Kimzey" mckimzey@........... Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:17:10 -0400 There was just one in Mexico, also. The one in Canada may also be in the signal I recorded. This will be a first for me, but I will get to work with 2 P and S' on the same signal. Nice. - Mike __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Earthquake in Canada! From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 04:04:49 +0000 Hi all I am looking at the raw date from emsc, is it possible that the earthquake in Canada is actually a false one ? USGS does not list it as current, the raw data from emsc can be seen here, http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Dmsg Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Earthquake in Canada! From: "Michael Kimzey" mckimzey@........... Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:42:55 -0400 >I am looking at the raw date from emsc, is it possible that the >earthquake in Canada is actually a false one ? USGS does not list it as >current, the raw data from emsc can be seen here, >http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=current&sub=msg I suspect that it might be a false alarm. The main screen doesn't even list it. The linked page does have that disclaimer that it's raw data only... - Mike __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Did I feel it??? From: tchannel1@............ Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 10:51:57 -0600 This is a new story: My wife Linda (IMMG Museum) came upstairs from = our basement last night and said she was sure she felt the earth move! = I was standing in front of the fridge, looking at the last two cupcakes, = "Should I eat the two cupcakes, or have some nice carrots? Let's see, = if I choose the cupcakes, I could eat just one, at 250 calories=3D30 = mins on the treadmill, or I could eat 20 carrots, and save that 30 = mins?" Just as I was pouring a glass of milk to go with the two = cupcakes, she grabbed my arm, nearly spilling my milk, and proclaimed, = "I just felt what I thought was an earthquake!" Here it is in her own words: But first, the timeline, and these are fairly accurate and true: 01:12:00 Linda felt the earth move. 01:12:15 Linda got up and walked up to the helicorder and noted the = time, but saw no earthquake signal. 01:14:00 Linda walked upstairs to tell me. 01:16:12 I put down my cupcakes and walked downstairs and saw the = earthquake begin; about 12 seconds of the signal were already traced on = the screen. 01:16:01 The P wave arrived in Boise Idaho. Linda writing: "I was sitting on the couch in the basement when I felt = ever so slightly lightheaded and the couch felt as if the ground swelled = a tiny bit underneath it about 5 or 6 times. The movement was nearly = undetectable (I'm sure if I had been standing or moving around, I would = not have felt it), and the ground swells passed at about the same rate = as a heartbeat. I am confident I really felt something because I = thought to myself, "Huh, how strange this sensation is . . . I wonder = whether that was an earthquake . . . weird, I thought there would be = more distance between waves . . . they are actually pretty close = together, exactly like ripples spreading out in a pond when a stone is = thrown in; it kind of feels like when we used to sit in our sailboat = when the wind was quiet and feel the water gently rock the boat."=20 Is there any kind of wave I would have felt before the P wave actually = arrived? Yes, I was awake, not dreaming! Linda and Ted
This is a new story:   My = wife Linda=20 (IMMG Museum) came upstairs from our basement last night and said she = was sure=20 she felt the earth move!  I was standing in front of the fridge, = looking at=20 the last two cupcakes,  "Should I eat the two cupcakes, or have = some nice=20 carrots?  Let's see, if I choose the cupcakes, I could eat just = one, at 250=20 calories=3D30 mins on the treadmill, or I could eat 20 carrots, and save = that 30=20 mins?"  Just as I was pouring a glass of milk to go with the = two=20 cupcakes, she grabbed my arm, nearly spilling my milk, and = proclaimed, "I=20 just felt what I thought was an earthquake!"
 
Here it is in her own = words:
 
But first, the timeline, and these are = fairly=20 accurate and true:
01:12:00 Linda felt the earth = move.
01:12:15 Linda got up and = walked up to the=20 helicorder and noted the time, but saw no earthquake = signal.
01:14:00 Linda walked upstairs to tell=20 me.
01:16:12 I put down my cupcakes and = walked=20 downstairs and saw the earthquake begin; about 12 seconds of the signal = were=20 already traced on the screen.
01:16:01 The P wave arrived = in Boise=20 Idaho.
 
Linda writing:  "I was sitting on = the couch in=20 the basement when I felt ever so slightly lightheaded and the = couch felt as=20 if the ground swelled a tiny bit underneath it about 5 or 6 = times. =20 The movement was nearly undetectable (I'm sure if I had been standing or = moving=20 around, I would not have felt it), and the ground swells passed at about = the=20 same rate as a heartbeat.  I am confident I really felt something = because I=20 thought to myself, "Huh, how strange this sensation is . . . I wonder = whether=20 that was an earthquake . . . weird, I thought there would be more = distance=20 between waves . . . they are actually pretty close together, = exactly like=20 ripples spreading out in a pond when a stone is thrown in; it kind of = feels like=20 when we used to sit in our sailboat when the wind was quiet and = feel the=20 water gently rock the boat." 
 
Is there any kind of wave I would have = felt before=20 the P wave actually arrived?  Yes, I was awake, not = dreaming!
 
Linda and = Ted
Subject: Re: Did I feel it??? From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 11:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Ted Before we discuss this further we need the following information: Just how many cupcakes had Linda had? What was in the cupcakes? Perhaps the USGS could buy this recipe from her and finally predict earthquakes??? Enjoy life!!! Pete --- tchannel1@............ wrote: > This is a new story: My wife Linda (IMMG Museum) > came upstairs from our basement last night and said > she was sure she felt the earth move! I was > standing in front of the fridge, looking at the last > two cupcakes, "Should I eat the two cupcakes, or > have some nice carrots? Let's see, if I choose the > cupcakes, I could eat just one, at 250 calories=30 > mins on the treadmill, or I could eat 20 carrots, > and save that 30 mins?" Just as I was pouring a > glass of milk to go with the two cupcakes, she > grabbed my arm, nearly spilling my milk, and > proclaimed, "I just felt what I thought was an > earthquake!" > > Here it is in her own words: > > But first, the timeline, and these are fairly > accurate and true: > 01:12:00 Linda felt the earth move. > 01:12:15 Linda got up and walked up to the > helicorder and noted the time, but saw no earthquake > signal. > 01:14:00 Linda walked upstairs to tell me. > 01:16:12 I put down my cupcakes and walked > downstairs and saw the earthquake begin; about 12 > seconds of the signal were already traced on the > screen. > 01:16:01 The P wave arrived in Boise Idaho. > > Linda writing: "I was sitting on the couch in the > basement when I felt ever so slightly lightheaded > and the couch felt as if the ground swelled a tiny > bit underneath it about 5 or 6 times. The movement > was nearly undetectable (I'm sure if I had been > standing or moving around, I would not have felt > it), and the ground swells passed at about the same > rate as a heartbeat. I am confident I really felt > something because I thought to myself, "Huh, how > strange this sensation is . . . I wonder whether > that was an earthquake . . . weird, I thought there > would be more distance between waves . . . they are > actually pretty close together, exactly like ripples > spreading out in a pond when a stone is thrown in; > it kind of feels like when we used to sit in our > sailboat when the wind was quiet and feel the water > gently rock the boat." > > Is there any kind of wave I would have felt before > the P wave actually arrived? Yes, I was awake, not > dreaming! > > Linda and Ted ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Did I feel it??? From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:44:20 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/06, tchannel1@............ writes: > Is there any kind of wave I would have felt before the P wave actually > arrived? Hi Ted, No, but she may well have experienced a local quake. What was recorded on the seismometer? Remember that you may also feel the effects of wind. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/06, tchannel1@............ writes:

Is there any kind of wave I wou= ld have felt before the P wave actually arrived? 


Hi Ted,

       No, but she may well have experienced a= local quake. What was recorded on the seismometer? Remember that you may al= so feel the effects of wind.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Did I feel it??? From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 07:05:15 +1200 tchannel1@............ wrote: > > This is a new story: My wife Linda (IMMG Museum) came upstairs from > our basement last night and said she was sure she felt the earth move! > I was standing in front of the fridge, looking at the last two > cupcakes, "Should I eat the two cupcakes, or have some nice carrots? > Let's see, if I choose the cupcakes, I could eat just one, at 250 > calories=30 mins on the treadmill, or I could eat 20 carrots, and save > that 30 mins?" Just as I was pouring a glass of milk to go with the two > cupcakes, she grabbed my arm, nearly spilling my milk, and > proclaimed, "I just felt what I thought was an earthquake!" > > Here it is in her own words: > > But first, the timeline, and these are fairly accurate and true: > 01:12:00 Linda felt the earth move. > 01:12:15 Linda got up and walked up to the helicorder and noted the > time, but saw no earthquake signal. > 01:14:00 Linda walked upstairs to tell me. > 01:16:12 I put down my cupcakes and walked downstairs and saw the > earthquake begin; about 12 seconds of the signal were already traced on > the screen. > 01:16:01 The P wave arrived in Boise Idaho. > > Linda writing: "I was sitting on the couch in the basement when I felt > ever so slightly lightheaded and the couch felt as if the ground swelled > a tiny bit underneath it about 5 or 6 times. The movement was nearly > undetectable (I'm sure if I had been standing or moving around, I would > not have felt it), and the ground swells passed at about the same rate > as a heartbeat. I am confident I really felt something because I > thought to myself, "Huh, how strange this sensation is . . . I wonder > whether that was an earthquake . . . weird, I thought there would be > more distance between waves . . . they are actually pretty close > together, exactly like ripples spreading out in a pond when a stone is > thrown in; it kind of feels like when we used to sit in our sailboat > when the wind was quiet and feel the water gently rock the boat." > > Is there any kind of wave I would have felt before the P wave actually > arrived? Yes, I was awake, not dreaming! > > Linda and Ted This from the USGS: DELETED: Event UU 07040118 == EVENT DELETED NOTIFICATION == ***This event has been deleted after review by a seismologist.*** Geographic coordinates: 37.539N, 112.508W Magnitude: 1.7 Universal Time (UTC): 4 Jul 2007 01:17:19 Time near the Epicenter: 3 Jul 2007 19:17:19 Location with respect to nearby cities: 11 km (7 miles) NNW (348 degrees) of Alton, UT 14 km (9 miles) SSW (207 degrees) of Hatch, UT 24 km (15 miles) NNE (20 degrees) of Glendale, UT 162 km (100 miles) ENE (59 degrees) of Mesquite, NV 284 km (176 miles) ENE (57 degrees) of Las Vegas, NV Curiouser and curiouser. I've never felt even the smallest quake which didn't show up on the instrumentation and I wouldn't expect to feel a 1.7 unless it was very shallow and right here. -- regards Mark Robinson ------------- 06 Jul 1932 Kenneth Grahame, author of "The Wind in the Willows", died. 06 Jul 1936 Dave Allen born. 06 Jul 1946 Sylvester Stallone born. 06 Jul 1954 Elvis Presley recorded his first single, "That's all right mama" backed with "Blue Moon of Kentucky". It did not chart. 06 Jul 1957 Althea Gibson wins women's title at Wimbledon. 06 Jul 1973 Queen released their first sinlge "Keep yourself alive". 06 Jul 1987 Crowded House meet with Prime Minister David Lange for a chat about about the New Zealand recording industry. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Did I feel it??? From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 04:05:09 -0700 I got news for you. The ladies have great imaginations and I have repeatedly been told that the two remaining females in my family (we are getting old) that they feel earthquakes when I record absolutely nothing. I have noticed in the past that boom like sounds will rattle windows and such and never record as any kind of EQ. I have a suspicion that females are more sensitive than males to vibrations and such and if they have no seismology training want to call just about anything that shake rattles or rolls an Earthquake. It is best to keep your hobby stuff within the realm of those interested in the science or you will be pestered by false alerts...especially when dealing with females. This is just as it seems to me and might not be a reality since it would take a research in Forensic Social-Psychology on this subject of false perceptions to be sure. Regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: The Magic From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 10:43:29 -0600 Hi All, Linda, would not tell me how many cupcakes she ate, and as you = might have guessed they are all gone now. She nor I, have felt anything = that could be considered an earthquake in the last few days. She is often at the computer, by the Sensor, when people visit the = museum. One question she gets, is "How does it work" She understands = how it is built and all the parts, but when the questions focuses on the = magnetic field and the coil, she can only discuss their interaction, = creates a current, like "Magic" I have seen a formula explaining the three factors, The Field, The Coil, = and The Velocity.......... Could someone tell me or direct me to an explanation of "The Magic" = which is really the basic for this type of sensor. Thanks, Ted
Hi All,  Linda, would not tell me = how many=20 cupcakes she ate, and as you might have guessed they are all gone=20 now.  She nor I, have felt anything that could be considered = an=20 earthquake in the last few days.
 
She is often at the computer, by the = Sensor, when=20 people visit the museum.  One question she gets, is "How does it=20 work"  She understands how it is built and all the parts, but when = the=20 questions focuses on the magnetic field and the coil, she can only = discuss their=20 interaction, creates a current, like "Magic"
 
I have seen a formula explaining the = three factors,=20 The Field, The Coil, and The Velocity..........
Could someone tell me or direct me to = an=20 explanation of "The Magic"  which is really the basic for this type = of=20 sensor.
 
Thanks, Ted
Subject: Re: The Magic From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 18:53:23 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/07, tchannel1@............ writes: > She is often at the computer, by the Sensor, when people visit the museum. > One question she gets, is "How does it work" She understands how it is > built and all the parts, but when the questions focuses on the magnetic field and > the coil, she can only discuss their interaction, creates a current, like > "Magic" Hi Ted, Movement of a coil in a magnetic changing field does not produce a current, but a voltage across the ends of the coil. This voltage is proportional to the number of turns, to the area of the coil and to the rate of change of the field. A current flowing in a conductor has a ring magnetic field assocciated with it. If you use a circular solenoid, the turns add up to give an axial agnetic field. I use a school demo system having quad NdFeB magnets on two parallel mild steel backplates. I use a relay coil on a handle connected to back to back red and green LEDs. You move the coil one way and the red LED lights, the other way and the green LED lights. If you move the coil more rapidly, the LEDs glow a lot brighter. Why not make up a similar model for the museum? > I have seen a formula explaining the three factors, The Field, The Coil, > and The Velocity.......... > Could someone tell me or direct me to an explanation of "The Magic" which > is really the basic for this type of sensor. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/07, tchannel1@............ writes:

She is often at the computer, b= y the Sensor, when people visit the museum.  One question she gets, is=20= "How does it work"  She understands how it is built and all the parts,=20= but when the questions focuses on the magnetic field and the coil, she can o= nly discuss their interaction, creates a current, like "Magic"

Hi Ted,
      
       Movement of a coil in a magnetic changi= ng field does not produce a current, but a voltage across the ends of the co= il. This voltage is proportional to the number of turns, to the area of the=20= coil and to the rate of change of the field.
       A current flowing in a conductor has a=20= ring magnetic field assocciated with it. If you use a circular solenoid, the= turns add up to give an axial agnetic field.

    I use a school demo system having quad NdFeB magnets=20= on two parallel mild steel backplates. I use a relay coil on a handle connec= ted to back to back red and green LEDs. You move the coil one way and the re= d LED lights, the other way and the green LED lights. If you move the coil m= ore rapidly, the LEDs glow a lot brighter. Why not make up a similar model f= or the museum?

I have seen a formula explain= ing the three factors, The Field, The Coil, and The Velocity..........
Could someone tell me or direct me to an explanation of "The Magic"  w= hich is really the basic for this type of sensor.


       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: The Magic From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 17:52:53 -0600 Hi Chris, That is a good idea..........The visitors to the Museum are = mostly tour groups of kids...They love to touch things, and maybe I = could work something like this up. I think that would explain the = Magic very well. Thanks, Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ChrisAtUpw@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 4:53 PM Subject: Re: The Magic In a message dated 2007/07/07, tchannel1@............ writes: She is often at the computer, by the Sensor, when people visit the = museum. One question she gets, is "How does it work" She understands = how it is built and all the parts, but when the questions focuses on the = magnetic field and the coil, she can only discuss their interaction, = creates a current, like "Magic" Hi Ted,=20 =20 Movement of a coil in a magnetic changing field does not = produce a current, but a voltage across the ends of the coil. This = voltage is proportional to the number of turns, to the area of the coil = and to the rate of change of the field.=20 A current flowing in a conductor has a ring magnetic field = assocciated with it. If you use a circular solenoid, the turns add up to = give an axial agnetic field. I use a school demo system having quad NdFeB magnets on two = parallel mild steel backplates. I use a relay coil on a handle connected = to back to back red and green LEDs. You move the coil one way and the = red LED lights, the other way and the green LED lights. If you move the = coil more rapidly, the LEDs glow a lot brighter. Why not make up a = similar model for the museum? I have seen a formula explaining the three factors, The Field, The = Coil, and The Velocity.......... Could someone tell me or direct me to an explanation of "The Magic" = which is really the basic for this type of sensor. Regards, Chris Chapman
Hi Chris,  That is a good = idea..........The=20 visitors to the Museum are mostly tour groups of kids...They love to = touch=20 things, and maybe I could work something like this up.   I = think that=20 would explain the Magic very well.
Thanks, Ted
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 = 4:53=20 PM
Subject: Re: The Magic

In a=20 message dated 2007/07/07, tchannel1@............=20 writes:

She is often at the computer, by the Sensor, when people = visit=20 the museum.  One question she gets, is "How does it work"  = She=20 understands how it is built and all the parts, but when the = questions=20 focuses on the magnetic field and the coil, she can only discuss = their=20 interaction, creates a current, like "Magic"


Hi Ted,=20
      =20
       Movement of a coil in a = magnetic=20 changing field does not produce a current, but a voltage across the = ends of=20 the coil. This voltage is proportional to the number of turns, to the = area of=20 the coil and to the rate of change of the field.=20
       A current flowing in a = conductor has=20 a ring magnetic field assocciated with it. If you use a circular = solenoid, the=20 turns add up to give an axial agnetic field.

    = I use a school demo system = having quad NdFeB=20 magnets on two parallel mild steel backplates. I use a relay coil on a = handle=20 connected to back to back red and green LEDs. You move the coil one = way and=20 the red LED lights, the other way and the green LED lights. If you = move the=20 coil more rapidly, the LEDs glow a lot brighter. Why not make up a = similar=20 model for the museum?

I have=20 seen a formula explaining the three factors, The Field, The Coil, = and The=20 Velocity..........
Could someone tell me or direct me to an = explanation of "The=20 Magic"  which is really the basic for this type of=20 sensor.

      =20 Regards,

       Chris = Chapman=20 Subject: Re: The Magic From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 00:55:45 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/08 , tchannel1@............ writes: > Hi Chris, That is a good idea..........The visitors to the Museum are > mostly tour groups of kids...They love to touch things, and maybe I could work > something like this up. I think that would explain the Magic very well. > Thanks, Ted Hi Ted, See the drawing at http://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/lehman/LehmanNdFeBSensor2.jpg for the basic idea. Regards, Chris In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/08 , tchannel1@............ writes:

Hi Chris,  That is a good=20= idea..........The visitors to the Museum are mostly tour groups of kids...Th= ey love to touch things, and maybe I could work something like this up. = ;  I think that would explain the Magic very well.
Thanks, Ted


Hi Ted,

       See the drawing at http://jclahr.com/sc= ience/psn/chapman/lehman/LehmanNdFeBSensor2.jpg for the basic idea.

       Regards,

       Chris Subject: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 21:59:12 -0700 Hi All You PSN Fanatics (Im One Too); Here is a scientific example of a waterfall display that might be usful in one way or another to us Amateures. The only differences are that the time needs to be on the Y axis and Freq. on the X axis. In Science/Math time is always assigned to X axis but in reality you make it to suit your own tastes according to importance. This amounts to signature analysis where the data forms a picture. Over time you build a database of known events so that in the future you can simply look at the signature to tell pretty much what your looking at and give the event a classification. Black and White and shades of gray are better than this colorful stuff because not all people (especially males) have perfect color vision. There should be a range of signatures for events such as tornadoes and hurricanse and wave action and seismic events. You most probably do not need more than 1024 discrete frequencies and in an fft algorithim the number of samples you use in your conversion determins the frequency resolution. the FFT is an energy thing I think meaning the area under a curve. It can be of use to us if amateures are serious minded hobbiests. I lack the ability to program or I would do this myself. This is sort of a challange to all you amateures to develop a program that will take text or raw data in the form of bytes or words or text to make a water fall display in B/W 16 shades of gray with each time frame jumping only one sample at a time. Distrubute this analysis program freely to all seismic amateures and build a data base of known signatures that can be used by anyone in the PSN. Regards; Geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 06:46:29 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/08, gmvoeth@........... writes: > Hi All You PSN Fanatics (Im One Too); > Here is a scientific example of a waterfall display > that might be usful in one way or another to us > Amateures. The only differences are that the > time needs to be on the Y axis and Freq. > on the X axis. In Science/Math time is always assigned to > X axis but in reality you make it to suit your own tastes > according to importance. Alternatively convert your files to a format which can be read by such a program? I seem to remember that this has been done? See http://www.radiosky.com/skypipeishere.html Why use B/W when color gives a better display? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/08, gmvoeth@........... writes:

Hi All You PSN Fanatics (Im One= Too);
Here is a scientific example of a waterfall display
that might be usful in one way or another to us
Amateures. The only differences are that the
time needs to be on the Y axis and Freq.
on the X axis. In Science/Math time is always assigned to
X axis but in reality you make it to suit your own tastes
according to importance.


       Alternatively convert your files to a f= ormat which can be read by such a program? I seem to remember that this has=20= been done?  See = http://www.radiosky.com/skypipeishere.html
       Why use B/W when color gives a better d= isplay?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 07:01:56 -0700 This program seems to not use data files but wants you to build a custom A/D that will be read by the program itself. Not sure a sound card will take sample rates as low as 20Hz because most sound hardware has a capacitor input that rejects DC or freqs below the sense of hearing. It would be so nice to have this feature in Winquake to do an Analysis of file data in TXT/8/12/16/24 bit form or text form all you have to do is limit the frq between Dc and 5 Hz or so and make atleast 1024 samples per spectrum line. I have seen the routine in the library at ASU to FFT and there seems to be several ways. The best i like seems to result in the final results with the number of samples to be worked setting the resolution over the band. These people who write these books on FFT are oriented only to their own kind so if you do not know calculus or higher transforming their ideas into a computer program is very difficult. But I have in the past done this successfully myself. On a very small scale with a VIC20 machine running 10MHz. You need to take the first 1024 samples then make an imaginary set from the same ones then do a butterfly operation (some kind of fancy math) that results in a backward spectrum with each sample now representing a frequency band. Then you straighten out the results to get the low freq at the low sample number position. The final results is the freq range represented within the sample set chosen and that would be line one. Then you advance one sample in the data and do the same for the next contiguous 1024 samples. This is repeated until you have built a picture of your entire data file. The sample rate determins the freq limits I think. Why do not more people take an interest in the math and programming and hardware because seismology is just a fine specialty and I think more serious PROs should take an interest in fostering human interests in all lines of Science. You got to be an MD or equiv before you can get into forensic medicine ot Toxicology but this Seismology stuff is non license stuff and great way to learn many facets of science. Please someone with Math background make us a Basic Program like QBASIC or POWERBASIC to do one line of FFT and I will take it from there to make the whole program. I did this once myself but did not record the final program and would have to learn everything all over again to do this program again. A Burgler stole the VIC20 laptop with all my programs several years ago so those programs are lost. There is more to amateur stuff then just watching the waves and building things with your hands. It is a great chance to play general science and bring most everything together to see how it works with NO MYSTRIES. There seems to be effort to compartmentize information in the USA because of its capitalistic nature forcing one to become a college goon before you are able to do anything academic. The truth of the matter is to get a formal degree the system studies you as much as you study your subject so there is no real privacy or artisic freedom for the adventerous academic without government awareness. The Counter Intelligence peoples do not want Academic Freedom in the USA. Even tho we are playing with this harmless passive seismology stuff. I have come to realize that in some European Countries they have laws amounting to NEPLEONIC LAW which basically says everything is illegal except that which is specified by government. These kinds of forces are what we up against even in this relatively harmless area of seismology. If there is no common place to get knowledge we must make it ourselves even if it angers the powers that be. It is no accident we can not find a simple BASIC FFT source code with logic trees etc in laymen terms for our interest area. Everyone is trying to keep secrets or make money. For the sake of the evolution of science lets please gather together a collection of utility programs free for universal use in this PSN group. I am assuming PSN means Public like WORLD PUBLIC and not just California Public. One LAST thing for NOW. Black and White and shades of gray is by far the best for resolution and universal readability. If a person is lucky to get a totally black and white monitor or green you will see no sharper images than with such an analog electrostatic scanning device. The military used to preferr these over color since it used to be all male (for warships) and males have the highest incident of color blindness. Regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 10:45:54 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/08, gmvoeth@........... writes: > This program seems to not use data files but wants you to build a custom > A/D that > will be read by the program itself. Hi Geoff, I am absolutely certain that I have seen seismic data on waterfall displays, but I can't remeber where. Certainly they were on line. That program will take binary data files, like amaseis? Have a look at www.vlf.it ? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/08, gmvoeth@........... writes:

This program seems to not use d= ata files but wants you to build a custom A/D that
will be read by the program itself.


Hi Geoff,

       I am absolutely certain that I have see= n seismic data on waterfall displays, but I can't remeber where. Certainly t= hey were on line. That program will take binary data files, like amaseis?
       Have a look at www.vlf.it ?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: Mike Price mprice@........ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:39:07 -0700 Geoff, The FFT algorithm is well documented and implementations abound. The FFT is widely used by anyone interested in exploring data in the frequency domain and it would be hard to find an algorithm better explained or more readily available. A Google search for "fft source code" generates 1.3M hits; indeed, the first one is www.fftw.org which has downloadable C source and links to many other sites containing source in several languages. You can find a basic implementation at: http://logosfoundation.org/fft/fft.html for example. The notion that access to FFT code is somehow restricted is misguided. Mike Geoffrey wrote: > This program seems to not use data files > but wants you to build a custom A/D that > will be read by the program itself. > Not sure a sound card will take sample rates > as low as 20Hz because most sound hardware > has a capacitor input that rejects DC or freqs > below the sense of hearing. > > It would be so nice to have this feature in Winquake to > do an Analysis of file data in TXT/8/12/16/24 bit form > or text form all you have to do is limit the frq > between Dc and 5 Hz or so and make atleast > 1024 samples per spectrum line. > > I have seen the routine in the library at ASU > to FFT and there seems to be several ways. > The best i like seems to result in the final > results with the number of samples to be worked > setting the resolution over the band. > > These people who write these books on FFT are oriented > only to their own kind so if you do not know calculus or higher > transforming their ideas into a computer program is very difficult. > > But I have in the past done this successfully myself. > On a very small scale with a VIC20 machine running 10MHz. > > You need to take the first 1024 samples then make an imaginary > set from the same ones then do a butterfly operation > (some kind of fancy math) that results in a backward > spectrum with each sample now representing a frequency band. > > Then you straighten out the results to get the low freq at the low > sample number position. > > The final results is the freq range represented within the sample set > chosen > and that would be line one. > > Then you advance one sample in the data and do the same for the > next contiguous 1024 samples. > > This is repeated until you have built a picture of your entire data file. > > The sample rate determins the freq limits I think. > > Why do not more people take an interest > in the math and programming and hardware > because seismology is just a fine specialty > and I think more serious PROs should take an > interest in fostering human interests in all lines of Science. > > You got to be an MD or equiv before you can > get into forensic medicine ot Toxicology but this > Seismology stuff is non license stuff and great way to > learn many facets of science. > > Please someone with Math background make us a > Basic Program like QBASIC or POWERBASIC > to do one line of FFT and I will take it from there > to make the whole program. > > I did this once myself but did not record the final > program and would have to learn everything all over > again to do this program again. > A Burgler stole the VIC20 laptop with all my programs > several years ago so those programs are lost. > > There is more to amateur stuff then just watching the waves > and building things with your hands. It is a great chance > to play general science and bring most everything together > to see how it works with NO MYSTRIES. > > There seems to be effort to compartmentize information > in the USA because of its capitalistic nature forcing one > to become a college goon before you are able to > do anything academic. The truth of the matter > is to get a formal degree the system studies you as much > as you study your subject so there is no real privacy > or artisic freedom for the adventerous academic without > government awareness. The Counter Intelligence peoples > do not want Academic Freedom in the USA. > Even tho we are playing with this harmless passive seismology stuff. > > I have come to realize that in some European Countries > they have laws amounting to NEPLEONIC LAW which basically > says everything is illegal except that which is specified by government. > > These kinds of forces are what we up against even in this > relatively harmless area of seismology. > > If there is no common place to get knowledge we must make it ourselves > even if it angers the powers that be. > > It is no accident we can not find a simple BASIC FFT source code > with logic trees etc in laymen terms for our interest area. > Everyone is trying to keep secrets or make money. > > For the sake of the evolution of science lets > please gather together a collection of utility programs > free for universal use in this PSN group. > > I am assuming PSN means Public like WORLD PUBLIC and not just > California Public. > > One LAST thing for NOW. > Black and White and shades of gray is by far the best for resolution > and universal readability. > If a person is lucky to get a totally black and white monitor or green > you will see no sharper images than with such an analog electrostatic > scanning device. > The military used to preferr these over color since it used to be all > male > (for warships) > and males have the highest incident of color blindness. > > Regards; > geoff > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: FFT BASIC Source Code From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 12:41:22 -0700 Hello PSN; I found my very old notes from ASU Nobel Science Library regarding FFT basic program and I think it shows the source material it was found in. Can someone who understands FFT please look at this and comment to me at my address gmvoeth@........... or to PSN or to Both. I intend to make a DOS executable program to use 8 bit data that will display the results in 640X480X256 if at all possible. I will share my results if things look good. The only question I have is that about real and imaginary. I assume real means sine of the data and imaginary means cosine of the data and the angle relates to the sample rate vs the desired frequency and summed acxcording to the sample number and that the complete butterfly operation needs to be done 1024 times for each desired freq to look at. The bandwidth of each freq will be related to the number of samples processed. What I do not understand is how can you measure frequency unless you start out in phase with the freq you are looking for ?? Basic Source code for the FFT is very hard to find. Out of that whole library in the 1980s this is the only basic example I found. Maybe one of you experts can tell me if this program is honestly workable and the results will be proper ? I understand to save space you can use the same memory locations as the original data to put the results into but it (results) will be reversed and you need to start your freq display using the highest result (N) as the lowest Frq in the display (N). This computation although it is called FFT is very labor intensive and the time will increase exponentially to get the results according to the number of samples you process each line. If Im not mistaken it took me several minutes with the 10MHz VIC20 chip CPU to complete a single spectrum line using only 1024 samples. Today my machine is P4 3GHz so I should expect seconds instead of minutes. Notes: ***************************** http://gmvoeth.home.mchsi.com/FFT_Basic_Source.bmp ****************************** Regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: FFT Waterfall display From: Larry Conklin lconklin@............ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 15:56:30 -0400 A couple of years ago I experimented with adding a real-time FFT waterfall display to my home brew data logging and display program. I got the waterfall working just fine but there is something wrong with the FFT calculation that I never got around to debugging. The current discussion may motivate me to take another look at it. If I manage to get something working, it wouldn't be much additional effort to adapt the code into an independent program that would take PSN files as a data source. Larry Conklin Liverpool, NY lconklin@............ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:36:02 -0700 Wonderful and thanks; It has been a few years since I looked and I never found anything like that. It (FFT) was classified Secret in the US Navy in the 1970s but after I saw my "secret" machine sold to foreign countries in a commissiond officers magazine (My dad was a retired officer) I no longer accepted the navys classification. for that machine. I now realize they want to keep it a secret only till they market the machine wherever. The secrecy is more for economic (manufacturing) than military reasons. We were probably only testing the device for Diagnostic Retreival Company. A general purpose computer like mine that works in a serial fashion can not match the speed of that parallel computing machine. The macine in question was the AN/SQR17 which did all this stuff in almost real time through dedicated circuitry. They used it in conjunction with the SKR4 telemetric receiver which was relayed sonobuoy data through the LAMPS helicopter. This machine SQR17 was all blue and blue means training and not war stuff. AN means Joint Army Navy which means the electronic circuitry is standard to both services. Everything I know is from 1970s and then it was old news so I am not worrying too much about talking today. One of my My old Ships the USS LONG BEACH is now atomic razor blades. The other Two Ellison and Willard Keith were sold to Turkey or South America and the only remaining one still alive might be the very old Bainbridge. I was on three of the several nuclear surface ships the only one i never boarded was the Truxton. I think you will not see any more because nuclear power is quite dangerous those ships are very fragile. It was funny when the russian trawlers would pick up the sonobuoys and you could hear them mutter over what they just found in their nets. Wish I could understand their words. Something like "More Alien Crap from the ocean". :-) I am now called Mentally Ill by the USA even tho I feel just the same now as when I was 17 and in Great Lakes Illinoise being poisoned with flouride treatment by a bad bad Dental Technician. Over xrayed by bad bad xray technicians. Even had to drink JP5 in our water once. Forced to go to etiquitte training because refused to go to church. I find it amazing we enlisted squids live as long as we do to enjoy any seismology at all. USW...the classification goes something like this: Confidential==Capabilities and limitations frequencies technical stuff etc.. (just about everyone) Secret==those things that might cause harm to the USA (Enlisted Stuff) Top Secret==those things that will cause harm to the USA (Commissioned Officers) Other agencies use different terms for the same ideas or spell out the dangers involved. I have never seen anything that was called top secret and only those things i needed to know at those times. I feel I have no knowledge valuable to the USA today. Everything I can think of except intellegence data bases is obsolete. And those are Protected libraries I no longer have access to. But we can make and share our own seismic stuff. In case you are wondering about my loyalties; I love MY Country (The one with Protected InAlienable Rights). regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT BASIC Source Code From: Ben Bradley benbradley@............... Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 17:58:17 -0500 Geoffrey wrote: > Hello PSN; > > I found my very old notes from ASU Nobel Science Library regarding > FFT basic program and I think it shows > the source material it was found in. > > Can someone who understands FFT please look at this > and comment to me at my address gmvoeth@........... or to PSN or to Both. You can get a better understanding of the Fourier Transform and FFT from many places online. Here's one: http://www.dspguide.com/ > > I intend to make a DOS executable program to use > 8 bit data that will display the results in 640X480X256 if at all > possible. I will share my results if things look good. > > The only question I have is that about real and imaginary. > > I assume real means sine of the data and imaginary means cosine of the > data As I recall, Cosine is the "real" part and Sine is the "Imaginary" part. > and the angle relates to the sample rate vs the desired frequency and > summed acxcording to the sample number and that the complete butterfly > operation needs > to be done 1024 times for each desired freq to look at. > The bandwidth of each freq will be related to the number of samples > processed. What I do not understand is how > can you measure frequency unless you start out in phase > with the freq you are looking for ?? The complex Fourier Transform tells you both the frequency and the phase. It may seem like magic, but there's a graphical way of understanding it. > > Basic Source code for the FFT is very hard to find. I suppose BASIC is now considered obsolete, except for some of the Visual Basics found in Microsoft products, and even those may have been phased out by now. > > Out of that whole library in the 1980s this is the only basic example > I found. > > Maybe one of you experts can tell me if this program is honestly workable > and the results will be proper ? > > I understand to save space you can use > the same memory locations as the original data > to put the results into but it (results) will be reversed > and you need to start your freq display using the highest > result (N) as the lowest Frq in the display (N). > > This computation although it is called FFT is very > labor intensive and the time will increase exponentially > to get the results according to the number of samples > you process each line. > > If Im not mistaken it took me several minutes with the 10MHz VIC20 > chip CPU > to complete a single spectrum line using only 1024 samples. > Today my machine is P4 3GHz so I should expect seconds instead of > minutes. An optimized, compiled program on a modern PC should be able to do a 1024 point complex FFT in a very few milliseconds. This speed is helpful if you want to create waterfall plots, which (as I understand it) are made with many repeated FFT's over time. > > Notes: > ***************************** > http://gmvoeth.home.mchsi.com/FFT_Basic_Source.bmp Actually, that's a FORTRAN source. Offhand it looks okay to me, but don't take my word for it. > > ****************************** > > Regards; > geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: Mike Price mprice@........ Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 16:06:31 -0700 Geoff, A 3.2 GHz Pentium 4 with a vectorized FFT implementation using SSE2 (special extended 128-bit MMX instruction set of the Pentium) can execute a 1024 point FFT in well under 1mS. A 4096 FFT can be executed in under 6mS. This would blow the doors off any ca. 1972 implementation even if done entirely in HW. The number of points needed in an FFT is driven by the desired frequency resolution (bin width = sample_frequency / number_of_points). You may be able to get away with fewer number of points if you don't need fine frequency resolution. The FFT produces a complex number: a + bi. Think of it as a vector. You get magnitude and phase as follows: mag = sqrt( a^2 + b^2 ) phase = atan ( b / a ) Mike Price Geoffrey wrote: > Wonderful and thanks; > It has been a few years since I looked > and I never found anything like that. > > It (FFT) was classified Secret in the US Navy in the 1970s > but after I saw my "secret" machine sold to foreign > countries in a commissiond officers magazine > (My dad was a retired officer) I no longer accepted the navys > classification. > for that machine. > I now realize they want to keep it a secret > only till they market the machine wherever. > The secrecy is more for economic (manufacturing) > than military reasons. We were probably only > testing the device for Diagnostic Retreival Company. > > A general purpose computer like mine that works in a serial fashion > can not match the speed of that parallel computing machine. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 23:01:01 EDT The Cornell Lab of Ornithology offers a free program for displaying waterfall spectrograms of WAVE format sound files, which although intended primarily for the study of bird songs, would be useful for earthquakes as well. All you have to do is convert your event files to 16-bit monaural WAVE format and use Cornell's "Raven Lite 1.0" application. It is free, and can display spectrograms in color or black-and-white. See: _http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html_ (http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html) Bob ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
  The Cornell Lab of Ornithology offers a free program for display= ing=20 waterfall spectrograms of WAVE format sound files, which although intended=20 primarily for the study of bird songs, would be useful for earthquakes as we= ll.=20 All you have to do is convert your event files to 16-bit monaural WAVE=20 format and use Cornell's "Raven Lite 1.0" application. It is free, and can=20 display spectrograms in color or black-and-white. See:
 
  http://www.birds.= cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html
 
Bob



See what's free a= t AOL.com.
Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display From: "Michael Kimzey" mckimzey@........... Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:23:35 -0400 >The Cornell Lab of Ornithology offers a free program for displaying >waterfall spectrograms of WAVE format sound files, which although intended >primarily >for the study of bird songs, would be useful for earthquakes as well. All >you >have to do is convert your event files to 16-bit monaural WAVE format and >use Cornell's "Raven Lite 1.0" application. It is free, and can display >spectrograms in color or black-and-white. See: > > _http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html_ >(http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html) > Ok, so that begs the question, how do we convert an event to a 16 bit wave file? Actually, this is a question that has more implications, as some gentleman actually took USGS data and did convert it to a wave file, then sped it up and is using it as an art exhibit. See: http://www.jtbullitt.com/index.html So, if anyone knows how to convert events, or even WinSDR data to a "wave" file, it can be sped up and I think that one day's worth was approximately 4 minutes of sound. Interesting. - Mike __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:48:01 EDT The WAVE format is described at: _http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm_ (http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm) The header data is 44 bytes long, and the remainder of the file consists usually of 16-bit data samples. __________________________ | RIFF WAVE Chunk | | groupID = 'RIFF' | | riffType = 'WAVE' | | __________________ | | | Format Chunk | | | | ckID = 'fmt ' | | | |__________________| | | __________________ | | | Sound Data Chunk | | | | ckID = 'data' | | | |__________________| | |__________________________| The PSN TYPE 4 file format is described at: _http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html_ (http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html) If you know how to program in QuickBasic, Visual Basic, or C the above documents provide enough information for writing an application to convert PSN files to WAVE format. I could easily add this function to my WQFilter.exe utility, but don't presently have the ambition to do so. Sorry about that. Bob ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
  The WAVE format is described=20 at:
 
  http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm
 
The header data is 44 bytes long, and the=20 remainder of the file
consists usually of 16-bit data samples.=20
 __________________________
| RIFF WAVE=20 Chunk          |
|  =20 groupID  =3D 'RIFF'      |
|   ri= ffType=20 =3D 'WAVE'      |
|   =20 __________________    |
|   | Format=20 Chunk     |   |
|   | ckID=20= =3D=20 'fmt '    |   |
|  =20 |__________________|   |
|   =20 __________________    |
|   | Sound Data Chunk=20 |   |
|   | ckID =3D 'data'  =20  |   |
|   |__________________|  =20 |
|__________________________|
 
  The PSN TYPE 4 file format is describ= ed=20 at:
 
  http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html
 
  If you know how to program in QuickBa= sic,=20 Visual Basic, or C the above documents provide enough information for writin= g an=20 application to convert PSN files to WAVE format.  I could easily add th= is=20 function to my WQFilter.exe utility, but don't presently have the ambition t= o do=20 so. Sorry about that.
 
Bob



See what's free at AOL.com.
Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display From: "Michael Kimzey" mckimzey@........... Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:26:58 -0400 >The WAVE format is described at: > > _http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm_ >(http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm) > >The header data is 44 bytes long, and the remainder of the file >consists usually of 16-bit data samples. >__________________________ >| RIFF WAVE Chunk | >| groupID = 'RIFF' | >| riffType = 'WAVE' | >| __________________ | >| | Format Chunk | | >| | ckID = 'fmt ' | | >| |__________________| | >| __________________ | >| | Sound Data Chunk | | >| | ckID = 'data' | | >| |__________________| | >|__________________________| > > The PSN TYPE 4 file format is described at: > > _http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html_ >(http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html) > How about the format for a WinSDR data file (ie. seisdata.180) Is that documented anywhere as I think that it is different from the event file format. Just wondering. - Mike __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 07/09/2007 00:00:06 From: "Randy" rpratt@............. Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:15:53 -0500 Hi, A couple of years ago one of the PSN members offered a program called 'RECENT' that created filtered displays and helicorder type output in HTML format. A side function was to create a sound file from the event with control of playback rate. It worked quite well. I don't know if it is available somewhere but if not I think I could find a copy somewhere in my files. The program operates in a batch mode and is quite easy to use. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 02:01 Subject: Digest from 07/09/2007 00:00:06 > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display > From: "Michael Kimzey" > Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:23:35 -0400 > > > >The Cornell Lab of Ornithology offers a free program for displaying > >waterfall spectrograms of WAVE format sound files, which although intended > >primarily > >for the study of bird songs, would be useful for earthquakes as well. All > >you > >have to do is convert your event files to 16-bit monaural WAVE format and > >use Cornell's "Raven Lite 1.0" application. It is free, and can display > >spectrograms in color or black-and-white. See: > > > > _http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html_ > >(http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html) > > > > Ok, so that begs the question, how do we convert an event to a 16 bit wave > file? Actually, this is a question that has more implications, as some > gentleman actually took USGS data and did convert it to a wave file, then > sped it up and is using it as an art exhibit. See: > http://www.jtbullitt.com/index.html > So, if anyone knows how to convert events, or even WinSDR data to a "wave" > file, it can be sped up and I think that one day's worth was approximately 4 > minutes of sound. > Interesting. > > - Mike > > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 2 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display > From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... > Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:48:01 EDT > > > -------------------------------1184035681 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > The WAVE format is described at: > > _http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm_ > (http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm) > > The header data is 44 bytes long, and the remainder of the file > consists usually of 16-bit data samples. > __________________________ > | RIFF WAVE Chunk | > | groupID = 'RIFF' | > | riffType = 'WAVE' | > | __________________ | > | | Format Chunk | | > | | ckID = 'fmt ' | | > | |__________________| | > | __________________ | > | | Sound Data Chunk | | > | | ckID = 'data' | | > | |__________________| | > |__________________________| > > The PSN TYPE 4 file format is described at: > > _http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html_ > (http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html) > > If you know how to program in QuickBasic, Visual Basic, or C the above > documents provide enough information for writing an application to convert PSN > files to WAVE format. I could easily add this function to my WQFilter.exe > utility, but don't presently have the ambition to do so. Sorry about that. > > Bob > > > > ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > > -------------------------------1184035681 > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > > Arial"=20 > bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7> e_document=20 > face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2> >
  The WAVE format is described=20 > at:
>
 
>
  href=3D"http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm"> face=3D"Courier New">http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm IV> >
 
>
The header data is 44 bytes long, and the=20 > remainder of the file
consists usually of 16-bit data samples.=20 >
 __________________________
| RIFF WAVE=20 > Chunk          |
|  =20 > groupID  =3D 'RIFF'      |
|   ri= > ffType=20 > =3D 'WAVE'      |
|   =20 > __________________    |
|   | Format=20 > Chunk     |   |
|   | ckID=20= > =3D=20 > 'fmt '    |   |
|  =20 > |__________________|   |
|   =20 > __________________    |
|   | Sound Data Chunk=20 > |   |
|   | ckID =3D 'data'  =20 >  |   |
|   |__________________|  =20 > |
|__________________________|
>
 
>
  The PSN TYPE 4 file format is describ= > ed=20 > at:
>
 
>
  href=3D"http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html"> face=3D"Courier New">http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html IV> >
 
>
  If you know how to program in QuickBa= > sic,=20 > Visual Basic, or C the above documents provide enough information for writin= > g an=20 > application to convert PSN files to WAVE format.  I could easily add th= > is=20 > function to my WQFilter.exe utility, but don't presently have the ambition t= > o do=20 > so. Sorry about that.
>
 
>
Bob



T style=3D"color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;">
ARGIN-TOP: 10px">See what's free at LAOF00020000000503" href=3D"http://www.aol.com?ncid=3DAOLAOF00020000000503"=20= > target=3D"_blank">AOL.com.
> > -------------------------------1184035681-- > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 07/09/2007 00:00:06 From: Larry Conklin lconklin@............ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:34:44 -0400 I still have a copy of that program, and use it daily to generate 24 hr. helicorder plots from my data files. It is a very nice program written, I believe, by Arie Verveer (sp?). If it can't be found elsewhere, I would be happy to send a copy to anyone who is interested. Larry Conklin Liverpool, NY lconklin@............ Randy wrote: > Hi, > > A couple of years ago one of the PSN members offered a program called > 'RECENT' that created filtered displays and helicorder type output in HTML > format. A side function was to create a sound file from the event with > control of playback rate. It worked quite well. I don't know if it is > available somewhere but if not I think I could find a copy somewhere in my > files. The program operates in a batch mode and is quite easy to use. > > Randy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 02:01 > Subject: Digest from 07/09/2007 00:00:06 > > >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 1 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display >> From: "Michael Kimzey" >> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 08:23:35 -0400 >> >> >>> The Cornell Lab of Ornithology offers a free program for displaying >>> waterfall spectrograms of WAVE format sound files, which although > intended >>> primarily >>> for the study of bird songs, would be useful for earthquakes as well. > All >>> you >>> have to do is convert your event files to 16-bit monaural WAVE format > and >>> use Cornell's "Raven Lite 1.0" application. It is free, and can display >>> spectrograms in color or black-and-white. See: >>> >>> _http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html_ >>> (http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html) >>> >> Ok, so that begs the question, how do we convert an event to a 16 bit wave >> file? Actually, this is a question that has more implications, as some >> gentleman actually took USGS data and did convert it to a wave file, then >> sped it up and is using it as an art exhibit. See: >> http://www.jtbullitt.com/index.html >> So, if anyone knows how to convert events, or even WinSDR data to a "wave" >> file, it can be sped up and I think that one day's worth was approximately > 4 >> minutes of sound. >> Interesting. >> >> - Mike >> >> >> >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 2 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display >> From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... >> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:48:01 EDT >> >> >> -------------------------------1184035681 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> The WAVE format is described at: >> >> _http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm_ >> (http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm) >> >> The header data is 44 bytes long, and the remainder of the file >> consists usually of 16-bit data samples. >> __________________________ >> | RIFF WAVE Chunk | >> | groupID = 'RIFF' | >> | riffType = 'WAVE' | >> | __________________ | >> | | Format Chunk | | >> | | ckID = 'fmt ' | | >> | |__________________| | >> | __________________ | >> | | Sound Data Chunk | | >> | | ckID = 'data' | | >> | |__________________| | >> |__________________________| >> >> The PSN TYPE 4 file format is described at: >> >> _http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html_ >> (http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html) >> >> If you know how to program in QuickBasic, Visual Basic, or C the above >> documents provide enough information for writing an application to > convert PSN >> files to WAVE format. I could easily add this function to my > WQFilter.exe >> utility, but don't presently have the ambition to do so. Sorry about > that. >> Bob >> >> >> >> ************************************** See what's free at > http://www.aol.com. >> -------------------------------1184035681 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> >> >> >> FONT-FAMILY:=20= >> Arial"=20 >> bottomMargin=3D7 leftMargin=3D7 topMargin=3D7 rightMargin=3D7> id=3Drol= >> e_document=20 >> face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size=3D2> >>
  The WAVE format is described=20 >> at:
>>
 
>>
  > href=3D"http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm">> face=3D"Courier > New">http://www.borg.com/~jglatt/tech/wave.htm> IV> >>
 
>>
The header data is 44 bytes long, and > the=20 >> remainder of the file
consists usually of 16-bit data samples.=20 >>
 __________________________
| RIFF WAVE=20 >> Chunk          > |
|  =20 >> groupID  =3D 'RIFF'      |
|   > ri= >> ffType=20 >> =3D 'WAVE'      |
|   =20 >> __________________    |
|   | Format=20 >> Chunk     |   |
|   > | ckID=20= >> =3D=20 >> 'fmt '    |   |
|  =20 >> |__________________|   |
|   =20 >> __________________    |
|   | Sound Data > Chunk=20 >> |   |
|   | ckID =3D 'data'  =20 >>  |   |
|   |__________________|  =20 >> |
|__________________________|
>>
 
>>
  The PSN TYPE 4 file format is > describ= >> ed=20 >> at:
>>
 
>>
  > href=3D"http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html">> face=3D"Courier > New">http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html> IV> >>
 
>>
  If you know how to program in > QuickBa= >> sic,=20 >> Visual Basic, or C the above documents provide enough information for > writin= >> g an=20 >> application to convert PSN files to WAVE format.  I could easily add > th= >> is=20 >> function to my WQFilter.exe utility, but don't presently have the ambition > t= >> o do=20 >> so. Sorry about that.
>>
 
>>
New">Bob



> T style=3D"color: black; font: normal 10pt ARIAL, SAN-SERIF;">
style=3D"M= >> ARGIN-TOP: 10px">See what's free at title=3D"http://www.aol.com?ncid=3DAO= >> LAOF00020000000503" > href=3D"http://www.aol.com?ncid=3DAOLAOF00020000000503"=20= >> target=3D"_blank">AOL.com.
>> >> -------------------------------1184035681-- >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RECENT From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:59:56 +0000 Hello, I also use it everyday and have a copy if it is needed. It was written by Arie Verveer. Who I am am pretty sure is still on the list. Angel Tuesday, July 10, 2007, 5:34:44 PM, you wrote: > I still have a copy of that program, and use it daily to generate 24 hr. > helicorder plots from my data files. It is a very nice program > written, I believe, by C (sp?). If it can't be found > elsewhere, I would be happy to send a copy to anyone who is interested. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall display From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:09:29 +0000 Hello Larry, Swarm does realtime spectrogrmas of log of frequency and log of power displays of seismic signals. You could go directly to from winsdr to earthworm to a waveserver and from the wave server to Swarm. I know what I just said is cryptic but if you need more detail I would be glad to get it to you. I can send you a screen shot of what the display looks like if you want. Angel \ Sunday, July 8, 2007, 7:56:30 PM, you wrote: > A couple of years ago I experimented with adding a real-time FFT > waterfall display to my home brew data logging and display program. I > got the waterfall working just fine but there is something wrong with > the FFT calculation that I never got around to debugging. The current > discussion may motivate me to take another look at it. If I manage to > get something working, it wouldn't be much additional effort to adapt > the code into an independent program that would take PSN files as a data > source. > Larry Conklin > Liverpool, NY > lconklin@............ > __________________________________________________________ > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall display From: Larry Conklin lconklin@............ Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:49:44 -0400 Hi Angel, Thanks for the info. My original intention was to add a real time FFT waterfall display to my home brew data logging program. I thought it would be interesting to watch the spectrum of an incoming event in addition to the time domain signal. I'm not as interested in an after the fact, "postmortem" display. I used some public domain C code for the FFT that wasn't very well documented. I'm getting some sort of data in the waterfall, but it clearly ain't right. Got side tracked and didn't get back to it. Somebody posted a link to a site that evidently has source code for the FFT and much better documentation. When I get the time I'll take a look at it and perhaps replace what I had with something a little better written. Larry Angel wrote: > Hello Larry, > > Swarm does realtime spectrogrmas of log of frequency and log of power > displays of seismic signals. > > You could go directly to from winsdr to earthworm to a waveserver and > from the wave server to Swarm. I know what I just said is cryptic but > if you need more detail I would be glad to get it to you. I can send > you a screen shot of what the display looks like if you want. > > Angel > \ > Sunday, July 8, 2007, 7:56:30 PM, you wrote: > >> A couple of years ago I experimented with adding a real-time FFT >> waterfall display to my home brew data logging and display program. I >> got the waterfall working just fine but there is something wrong with >> the FFT calculation that I never got around to debugging. The current >> discussion may motivate me to take another look at it. If I manage to >> get something working, it wouldn't be much additional effort to adapt >> the code into an independent program that would take PSN files as a data >> source. > >> Larry Conklin >> Liverpool, NY >> lconklin@............ >> __________________________________________________________ > >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:34:12 +0000 Hello Larry, What I mentioned would be in realtime, will a little itty bitty delay. but is is a mess to set up. Angel Tuesday, July 10, 2007, 9:49:44 PM, you wrote: > Hi Angel, > Thanks for the info. My original intention was to add a real time FFT > waterfall display to my home brew data logging program. I thought it > would be interesting to watch the spectrum of an incoming event in > addition to the time domain signal. I'm not as interested in an after > the fact, "postmortem" display. > I used some public domain C code for the FFT that wasn't very well > documented. I'm getting some sort of data in the waterfall, but it > clearly ain't right. Got side tracked and didn't get back to it. > Somebody posted a link to a site that evidently has source code for the > FFT and much better documentation. When I get the time I'll take a look > at it and perhaps replace what I had with something a little better written. > Larry > Angel wrote: >> Hello Larry, >> >> Swarm does realtime spectrogrmas of log of frequency and log of power >> displays of seismic signals. >> >> You could go directly to from winsdr to earthworm to a waveserver and >> from the wave server to Swarm. I know what I just said is cryptic but >> if you need more detail I would be glad to get it to you. I can send >> you a screen shot of what the display looks like if you want. >> >> Angel >> \ >> Sunday, July 8, 2007, 7:56:30 PM, you wrote: >> >>> A couple of years ago I experimented with adding a real-time FFT >>> waterfall display to my home brew data logging and display program. I >>> got the waterfall working just fine but there is something wrong with >>> the FFT calculation that I never got around to debugging. The current >>> discussion may motivate me to take another look at it. If I manage to >>> get something working, it wouldn't be much additional effort to adapt >>> the code into an independent program that would take PSN files as a data >>> source. >> >>> Larry Conklin >>> Liverpool, NY >>> lconklin@............ >>> __________________________________________________________ >> >>> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >>> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >>> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> >> > __________________________________________________________ > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display - Record file format From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 20:50:12 -0700 Hi Everyone, Michael Kimzey wrote: > How about the format for a WinSDR data file (ie. seisdata.180) Is that > documented anywhere as I think that it is different from the event file > format. Just wondering. I have some 'C' code that documents the format of WinSDR's daily record files. The file can be downloaded from here http://www.seismicnet.com/software/recordfile.zip. The PSN event file format is documented here http://www.seismicnet.com/psnformat4.html Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: Digest from 07/09/2007 00:00:06 From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:50:43 +0000 Hello Randy, Come else just asked for it so I just placed it here for anyone to download and use. It took me a bit to find the manuals and some email from Arie. As you can see the files have dates from 2002. If you have any problems drop me a line. I placed it at www.volcanbaru.com/OSOP/Recent/Recent.zip Regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall display From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:34:56 -0500 Got a copy of the Recent program, but when I tired to load it, the exe program gives error message "No AutoFFT.ini file found". I guess I have to read the documentation? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:54:29 +0000 Hello Thomas, I hope the subject line has nothing to do with the subject of this message. I think I inlcuded an ini file in the zip I posted. angel Wednesday, July 11, 2007, 8:34:56 PM, you wrote: > Got a copy of the Recent program, but when I tired to load it, the exe > program gives error message "No AutoFFT.ini file found". I guess I have to > read the documentation? > __________________________________________________________ > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Digest from 07/09/2007 00:00:06 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 04:22:39 +0000 Hi all Is there a program that allows me to create a list of the earthquakes I record, by week or monthly status. I want to put up a list of the earthquakes that my systems record. But it is impossible to do it by hand, since I often record more then 30 earthquakes pr week. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:20:48 -0700 The power needed for a raltime FFT display of any value just does not exist for a typical home computer. You would need a special card like these high speed video cards. I have seen the machines that do real time fft and back in the 1970s they were like 1000X faster than your home computer and would do 500 points and be only a few milli seconds behind real time. You most probably will have to stick with after the fact processing. those old machines were special purpose and would have circuits built specifically to work on each chosen freq. So if you wanted 500 points there would be 500 seperate circuits for each chosen freq. I suspect SETI is using the public to do what those old expensive machines used to do. Maybe if you got a CRAY supercomputer you might do real time ( HA! ) crunching. Since we all live normally about 0.1 seconds behind realtime anyway we all live in the past. We never can see reality in real time. Regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:38:46 -0700 It Is My Sincere Belief that you will not be able to get anywhere near realtime with a home PC simply because too many complicated iterations must be made for many discrete points. You will have to settle with after the fact processing. I have tried a FFT program myself using my own data on a 3GHz machine and it takes 11 seconds to process 29 minutes of data each line of spectrum being seperated by 4.5 seconds in time. Each line pass representing 56.2 seconds of time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Conklin" To: "PSN List" Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 12:56 Subject: FFT Waterfall display >A couple of years ago I experimented with adding a real-time FFT > waterfall display to my home brew data logging and display program. I > got the waterfall working just fine but there is something wrong with > the FFT calculation that I never got around to debugging. The current > discussion may motivate me to take another look at it. If I manage to > get something working, it wouldn't be much additional effort to adapt > the code into an independent program that would take PSN files as a data > source. > > Larry Conklin > Liverpool, NY > lconklin@............ > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:42:48 -0700 I convert my data to 8 bit mono wav files and speed them up to about 300X so my 30 minute files will last only 6 seconds or so but you can hear very clearly the differences between man made sounds and EQs. You simply have to understand the headers to program the conversion. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Kimzey" To: Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 05:23 Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display > >>The Cornell Lab of Ornithology offers a free program for displaying >>waterfall spectrograms of WAVE format sound files, which although intended >>primarily >>for the study of bird songs, would be useful for earthquakes as well. All >>you >>have to do is convert your event files to 16-bit monaural WAVE format and >>use Cornell's "Raven Lite 1.0" application. It is free, and can display >>spectrograms in color or black-and-white. See: >> >> _http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html_ >>(http://www.birds.cornell.edu/brp/raven/Raven.html) >> > > Ok, so that begs the question, how do we convert an event to a 16 bit wave > file? Actually, this is a question that has more implications, as some > gentleman actually took USGS data and did convert it to a wave file, then > sped it up and is using it as an art exhibit. See: > http://www.jtbullitt.com/index.html > So, if anyone knows how to convert events, or even WinSDR data to a "wave" > file, it can be sped up and I think that one day's worth was approximately 4 > minutes of sound. > Interesting. > > - Mike > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:53:53 -0700 Thanks for the Info. I searched and searched and found only one PDF file that explained things in ways I could somewhat understand. It seems the data fed into an fft routine needs to be symmetrical +/- between one and zero in magnitude as samples voltages or whatever and the results is given as a series of freq points that are the original sample points / two. You start out with 1024 samples and end up with 512 freq points that are in two arrays of Sin and Cosin data. to get the final results you need to use the pythagoras formula to combine the two a = sqr(r^2 + I^2) maybe x 0.7071 to get the RMS value. The data can be any sample rate and the results will be interpreted according to the sample rate of the original data. The freq spread will be sample rate divided by two. DC to that freq. It will be a slow process to calculate a decent length of time. But it will let you look at the overall response of your system especially when you record storm noise of a passing storm which is like infrared noise. The noise will show the passband of your SP system. regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Price" To: Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 11:39 Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display > Geoff, > The FFT algorithm is well documented and implementations abound. The FFT > is widely used by anyone interested in exploring data in the frequency > domain and it would be hard to find an algorithm better explained or > more readily available. A Google search for "fft source code" generates > 1.3M hits; indeed, the first one is www.fftw.org which has downloadable > C source and links to many other sites containing source in several > languages. You can find a basic implementation at: > http://logosfoundation.org/fft/fft.html for example. > > The notion that access to FFT code is somehow restricted is misguided. > > Mike > > > Geoffrey wrote: >> This program seems to not use data files >> but wants you to build a custom A/D that >> will be read by the program itself. >> Not sure a sound card will take sample rates >> as low as 20Hz because most sound hardware >> has a capacitor input that rejects DC or freqs >> below the sense of hearing. >> >> It would be so nice to have this feature in Winquake to >> do an Analysis of file data in TXT/8/12/16/24 bit form >> or text form all you have to do is limit the frq >> between Dc and 5 Hz or so and make atleast >> 1024 samples per spectrum line. >> >> I have seen the routine in the library at ASU >> to FFT and there seems to be several ways. >> The best i like seems to result in the final >> results with the number of samples to be worked >> setting the resolution over the band. >> >> These people who write these books on FFT are oriented >> only to their own kind so if you do not know calculus or higher >> transforming their ideas into a computer program is very difficult. >> >> But I have in the past done this successfully myself. >> On a very small scale with a VIC20 machine running 10MHz. >> >> You need to take the first 1024 samples then make an imaginary >> set from the same ones then do a butterfly operation >> (some kind of fancy math) that results in a backward >> spectrum with each sample now representing a frequency band. >> >> Then you straighten out the results to get the low freq at the low >> sample number position. >> >> The final results is the freq range represented within the sample set >> chosen >> and that would be line one. >> >> Then you advance one sample in the data and do the same for the >> next contiguous 1024 samples. >> >> This is repeated until you have built a picture of your entire data file. >> >> The sample rate determins the freq limits I think. >> >> Why do not more people take an interest >> in the math and programming and hardware >> because seismology is just a fine specialty >> and I think more serious PROs should take an >> interest in fostering human interests in all lines of Science. >> >> You got to be an MD or equiv before you can >> get into forensic medicine ot Toxicology but this >> Seismology stuff is non license stuff and great way to >> learn many facets of science. >> >> Please someone with Math background make us a >> Basic Program like QBASIC or POWERBASIC >> to do one line of FFT and I will take it from there >> to make the whole program. >> >> I did this once myself but did not record the final >> program and would have to learn everything all over >> again to do this program again. >> A Burgler stole the VIC20 laptop with all my programs >> several years ago so those programs are lost. >> >> There is more to amateur stuff then just watching the waves >> and building things with your hands. It is a great chance >> to play general science and bring most everything together >> to see how it works with NO MYSTRIES. >> >> There seems to be effort to compartmentize information >> in the USA because of its capitalistic nature forcing one >> to become a college goon before you are able to >> do anything academic. The truth of the matter >> is to get a formal degree the system studies you as much >> as you study your subject so there is no real privacy >> or artisic freedom for the adventerous academic without >> government awareness. The Counter Intelligence peoples >> do not want Academic Freedom in the USA. >> Even tho we are playing with this harmless passive seismology stuff. >> >> I have come to realize that in some European Countries >> they have laws amounting to NEPLEONIC LAW which basically >> says everything is illegal except that which is specified by government. >> >> These kinds of forces are what we up against even in this >> relatively harmless area of seismology. >> >> If there is no common place to get knowledge we must make it ourselves >> even if it angers the powers that be. >> >> It is no accident we can not find a simple BASIC FFT source code >> with logic trees etc in laymen terms for our interest area. >> Everyone is trying to keep secrets or make money. >> >> For the sake of the evolution of science lets >> please gather together a collection of utility programs >> free for universal use in this PSN group. >> >> I am assuming PSN means Public like WORLD PUBLIC and not just >> California Public. >> >> One LAST thing for NOW. >> Black and White and shades of gray is by far the best for resolution >> and universal readability. >> If a person is lucky to get a totally black and white monitor or green >> you will see no sharper images than with such an analog electrostatic >> scanning device. >> The military used to preferr these over color since it used to be all >> male >> (for warships) >> and males have the highest incident of color blindness. >> >> Regards; >> geoff >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:57:52 -0700 Hey thats far out. If only i knew how to program such stuff myself using PowerBasic. It takes me now 11 seconds to look at only 384 lines of data covering about 30 minutes of time. If I could somehow speed that up I would sure like to know how. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Price" To: Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 16:06 Subject: Re: Most Recent Discover Magazine pp66-67 WaterFall Display > Geoff, > A 3.2 GHz Pentium 4 with a vectorized FFT implementation using SSE2 > (special extended 128-bit MMX instruction set of the Pentium) can > execute a 1024 point FFT in well under 1mS. A 4096 FFT can be executed > in under 6mS. This would blow the doors off any ca. 1972 implementation > even if done entirely in HW. > > The number of points needed in an FFT is driven by the desired frequency > resolution (bin width = sample_frequency / number_of_points). You may be > able to get away with fewer number of points if you don't need fine > frequency resolution. > > The FFT produces a complex number: a + bi. Think of it as a vector. You > get magnitude and phase as follows: > mag = sqrt( a^2 + b^2 ) > phase = atan ( b / a ) > > Mike Price > > > Geoffrey wrote: >> Wonderful and thanks; >> It has been a few years since I looked >> and I never found anything like that. >> >> It (FFT) was classified Secret in the US Navy in the 1970s >> but after I saw my "secret" machine sold to foreign >> countries in a commissiond officers magazine >> (My dad was a retired officer) I no longer accepted the navys >> classification. >> for that machine. >> I now realize they want to keep it a secret >> only till they market the machine wherever. >> The secrecy is more for economic (manufacturing) >> than military reasons. We were probably only >> testing the device for Diagnostic Retreival Company. >> >> A general purpose computer like mine that works in a serial fashion >> can not match the speed of that parallel computing machine. >> > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display From: "Michael Kimzey" mckimzey@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:09:29 -0400 Hi all. >The power needed for a realtime FFT display >of any value just does not exist for a typical >home computer. You would need a special >card like these high speed video cards. > >I have seen the machines that do real time fft >and back in the 1970s they were like 1000X faster >than your home computer and would do 500 points >and be only a few milli seconds behind real time. > I'm don't completely understand all this FFT stuff, but a search of google revealed that you can get several programs for FFT and waterfall display. Spectrogram 5.1 http://www.relisoft.com/science/Physics/fft.html <- provides a discussion of FFT and source code. Digipan - this is a amature radio program for communicating digitally using audio output from your sound card and has a very nice waterfall display. Spectran 2.0 Maybe these are not doing something "FFT-wise", but Spectrograph and Spectran both allow you to set the FFT size and both have the moving graphical display...and are working on signals with sample rates of 44,000 per second. I think that any seismological waterfall display would move -very- slowly...my samples-per-second are only 10 and should be able to perform some type of FFT. Even Win-Quake does FFT. Maybe I'm missing something... - Mike __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:48:18 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/14, gmvoeth@........... writes: > The power needed for a real-time FFT display of any value just does not > exist for a typical home computer. You would need a special card like these high > speed video cards. > > I have seen the machines that do real time fft and back in the 1970s they > were like 1000X faster than your home computer and would do 500 points and be > only a few milli seconds behind real time. You most probably will have to > stick with after the fact processing. Hi Geoff, There have been several developments in FFTs since the 1970s!! The amount of maths required to produce a FFT has been drastically reduced by new algorithms. The processors are now thousands of times faster, several may be included on one chip and they can use vectored instructions. It is largely a question of what you are calling 'real time'. If you use a multitasking processor, the interrupts are maybe 20 to a few milliseconds or less. Such time delays are not usually important in amateur seismology. The most likely delay is the relatively slow rate of seismic sampling. By opting for a 10 Hz low pass filter, you are accepting a 50 milli second delay minimum. I would not expect there to be a problem in providing a FFT display to update at this rate. I note quoted times of less than 1 milli second to complete a FFT sample. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/14, gmvoeth@........... writes:

The power needed for a real-tim= e FFT display of any value just does not exist for a typical home computer.=20= You would need a special card like these high speed video cards.

I have seen the machines that do real time fft and back in the 1970s they we= re like 1000X faster than your home computer and would do 500 points and be=20= only a few milli seconds behind real time. You most probably will have to st= ick with after the fact processing.


Hi Geoff,

       There have been several developments in= FFTs since the 1970s!!

       The amount of maths required to produce= a FFT has been drastically reduced by new algorithms.
       The processors are now thousands of tim= es faster, several may be included on one chip and they can use vectored ins= tructions.

       It is largely a question of what you ar= e calling 'real time'.
       If you use a multitasking processor, th= e interrupts are maybe 20 to a few milliseconds or less. Such time delays ar= e not usually important in amateur seismology. The most likely delay is the=20= relatively slow rate of seismic sampling. By opting for a 10 Hz low pass fil= ter, you are accepting a 50 milli second delay minimum.

       I would not expect there to be a proble= m in providing a FFT display to update at this rate. I note quoted times of=20= less than 1 milli second to complete a FFT sample.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall display From: Larry Conklin lconklin@............ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:28:46 -0400 OooooH Kay... Now I'm beginning to get motivated. I've already got something running real time, just have to debug the thing to make the FFT algorithm run correctly. Nothing like a declaration of impossibility to get the old juices flowing again. Larry Geoffrey wrote: > It Is My Sincere Belief that you will > not be able to get anywhere near > realtime with a home PC simply because > too many complicated iterations must > be made for many discrete points. > > You will have to settle with after the fact > processing. > > I have tried a FFT program myself using > my own data on a 3GHz machine and it takes > 11 seconds to process 29 minutes of data > each line of spectrum being seperated by > 4.5 seconds in time. > Each line pass representing 56.2 seconds of time. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Conklin" > To: "PSN List" > Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 12:56 > Subject: FFT Waterfall display > > >> A couple of years ago I experimented with adding a real-time FFT >> waterfall display to my home brew data logging and display program. I >> got the waterfall working just fine but there is something wrong with >> the FFT calculation that I never got around to debugging. The current >> discussion may motivate me to take another look at it. If I manage to >> get something working, it wouldn't be much additional effort to adapt >> the code into an independent program that would take PSN files as a >> data source. >> >> Larry Conklin >> Liverpool, NY >> lconklin@............ >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 15:55:09 -0700 Hello Chris and PSN; I believe everything you are telling me. BUT, Real time is not really real time. The speed can be tremendous and possibly a sample rate of a megaherts and special whatever will produce a spectrum line in record time. BUT as a human looking at things you will not see reality in your brain until you can perceive it and that takes time. What we call real time is possibly 100ms behind real time. To see real time you must see into the future ahead of where you really are and since I do not believe in time travel in the sci-fi sense We as human beings are prisoners of only the present minus the time it takes our souls to realize it. I myself do not need , Real Time, because I am not looking for enemies like the military always does. I only need to be able to analyze the data I produce to understand a bit better about the reality that surrounds me. I can now see partly with this new FFT thing I have put together with help from wherever that I seem to understand my hardware somewhat but most probably never completely. I am searching for free knowledge to help me use the current tools at my disposal to understand better this seismic hobby and its related sciences. I have no capitalistic intertests. I am sick from fighting humanity. The USA calls me mentally ill but I happen to believe the sickness is really theirs. Thanks for your response. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 06:48 Subject: Re: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display > In a message dated 2007/07/14, gmvoeth@........... writes: > >> The power needed for a real-time FFT display of any value just does not >> exist for a typical home computer. You would need a special card like these high >> speed video cards. >> >> I have seen the machines that do real time fft and back in the 1970s they >> were like 1000X faster than your home computer and would do 500 points and be >> only a few milli seconds behind real time. You most probably will have to >> stick with after the fact processing. > > Hi Geoff, > > There have been several developments in FFTs since the 1970s!! > > The amount of maths required to produce a FFT has been drastically > reduced by new algorithms. > The processors are now thousands of times faster, several may be > included on one chip and they can use vectored instructions. > > It is largely a question of what you are calling 'real time'. > If you use a multitasking processor, the interrupts are maybe 20 to a > few milliseconds or less. Such time delays are not usually important in > amateur seismology. The most likely delay is the relatively slow rate of seismic > sampling. By opting for a 10 Hz low pass filter, you are accepting a 50 milli > second delay minimum. > > I would not expect there to be a problem in providing a FFT display to > update at this rate. I note quoted times of less than 1 milli second to > complete a FFT sample. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:08:25 -0700 Hello Larry and PSN; LOL, I will never believe real time unless you can see the future. My wishes are with you but I fear that what you produce will not be affordable for ME to possess. What is most important to me is to VISUALIZE that which the designs tell me about my circuitry. If I am supposed to see a certain bandwidth I would like to see the data that proves my equipment is functioning properly. A waterfall of a passing storm might reveal the true bandwidth of my circuitry because it is rich in low freq. noise. This does not need to be Real Time so to speak. The FFT does not need to be real time for me to see where all the signals are falling. If you are looking for something going on like TORNADOES or Tunnel Diggers then you need something that is very very fast and almost real time. But Earthquakes have already happened and everything relating to them are simply After-The-Fact. I am still interested in knowing more about everything science\math related. Law Enforcement or Military could probably use real time stuff. But for me it would only be an expensive luxury. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Conklin" To: Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 07:28 Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall display > OooooH Kay... Now I'm beginning to get motivated. I've already got > something running real time, just have to debug the thing to make the > FFT algorithm run correctly. Nothing like a declaration of > impossibility to get the old juices flowing again. > > Larry > > Geoffrey wrote: >> It Is My Sincere Belief that you will >> not be able to get anywhere near >> realtime with a home PC simply because >> too many complicated iterations must >> be made for many discrete points. >> >> You will have to settle with after the fact >> processing. >> >> I have tried a FFT program myself using >> my own data on a 3GHz machine and it takes >> 11 seconds to process 29 minutes of data >> each line of spectrum being seperated by >> 4.5 seconds in time. >> Each line pass representing 56.2 seconds of time. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Conklin" >> To: "PSN List" >> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 12:56 >> Subject: FFT Waterfall display >> >> >>> A couple of years ago I experimented with adding a real-time FFT >>> waterfall display to my home brew data logging and display program. I >>> got the waterfall working just fine but there is something wrong with >>> the FFT calculation that I never got around to debugging. The current >>> discussion may motivate me to take another look at it. If I manage to >>> get something working, it wouldn't be much additional effort to adapt >>> the code into an independent program that would take PSN files as a >>> data source. >>> >>> Larry Conklin >>> Liverpool, NY >>> lconklin@............ >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >>> >>> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >>> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >>> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 16:15:50 -0700 Hello Michael and PSN; LOL, do you really understand all that MATH gobblygoop. I am not a Mathmatician and not even pretend to be a programmer or Engineer. I need the exact PowerBasic\Dos Source code to compile a program useful with raw binary data. Everyone seems to avoid BASIC and want to use C because thats what they teach at the University. C is like a foreign language to me and if it is not BASIC or Assembly I can not understand it. Point me to a FREE FFT Basic Source Code that does a complete conversion and my ears will perk up. The USN has spoiled me by being able to talk to laymen. Cheers :-) geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Kimzey" To: Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 05:09 Subject: Re: Re[2]: FFT Waterfall display > Hi all. > >>The power needed for a realtime FFT display >>of any value just does not exist for a typical >>home computer. You would need a special >>card like these high speed video cards. >> >>I have seen the machines that do real time fft >>and back in the 1970s they were like 1000X faster >>than your home computer and would do 500 points >>and be only a few milli seconds behind real time. >> > I'm don't completely understand all this FFT stuff, but a search of google > revealed that you can get several programs for FFT and waterfall display. > Spectrogram 5.1 > http://www.relisoft.com/science/Physics/fft.html <- provides a discussion > of FFT and source code. > Digipan - this is a amature radio program for communicating digitally using > audio output from your sound card and has a very nice waterfall display. > Spectran 2.0 > > Maybe these are not doing something "FFT-wise", but Spectrograph and > Spectran both allow you to set the FFT size and both have the moving > graphical display...and are working on signals with sample rates of 44,000 > per second. I think that any seismological waterfall display would move > -very- slowly...my samples-per-second are only 10 and should be able to > perform some type of FFT. Even Win-Quake does FFT. Maybe I'm missing > something... > > - Mike > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: FFT Code From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 21:46:27 EDT Hi Geoff, I write my code in Visual Basic, and also have another FFT routine written in QBasic. The code listing below is what I use in my FFTDemo program, which you can access from _http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html_ (http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html) Cheers, Bob ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Private Sub FFT(Z() As Single) Inv = 0 Call FT(Inv, Npwr, Z()) End Sub Private Sub IFT(Z() As Single) Inv = 1 Call FT(Inv, Npwr, Z()) End Sub Private Sub FT(Inv As Long, Npwr As Long, Z() As Single) Dim PI As Single, Isi As Long, ex As Single Dim I As Long, n As Long, J As Long, m As Long, Mmax As Long Dim Ang As Single, wr As Single, wi As Single, tr As Single Dim ti As Single, istep As Long PI = 4# * Atn(1#) Isi = -1 If Inv > 0 Then Isi = 1 n = 1 For I = 1 To Npwr n = 2 * n Next I J = 0 For I = 0 To n - 2 If I < J Then ex = Z(0, I) Z(0, I) = Z(0, J) Z(0, J) = ex ex = Z(1, I) Z(1, I) = Z(1, J) Z(1, J) = ex End If m = n / 2 While m <= J J = J - m m = m / 2 Wend J = J + m Next I Mmax = 1 While Mmax <> n istep = 2 * Mmax For m = 0 To Mmax - 1 Ang = PI * Isi * m / Mmax wr = Cos(Ang) wi = Sin(Ang) For I = m To n - 1 Step istep J = I + Mmax tr = wr * Z(0, J) - wi * Z(1, J) ti = wi * Z(0, J) + wr * Z(1, J) Z(0, J) = Z(0, I) - tr Z(1, J) = Z(1, I) - ti Z(0, I) = Z(0, I) + tr Z(1, I) = Z(1, I) + ti Next I Next m Mmax = istep Wend If Isi > 0 Then For I = 0 To n - 1 Z(0, I) = (1 / n) * Z(0, I) Z(1, I) = (1 / n) * Z(1, I) Next I End If End Sub ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Hi Geoff,
 
  I write my code in Visual Basic, and also have another FFT routi= ne=20 written in QBasic. The code listing below is what I use in my FFTDemo progra= m,=20 which you can access from http://www.jcl= ahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html=20
 
Cheers,
 
Bob
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Private Sub FFT(Z() As Single)
Inv =3D 0<= BR>Call=20 FT(Inv, Npwr, Z())
End Sub
 

Private Sub IFT(Z() As Single)
Inv=20= =3D=20 1
Call FT(Inv, Npwr, Z())
End Sub
 

Private Sub FT(Inv As Long, Npwr As Long= , Z()=20 As Single)
Dim PI As Single, Isi As Long, ex As Single
Dim I As Long,=20= n As=20 Long, J As Long, m As Long, Mmax As Long
Dim Ang As Single, wr As Single,= wi=20 As Single, tr As Single
Dim ti As Single, istep As Long
 PI =3D 4= # *=20 Atn(1#)
 Isi =3D -1
 If Inv > 0 Then Isi =3D 1
 n= =3D=20 1
 For I =3D 1 To Npwr
  n =3D 2 * n
 Next I
&nbs= p;J =3D=20 0
 For I =3D 0 To n - 2
  If I < J Then
   e= x =3D=20 Z(0, I)
   Z(0, I) =3D Z(0, J)
   Z(0, J) =3D=20 ex
   ex =3D Z(1, I)
   Z(1, I) =3D Z(1,=20 J)
   Z(1, J) =3D ex
  End If
  m =3D n / 2
=  =20 While m <=3D J
   J =3D J - m
   m =3D m / 2 =20 Wend
  J =3D J + m
  Next I
  Mmax =3D 1
 Wh= ile Mmax=20 <> n
   istep =3D 2 * Mmax
   For m =3D 0 To= Mmax -=20 1
    Ang =3D PI * Isi * m / Mmax
    wr= =3D=20 Cos(Ang)
    wi =3D Sin(Ang)
    For I=20= =3D m To=20 n - 1 Step istep
     J =3D I +=20 Mmax
     tr =3D wr * Z(0, J) - wi * Z(1,=20 J)
     ti =3D wi * Z(0, J) + wr * Z(1,=20 J)
     Z(0, J) =3D Z(0, I) -=20 tr
     Z(1, J) =3D Z(1, I) -=20 ti
     Z(0, I) =3D Z(0, I) +=20 tr
     Z(1, I) =3D Z(1, I) + ti
   = ; Next=20 I
   Next m
   Mmax =3D istep
  Wend
If= Isi=20 > 0 Then
   For I =3D 0 To n - 1
    Z(0,=20= I) =3D=20 (1 / n) * Z(0, I)
    Z(1, I) =3D (1 / n) * Z(1,=20 I)
   Next I
  End If
 End Sub
 
 



Get a sneak pe= ak of the all-new AOL.com.
<= /BODY> Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:09:39 EDT All of the discussion about waterfall displays finally moved me to make up WAVE files of my data from the M8.2 Kiril Island event of 01/13/2007. I used Raven to listen to the files and look at the waterfall display. I must say that the sound was a lot more interesting than the waterfall display. In my experience, waterfall displays for seismic events is underwhelming. I am willing to send the WAVE files to anybody that might want them. The data was recorded at 5 samples per second. The WAVE file plays back at 8,000 samples per second, and is about 2 seconds in duration. I am at aol dot com. ---Bob ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
  All of the discussion about waterfall displays finally moved me=20= to=20 make up WAVE files of my data from the M8.2 Kiril Island event of 01/13/2007= .. I=20 used Raven to listen to the files and look at the waterfall display. I must=20= say=20 that the sound was a lot more interesting than the waterfall display. In my=20 experience, waterfall displays for seismic events is underwhelming.
 
  I am willing to send the WAVE files to anybody that might want t= hem.=20 The data was recorded at 5 samples per second. The WAVE file plays back at 8= ,000=20 samples per second, and is about 2 seconds in duration. I am at aol dot=20 com.
 
---Bob



Get a sneak pe= ak of the all-new AOL.com.
<= /BODY> Subject: Re: FFT Waterfall Display From: rbenitez@........ Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:19:47 -0500 (CDT) Hi Bob, Greetings from Guatemala. I would love to have that M8.2 quake WAVE file. Please send it to me. Best regards, Rolando Fraijanes > All of the discussion about waterfall displays finally moved me to make > up > WAVE files of my data from the M8.2 Kiril Island event of 01/13/2007. I > used > Raven to listen to the files and look at the waterfall display. I must say > that the sound was a lot more interesting than the waterfall display. In > my > experience, waterfall displays for seismic events is underwhelming. > > I am willing to send the WAVE files to anybody that might want them. > The > data was recorded at 5 samples per second. The WAVE file plays back at > 8,000 > samples per second, and is about 2 seconds in duration. I am at aol dot > com. > > ---Bob > > > > ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL > at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Large earthquake coming ? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 20:05:29 +0000 Hi all I am execting a large earthquake near Fox Islands. I base that opinion of a sharp rise in mid size earthquake there over the past few hours. I will see what happens. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Sharing images From: John or Jan Lahr JohnJan@........ Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:49:04 -0700 Google allows 1 GB of free storage for images. This is better than E-mail for sharing images, as not everyone has the bandwidth to accept large messages (and they aren't allowed on PSN). Check out: http://picasaweb.google.com/home I think you need to use the free Picasa program to do this. Picasa is quite nice program for keeping track of lots of images, and it's also free. Cheers, John __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Springs again From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:07:36 -0400 Hello Folks, I have been building a vertical sensor for the past few weeks, doing lots of experiments. It seems that the longer the spring, the longer the period... As a rough rule of thumb. I also remember Chris explaining about a "Zero Length" spring. My vertical sensor is the type with a lever arm that is 26" long with a mass at one end. The other end of the lever arm has a pivot point about 2" from the end, and a spring on the end to a base plate. This arrangement certainly not a new idea, is new to me., This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period. By careful adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary the period and the mass needed to achieve balance. 2 questions. 1) What is the relationship between spring position, pivot location, and mass weight. As I would like to try to optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid path to follow. 2) If a rule of thumb....the longer the spring, the greater the period, within the obvious constraints applies. Has or why not has a vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring, mainspring, arrangement been tried. Sort of a torsion spring, but one with many turns and greater length. Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement equates to a longer spring is faulty? Please comment Thank You PauLC W1VLF Station VLF in Connecticut. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Springs again From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:26:18 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/17, Paulc@........ writes: > My vertical sensor is the type with a lever arm that is 26" long with a > mass > at one end. > The other end of the lever arm has a pivot point about 2" from the end, and > a spring on the end to a base plate. Hi Paul, This is a bit difficult to visualise. Can you make a rough drawing using text characters? > This arrangement certainly not a new idea, is new to me., > This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period. > By careful adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary the > period and the mass needed to achieve balance. You can get out to 4 or 5 seconds, but beyond this you need NiSpanC springs to keep the system stable with ambient temperature variations. However, you can extend this period either electronically or using software up to ~x10. See the Roberts circuit for geophones in psn references and on John Lahr's website. It may be easier to make a system for 2.5 seconds and then extend this to 25 seconds. The spring attachment point needs to be maybe 1/2" to 1" above the horizontal arm. > 2 questions. > > 1) What is the relationship between spring position, pivot location, and > mass weight. > As I would like to try to optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid > path to follow. How good is your applied maths? This is a fairly simple triangle of forces problem. You usually start with a coil spring and adjust the arm, mass etc to suit. See the spring calculator at http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html and also http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/vert1/vert2.html Is your seismometer design anything like http://jclahr.com/science/psn/hill/index.html ? I would strongly advise you to use electromagnetic damping as opposed to oil. Have a look at http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm > 2) If a rule of thumb....the longer the spring, the greater the period, > within the obvious constraints applies. > Has or why not has a vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring, > mainspring, arrangement been tried. This is just how long period verticals are designed, but using long triangular shaped leaf springs. Clock type coil springs have too many vibration modes. 'Mouse trap' type torsion coil springs have been used. For a simple spring, the extension E = g x T^2 / (2 x Pi)^2, where T is the period. Thus to get a period of say 10 sec, you need an extension of ~25 metres.... > Sort of a torsion spring, but one with many turns and greater length. > Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement equates to a longer > spring is faulty? No, but this cannot be extended very far, or you start to see the spring vibration modes. You can also make a very good horizontal seismometer using a U tube water manometer. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/17, Paulc@........ writes:

My vertical sensor is the type=20= with a lever arm that is 26" long with a mass
at one end.
The other end of the lever arm has a pivot point about 2" from the end, and<= BR> a spring on the end to a base plate.


Hi Paul,

       This is a bit difficult to visualise. C= an you make a rough drawing using text characters?

This arrangement certainly not=20= a new idea, is new to me.,
This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period.
By careful adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary the=
period and the mass needed to achieve balance.


       You can get out to 4 or 5 seconds, but= beyond this you need NiSpanC springs to keep the system stable with ambient= temperature variations. However, you can extend this period either electron= ically or using software up to ~x10. See the Roberts circuit for geophones i= n psn references and on John Lahr's website. It may be easier to make a syst= em for 2.5 seconds and then extend this to 25 seconds.
       The spring attachment point needs to be= maybe 1/2" to 1" above the horizontal arm.

2 questions.

1) What is the relationship between spring position, pivot location, and
mass weight.
As I would like to try to optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid path to follow.


       How good is your applied maths? This is= a fairly simple triangle of forces problem. You usually start with a coil s= pring and adjust the arm, mass etc to suit.

       See the spring calculator at http://jcl= ahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html and also http://jclahr.com= /science/psn/mcclure/vert1/vert2.html

       Is your seismometer design anything lik= e http://jclahr.com/science/psn/hill/index.html ? I would strongly advise yo= u to use electromagnetic damping as opposed to oil.

       Have a look at http://quake.eas.gatech.= edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm

2) If a rule of thumb....the lo= nger the spring, the greater the period,
within the obvious constraints applies.
Has or why not has a vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring,
mainspring,  arrangement been tried.


       This is just how long period verticals= are designed, but using long triangular shaped leaf springs. Clock type coi= l springs have too many vibration modes. 'Mouse trap' type torsion coil spri= ngs have been used.

        For a simple spring, the extensio= n E =3D g x T^2 / (2 x Pi)^2, where T is the period. Thus to get a period of= say 10 sec, you need an extension of ~25 metres....

Sort of a torsion spring, but o= ne with many turns and greater length.
Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement equates to a longer spring is faulty?


       No, but this cannot be extended very fa= r, or you start to see the spring vibration modes.

       You can also make a very good horizonta= l seismometer using a U tube water manometer.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: FFT Code From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Hi Bob this thread reminds me - I had a Fortran fft program that I picked up years ago. I converted it to Quick Basic with success. I tried to convert it to assembly language to run faster but I had problems with the rounding off of numbers. I wrote a triggering program with the fft routine to do short term /long term averaging with frequency rather than amplitude. You could choose the frequency zones for monitoring (avoiding known noisy frequencies). It also worked well . (written in Quick basic) I wanted the program to be able to learn the difference between a near and teleseismic event but never got there. When the recording of the "fft amplitude/area under the curve" fell below the running long term average the recording of the event stopped. I could look at my computer screen after coming home from work an could instantly see blips on the screen from possible events. I fell in to the easy mode now by recording continuously and then looking on the internet every couple of days for events that I think may have been recorded by my sensors. I am thinking of "blowing the dust off and starting again with the investigation. regards Barry PS back when computers were slow the was a frequency transform called a Walsh transform which used square waves rather than sine waves. It ran quite fast but I guess became useless when processors stepped up.
Hi Bob
this thread reminds me - 
 
I had a Fortran fft program that I picked up years ago. I converted it to Quick Basic with success. I tried to convert it to assembly language to run faster but I had problems with the rounding off of numbers. I wrote a triggering program with the fft routine to do short term /long term averaging with frequency rather than amplitude. You could choose the frequency zones for monitoring (avoiding known noisy frequencies). It also worked well . (written in Quick basic) I wanted the program to be able to learn the difference between a near and teleseismic event but never got there. When the recording of the "fft amplitude/area under the curve" fell below the running long term average the recording of the event stopped. I could look at my computer screen after coming home from work an could instantly see blips on the screen from possible events. I fell in to the easy mode now by recording continuously and then looking on the internet every couple of days for events that I think may have been recorded by my sensors. I am thinking of "blowing the dust off and starting again with the investigation.
regards
Barry
PS  back when computers were slow the was a frequency transform called a Walsh transform which used square waves rather than sine waves. It ran quite fast but I guess became useless when processors stepped up.

Subject: Re: FFT Code From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 01:30:56 -0700 WunderBar; I appreciate this since i am having great difficulty understanding it. It seems simple at first but i quickly get lost in the math and juggling of data. I will be sure to play with these ideas and show you results if they amount to anything. If I can get the conversion it is easy to build a BMP file of the results that can be universally shared. I have not yet been able to get a (self programmed) FFT to really work but have a nice little program called SPECTRA that Nuhertz will not let me have the source code. If I could get their code it would be an easy matter to tack on a recursive feature to build the lines of the display history. regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2007 18:46 Subject: FFT Code > Hi Geoff, > > I write my code in Visual Basic, and also have another FFT routine written > in QBasic. The code listing below is what I use in my FFTDemo program, which > you can access from _http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html_ > (http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html) > > Cheers, > > Bob > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Private Sub FFT(Z() As Single) > Inv = 0 > Call FT(Inv, Npwr, Z()) > End Sub > > > Private Sub IFT(Z() As Single) > Inv = 1 > Call FT(Inv, Npwr, Z()) > End Sub > > > Private Sub FT(Inv As Long, Npwr As Long, Z() As Single) > Dim PI As Single, Isi As Long, ex As Single > Dim I As Long, n As Long, J As Long, m As Long, Mmax As Long > Dim Ang As Single, wr As Single, wi As Single, tr As Single > Dim ti As Single, istep As Long > PI = 4# * Atn(1#) > Isi = -1 > If Inv > 0 Then Isi = 1 > n = 1 > For I = 1 To Npwr > n = 2 * n > Next I > J = 0 > For I = 0 To n - 2 > If I < J Then > ex = Z(0, I) > Z(0, I) = Z(0, J) > Z(0, J) = ex > ex = Z(1, I) > Z(1, I) = Z(1, J) > Z(1, J) = ex > End If > m = n / 2 > While m <= J > J = J - m > m = m / 2 > Wend > J = J + m > Next I > Mmax = 1 > While Mmax <> n > istep = 2 * Mmax > For m = 0 To Mmax - 1 > Ang = PI * Isi * m / Mmax > wr = Cos(Ang) > wi = Sin(Ang) > For I = m To n - 1 Step istep > J = I + Mmax > tr = wr * Z(0, J) - wi * Z(1, J) > ti = wi * Z(0, J) + wr * Z(1, J) > Z(0, J) = Z(0, I) - tr > Z(1, J) = Z(1, I) - ti > Z(0, I) = Z(0, I) + tr > Z(1, I) = Z(1, I) + ti > Next I > Next m > Mmax = istep > Wend > If Isi > 0 Then > For I = 0 To n - 1 > Z(0, I) = (1 / n) * Z(0, I) > Z(1, I) = (1 / n) * Z(1, I) > Next I > End If > End Sub > > > > > > ************************************** Get a sneak peak of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Kiril sound files From: "Dale Hardy" photon1@........... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 20:05:02 +1000 On a lighter side, I have been musing with soundfiles from Earthquakes, = so have created a web page with a few examples. I think a few will have a 'play' enjoy link http://www.daleh.id.au/earthquake_sounds.html regards Dale
 On a lighter side, I have been musing with soundfiles from=20 Earthquakes, so have created a web page with a few
examples. I think a few will have a 'play'
enjoy
 
link  http://www.daleh.i= d.au/earthquake_sounds.html
 
regards
Dale
Subject: Trigger From: tchannel1@............ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 08:14:53 -0600 Hi Folks, I would like to have or create a trigger program to work with = AmaSeis. I know very little about a trigger program, but I guess it = runs in the background and when an earthquake occurs it set off an = alarm, of some kind. I see some helicorders which show earthquakes in red and background = noise in black, and there maybe programs which trigger a .wav file or = something. If someone has info and experience on this subject, or even a program = please contact me. The only thing I would like, is so that it works = with AmaSeis as I use it as my helcorder. Thanks, Ted
Hi Folks,  I would like to have or = create a=20 trigger program to work with AmaSeis.  I know very little about a = trigger=20 program, but I guess it runs in the background and when an earthquake = occurs it=20 set off an alarm, of some kind.
 
I see some helicorders which show = earthquakes in=20 red and background noise in black, and there maybe programs which = trigger a .wav=20 file or something.
 
If someone has info and experience on = this subject,=20 or even a program please contact me.  The only thing I would like, = is so=20 that it works with AmaSeis as I use it as my helcorder.
 
Thanks, Ted
 
 
Subject: Re: Trigger From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 12:26:54 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/18, tchannel1@............ writes: > Hi Folks, I would like to have or create a trigger program to work with > AmaSeis. I know very little about a trigger program, but I guess it runs in > the background and when an earthquake occurs it set off an alarm, of some kind. Hi Ted, Amaseis is designed for continuous recording in 1 hour files. You can set the display high and low pass filters to 1 Hz and enhance the P waves. I don't see why a STA/LTA filter could not be provided to run a 'beep' on the computer, but you will have to ask Alan Jones about this. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/18, tchannel1@............ writes:

Hi Folks,  I would like to= have or create a trigger program to work with AmaSeis.  I know very li= ttle about a trigger program, but I guess it runs in the background and when= an earthquake occurs it set off an alarm, of some kind.


Hi Ted,

       Amaseis is designed for continuous reco= rding in 1 hour files. You can set the display high and low pass filters to=20= 1 Hz and enhance the P waves.

       I don't see why a STA/LTA filter could=20= not be provided to run a 'beep' on the computer, but you will have to ask Al= an Jones about this.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Mass vs. Coil From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:49:24 -0500 You gentlemen are so much advanced and more educate than I that I almost hesitate to ask this question. A lot of your discussions, especially math and physics, go right over my head. However, here goes: I have always wondered why a mass is needed. Why could not the coil itself be used as the mass on a pendulum seismometer? If I understand what I have read in my books (questionable), the size and weight of a mass has nothing to do with the period. Futhermore, I believe the length of the pendulum and supporting spring or wire on a horizontal or vertical sensor matters more for obtaining the wanted period, excluding friction loses etc. The coil is only the desired method of detecting movement. Regards, Jerry Payton
You gentlemen are so much advanced and more educate than I that I = almost=20 hesitate to ask this question.  A lot of your discussions, = especially math=20 and physics, go right over my head.  However, here goes:
 
I have always wondered why a mass is needed.  Why could = not the=20 coil itself  be used as the mass on a pendulum seismometer?  =
 
If  I understand what I have read in my books (questionable), = the size=20 and weight of a mass has nothing to do with the period.  = Futhermore, I=20 believe the length of the pendulum and supporting spring or wire on a = horizontal=20 or vertical sensor matters more for obtaining the wanted period, = excluding=20 friction loses etc.  The coil is only the desired method = of=20 detecting movement.
 
Regards,
Jerry Payton
 
 
Subject: Re: Mass vs. Coil From: tchannel1@............ Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 15:30:16 -0600 Hi Jerry, A lot of these discussions go over my head, for sure! However = Someone usually explains its in terms I can understand. A great thing = about the group is there are many levels of education, and just as = important, experiences. Someone will answer your question, better than me, but let me try just = from my experience. If the coil was large enough, you might use it as your mass. I have = seen horz sensors with large and small masses, from 8 ounces to 5 lbs. = Your period, will not change because of your mass. One to two kgs has = been recommended. Someone said the more mass the less movement from air = currents etc. I have one horz with 3 lbs, one with 5 lbs both work well = for me. On my sensors, don't know why, 1 lbs seemed too lite and 6 lbs = seemed too heavy. You might try 3...? On the vertical sensor the mass is whatever is necessary to balance the = spring. On my vertical, I placed a 1/4" threaded bolt and added washers = until it balanced the spring at the correct position.=20 If you are about to build your first sensor, let me know, as I have two = simple vertical versions, very low tech. which work well. Good luck, Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Payton=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 2:49 PM Subject: Mass vs. Coil You gentlemen are so much advanced and more educate than I that I = almost hesitate to ask this question. A lot of your discussions, = especially math and physics, go right over my head. However, here goes: I have always wondered why a mass is needed. Why could not the coil = itself be used as the mass on a pendulum seismometer? =20 If I understand what I have read in my books (questionable), the size = and weight of a mass has nothing to do with the period. Futhermore, I = believe the length of the pendulum and supporting spring or wire on a = horizontal or vertical sensor matters more for obtaining the wanted = period, excluding friction loses etc. The coil is only the desired = method of detecting movement.=20 Regards, Jerry Payton
Hi Jerry, A lot of these discussions go = over my=20 head, for sure!  However Someone usually explains its in terms I = can=20 understand.   A great thing about the group is there are many = levels=20 of education, and just as important, experiences.
Someone will answer your question, = better than me,=20 but let me try just from my experience.
 
If the coil was large enough, you might = use it as=20 your mass.  I have seen horz sensors with large and small masses, = from 8=20 ounces to 5 lbs.  Your period, will not change because of your = mass.=20  One  to two kgs has been recommended.  Someone said the = more=20 mass the less movement from air currents etc.  I have one horz with = 3 lbs,=20 one with 5 lbs both work well for me.  On my sensors, don't = know why,=20 1 lbs seemed too lite and 6 lbs seemed too heavy.  You might try=20 3...?
 
On the vertical sensor the mass is = whatever is=20 necessary to balance the spring.  On my vertical, I = placed a 1/4"=20 threaded bolt and added washers until = it balanced=20 the spring at the correct position.
 
If you are about to build your first = sensor, let me=20 know, as I have two simple vertical versions, very low tech. which work=20 well.
 
 
Good luck, Ted
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jerry = Payton=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 = 2:49=20 PM
Subject: Mass vs. Coil

You gentlemen are so much advanced and more educate than I that I = almost=20 hesitate to ask this question.  A lot of your discussions, = especially=20 math and physics, go right over my head.  However, here = goes:
 
I have always wondered why a mass is needed.  Why could = not the=20 coil itself  be used as the mass on a pendulum seismometer?  =
 
If  I understand what I have read in my books = (questionable), the=20 size and weight of a mass has nothing to do with the period.  = Futhermore,=20 I believe the length of the pendulum and supporting spring or wire on = a=20 horizontal or vertical sensor matters more for obtaining the wanted = period,=20 excluding friction loses etc.  The coil is only the = desired=20 method of detecting movement.
 
Regards,
Jerry Payton
 
 
Subject: Re: Mass vs. Coil From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:55:26 -0500 > Someone said the more mass the less movement from air currents etc. That is one good reason, that had not occurred to me, but might also be offset by a large coil of sufficient size & weight. > On the vertical sensor the mass is whatever is necessary to balance the > spring. By "balancing the spring", I assume you mean a pendulum suspended horizontally by a diagonal spring? > If you are about to build your first sensor, let me know, as I have two > simple vertical versions, very low tech. which work well. Ted, I had two sensors built by John Cole from Texas. One was a Lehman horz. and a custom vertical which was basically two custom-wound springs supporting a connecting metal beam that supported the coil which was suspended between the poles of the magnet. I "fiddled" with those two sensors for almost a year, spend hundreds of dollars in texts and finally gave up. I returned the devices to john, as he had requested. I'm still interested in seismology as witnessed by my monitoring this group. BUT, much of what is discussed is frankly over my head. Sensor "kits" are not available. Therefore, I remain somewhere between a "dumb ass" and a "wanta-be." Yes, I would like to see these low tech designs that you have and you may send them directly to me at ab5r @ cox dot net, if you wish. (BTW I still have Larry Cochran's electronics configured for two sensors and his software) Regards, Jerry
> Someone said the more mass the = less movement=20 from air currents etc. 
 
That = is one good=20 reason, that had not occurred to me, but might also be offset by a large = coil of=20 sufficient size & weight. 
 
> On the vertical sensor the mass is = whatever is=20 necessary to balance the spring. 
 
By "balancing the spring", I assume you = mean a=20 pendulum suspended horizontally by a diagonal spring?
 
> If you are about to build your = first sensor,=20 let me know, as I have two simple vertical versions, very low tech. = which work=20 well.
 
Ted, I had two sensors built by John = Cole from=20 Texas.  One was a Lehman horz. and a custom vertical which was = basically=20 two custom-wound springs supporting a connecting metal beam that = supported the=20 coil which was suspended between the poles of the magnet.  =
 
I "fiddled" with those two sensors for = almost a=20 year, spend hundreds of dollars in texts and finally gave up.  I = returned=20 the devices to john, as he had requested. 
 
I'm still interested in seismology as = witnessed by=20 my monitoring this group.  BUT, much of what is discussed is = frankly over=20 my head.  Sensor "kits" are not available. Therefore, I remain = somewhere=20 between a "dumb ass" and a "wanta-be." 
 
Yes, I would like to see these low tech = designs=20 that you have and you may send them directly to me at ab5r @ cox dot = net, if you=20 wish.
 
(BTW  I still have Larry Cochran's = electronics=20 configured for two sensors and his software)
 
Regards,
Jerry
 
 
Subject: Re: Mass vs. Coil From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:19:23 +1200 Jerry Payton wrote: > If I understand what I have read in my books (questionable), the size > and weight of a mass has nothing to do with the period. Hi jerry, I suggest you perform a simple experiment: Take a spring, perhaps the spatula for the kitchen. Clamp the handle to the edge of a table with your hand and give the blade a twang. Note the frequency. Now add some mass to the end. Perhaps some blu-tack and coins. Twang again and note the frequency. Cheers Mark __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mass vs. Coil From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:19:33 -0700 The spring constant dictates the period and all simple extension springs seem to behave according to the period and length of a pendulum. If you need 10 to 12 inched of wire to make a 1 second pendulum then whatever weight of mass will cause the sprint to drop ten or twelve inches from rest will give you the same period. This assumes no pretensioning of the extension spring and that it is linear in its response. The inches/pound spring constant will dictate the period depending upon the weight/mass applied. The longer the spring the more intense the temperature affects I do not know how to deal cheaply with the physical constants that are a nusance. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Payton" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 13:49 Subject: Mass vs. Coil > You gentlemen are so much advanced and more educate than I that I almost > hesitate to ask this question. A lot of your discussions, especially math > and physics, go right over my head. However, here goes: > > I have always wondered why a mass is needed. Why could not the coil itself > be used as the mass on a pendulum seismometer? > > If I understand what I have read in my books (questionable), the size and > weight of a mass has nothing to do with the period. Futhermore, I believe > the length of the pendulum and supporting spring or wire on a horizontal or > vertical sensor matters more for obtaining the wanted period, excluding > friction loses etc. The coil is only the desired method of detecting > movement. > > Regards, > Jerry Payton > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Springs again From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 21:33:56 EDT Hi Paul, Have you looked at my web pages at _http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html_ (http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html) There you will find a description and picture of my vertical sensor, which operates at a period of about 5 seconds. By the way, the coil is the most of the mass. Also there is a page describing my spring calculator for use in vertical seismometers. You would do well to download and experiment with the calculator. The trick to getting a long period is to arrange the geometry of the spring so that a decentering force is created to offset most of the restoring force of the spring. A zero-length spring automatically does this. You have to relocate the support point of the spring if it is not zero length. For an AS-1 type of seismometer, the upper end support of the spring should not be directly above the hinge, but back of it. This adjustment is very delicate if long period is the goal. For a sensor of the type you describe, the following links may be helpful: _http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm_ (http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm) _http://www.eas.slu.edu/People/STMorrissey/index.html_ (http://www.eas.slu.edu/People/STMorrissey/index.html) Cheers, Bob ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Hi Paul,
 
  Have you looked at my web pages at
 
  http://www.jcl= ahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/index.html
 
  There you will find a description and picture of my vertical sen= sor,=20 which operates at a period of about 5 seconds. By the way, the coil is the m= ost=20 of the mass.
 
  Also there is a page describing my spring calculator for use in=20 vertical seismometers. You would do well to download and experiment with the= =20 calculator. The trick to getting a long period is to arrange the geometry of= the=20 spring so that a decentering force is created to offset most of the restorin= g=20 force of the spring. A zero-length spring automatically does this. You have=20= to=20 relocate the support point of the spring if it is not zero length. For an AS= -1=20 type of seismometer, the upper end support of the spring should not be direc= tly=20 above the hinge, but back of it. This adjustment is very delicate if long pe= riod=20 is the goal.
 
  For a sensor of the type you describe, the following links may b= e=20 helpful:
 
  http://quake.ea= s.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm
 
  http://www.eas= ..slu.edu/People/STMorrissey/index.html
 
Cheers,
 
Bob



Get a snea= k peek of the all-new AOL.com. Subject: Re: Trigger From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:36:44 -0700 By trigger I assume you mean an ALARM it might be best as a TRIGGER/ALARM combination. That is what i do here at GVA. I recommend a frequency sensitive trigger that will respond only at or below one or two hertz. Look at only the positive half cycle and look at the contiguous ( yes contiguous) string of samples on the plus side that represents the freq of interest. Set a thresh hold above the baseline to measure the contiguous samples. Like a venus fly trap look for three triggers in a certain length of time. If you do not achive the proper alarm conditions reset everything to zero and start looking again. Make your recorder modulo 12 or 15 minutes and you should never miss any worthwhile Earthquakes. Make it modulo in RAM then when the recording is triggered complete the data set. Straighten out the modulo stuff just before you save the EQ file. When the alarm is triggered jump to the end of modulo secton to continue the recording in RAM to its ultimate limit before saving. You can do this all automatically with home written code. It would be nice if it were standardized tho. Use an UPS system to guard against power failures. One that will allow an hour or more of power loss. Make the numbers adjustable during operation so you do not have to recompile the program each time you want to make any changes. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 07:14 Subject: Trigger Hi Folks, I would like to have or create a trigger program to work with AmaSeis. I know very little about a trigger program, but I guess it runs in the background and when an earthquake occurs it set off an alarm, of some kind. I see some helicorders which show earthquakes in red and background noise in black, and there maybe programs which trigger a .wav file or something. If someone has info and experience on this subject, or even a program please contact me. The only thing I would like, is so that it works with AmaSeis as I use it as my helcorder. Thanks, Ted __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Kiril sound files From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 18:41:13 -0700 I have noticed in my files that are limited to 0.2 to 2 Hz that the teleseismic waves make a BOOM like thunder and the regional ones sound like books being dropped and bouncing. Also that human activity other than mining would have a hard time impersonating these sounds. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Hardy" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 03:05 Subject: Re: Kiril sound files On a lighter side, I have been musing with soundfiles from Earthquakes, so have created a web page with a few examples. I think a few will have a 'play' enjoy link http://www.daleh.id.au/earthquake_sounds.html regards Dale __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mass vs. Coil From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 22:15:53 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/18, gpayton880@....... writes: > I have always wondered why a mass is needed. Why could not the coil itself > be used as the mass on a pendulum seismometer? Hi Jerry, It could be and it has been. But a coil may not be quite as dimensionally stable as a solid mass and you don't really need large coils in these days, with NdFeB magnets readily available. One substitute for a mass is to use a 1/4" to 3/8" thick horizontal copper plate for both the mass and the damping blade. Winding a coil of maybe 1 lb of wire takes a lot of time and care - apart from the cost! I find coil winding an effort, not a pleasure! The biggest coil that I ever wound was 80,000 turns and it took several days to make with interleaved doped paper layers. You need a certain mass for the motion not to be swamped by thermal or environmental agitation / noise. It is the product M x T x Q, which is important for noise considerations, not just the mass M. T is the set period and Q is the mechanical analogue of the intrinsic damping (w x L / R for an oscillating circuit). > If I understand what I have read in my books (questionable), the size and > weight of a mass has nothing to do with the period. Certainly in theory, but you have to suspend the mass at the end of an arm, which needs to be light in comparison to the mass - otherwise it seriously shortens the period. You are in practice limited by the materials that you can easily buy. You need the distance between the centre of mass and the hinge to be maximised. You need a certain minimum mass to get over thermal excitation, but usually a lot more to avoid the effects of small air currents and tiny losses in the suspension system. The arm / suspension needs to be very rigid. Very light mass systems may appear unstable, noisy or 'sticky'. Not all suspension systems are equal, some have much more inbuilt friction / losses than others. The point in a cup and the real knife edge suspensions are particularly poor. The ball on a plane and crossed cylinders are much better. Furthermore, I believe the length of the pendulum and supporting spring or wire on a > horizontal or vertical sensor matters more for obtaining the wanted period, > excluding friction loses etc. The coil is only the desired method of > detecting movement. If you hang up the mass by the boom and hinge vertically, it will have a period given ~by the usual formula 2 x Pi x Sqrt(L/g). You then reduce the restoring force by suspending it a small angle to the vertical to get the 'garden gate' arrangement. Getting an increase in period of x10 is not difficult (1/100 of g), but larger increases get progressively more difficult, as the suspension angle gets below 0.3 of a degree. This also makes the system highly sensitive to ground tilt effects, more difficult to adjust and keep in adjustment and it requires a very good low loss suspension or you will find that you can't get stable long periods. Electromagnetic damping is usually used. It can be made simple and easy to adjust. You can use quad magnets on mild steel backing plates and a Copper blade, or you can use larger quad magnets to drive the sensor coil and put a variable load resistor across that. I prefer the damping blade, since you can use it to limit the swing of the arm and it has the lowest noise. Oil damping tends to be relatively difficult to adjust, non linear in it's effect and very temperature sensitive. It is also messy. Oil creeps over most surfaces and they then collect dust and dirt. The operation looks superficially simple, but it is a headache waiting to happen. Verticals use a spring of some sort to counterbalance the gravitational force. You can get periods out to about 5 seconds with ordinary steel springs, but the thermal drift of the spring constant limits you. The system just 'collapses'. Professional systems use NiSpanC springs which are extremely stable. There are a variety of possible sensors. The simplest is the magnet + coil velocity sensor. These are OK for 'normal' use, but are noise limited at long periods, say over 60 seconds. Optical and Hall magnetic effect position sensors can also be used on amateur equipment. Professional equipment tends to use LVDT magnetic or LCDT capacitative sensors. The LVDT types have a noise limit of about 0.1 nm. Capacitative types can get an extra factor of 100 on this. Force feedback may be used with a position sensor to stabilise the operating position and to extend the natural period of the seismometer. This is a very rough description of the 'background' to amateur seismometer design. Most of the limitations are practical - there are good and not so good ways of making things, relatively cheap and quite expensive materials. Choosing only the cheapest options are likely to limit the performance. Hope that it is of some help / interest. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/18, gpayton880@....... writes:

I have always wondered why a ma= ss is needed.  Why could not the coil itself be used as the mass on a p= endulum seismometer?


Hi Jerry,

       It could be and it has been. But a coil= may not be quite as dimensionally stable as a solid mass and you don't real= ly need large coils in these days, with NdFeB magnets readily available. One= substitute for a mass is to use a 1/4" to 3/8" thick horizontal copper plat= e for both the mass and the damping blade. Winding a coil of maybe 1 lb of w= ire takes a lot of time and care - apart from the cost! I find coil winding=20= an effort, not a pleasure! The biggest coil that I ever wound was 80,000 tur= ns and it took several days to make with interleaved doped paper layers.

       You need a certain mass for the motion=20= not to be swamped by thermal or environmental agitation / noise.
    It is the product M x T x Q, which is important for noise= considerations, not just the mass M. T is the set period and Q is the mecha= nical analogue of the intrinsic damping (w x L / R for an oscillating circui= t).

If I understand what I have re= ad in my books (questionable), the size and weight of a mass has nothing to=20= do with the period. 


       Certainly in theory, but you have to s= uspend the mass at the end of an arm, which needs to be light in comparison=20= to the mass - otherwise it seriously shortens the period. You are in practic= e limited by the materials that you can easily buy. You need the distance be= tween the centre of mass and the hinge to be maximised. You need a certain m= inimum mass to get over thermal excitation, but usually a lot more to avoid=20= the effects of small air currents and tiny losses in the suspension system.=20= The arm / suspension needs to be very rigid. Very light mass systems may app= ear unstable, noisy or 'sticky'.
       Not all suspension systems are equal, s= ome have much more inbuilt friction / losses than others. The point in a cup= and the real knife edge suspensions are particularly poor. The ball on a pl= ane and crossed cylinders are much better.

Furthermore, I believe the length of the pendulum and supporting spring or w= ire on a
horizontal or vertical sensor=20= matters more for obtaining the wanted period, excluding friction loses etc.&= nbsp; The coil is only the desired method of detecting movement.

       If you hang up the mass by the boom and= hinge vertically, it will have a period given ~by the usual formula 2 x Pi=20= x Sqrt(L/g). You then reduce the restoring force by suspending it a small an= gle to the vertical to get the 'garden gate' arrangement. Getting an increas= e in period of x10 is not difficult (1/100 of g), but larger increases get p= rogressively more difficult, as the suspension angle gets below 0.3 of a deg= ree. This also makes the system highly sensitive to ground tilt effects, mor= e difficult to adjust and keep in adjustment and it requires a very good low= loss suspension or you will find that you can't get stable long periods.
       Electromagnetic damping is usually used= .. It can be made simple and easy to adjust. You can use quad magnets on mild= steel backing plates and a Copper blade, or you can use larger quad magnets= to drive the sensor coil and put a variable load resistor across that. I pr= efer the damping blade, since you can use it to limit the swing of the arm a= nd it has the lowest noise.
       Oil damping tends to be relatively diff= icult to adjust, non linear in it's effect and very temperature sensitive. I= t is also messy. Oil creeps over most surfaces and they then collect dust an= d dirt. The operation looks superficially simple, but it is a headache waiti= ng to happen.

       Verticals use a spring of some sort to=20= counterbalance the gravitational force. You can get periods out to about 5 s= econds with ordinary steel springs, but the thermal drift of the spring cons= tant limits you. The system just 'collapses'. Professional systems use NiSpa= nC springs which are extremely stable.

       There are a variety of possible sensors= .. The simplest is the magnet + coil velocity sensor. These are OK for 'norma= l' use, but are noise limited at long periods, say over 60 seconds. Optical=20= and Hall magnetic effect position sensors can also be used on amateur equipm= ent. Professional equipment tends to use LVDT magnetic or LCDT capacitative=20= sensors. The LVDT types have a noise limit of about 0.1 nm. Capacitative typ= es can get an extra factor of 100 on this.

       Force feedback may be used with a posit= ion sensor to stabilise the operating position and to extend the natural per= iod of the seismometer.

       This is a very rough description of the= 'background' to amateur seismometer design. Most of the limitations are pra= ctical - there are good and not so good ways of making things, relatively ch= eap and quite expensive materials. Choosing only the cheapest options are li= kely to limit the performance.

       Hope that it is of some help / interest= ..

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400 Because of the recent interest in FFT's, I have posted some files on my webpage at http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how the Fourier transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version) is SO MUCH better than the discrete FT (for which there is much needless, repetitive calculations). The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it is safe to use) and some data files have been posted to the site so that you can run test cases. test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a period of 17 s and the other 1000 s. The 0704 file is a record of the Solomon Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter. Before you can use the files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to *.dat. This suffix must be typed in along with the filename when you are prompted for the input file. I have included the basic file from which the executable was created by QuickBasic (dos version which I've used for about 15 years). For those who might want to create a 'streaming' executable that operates on binary data, I can give you a sample file to look at--from there you will be 'on your own'. The FFT code that I've used is based on the structure given in the very excellent "Numerical Recipes" book by Press et al, with which most scientists are familiar. I hope that many of you will want to also transition from the FFT to the power spectral density (PSD), since the former is instrument dependent, whereas the latter is not (transfer function of the instrument used to provide correction). With the PSD, individuals having different hardware designs could still do meaningful comparison of their data. Some of you may wonder how I ever learned how to do the things posted on this webpage. Answer--years ago I became interested in the Fourier Transform because of its enormous importance to physics in general. I actually coded some early personal computers (with abysmally small memory) to do the necessary calculations. When speed was also abysmally slow, I became interested in the incredible improvement to be realized with the 'fast' version. The vector graphics form that I've provided in the pdf descriptions enables one to appreciate why the Cooley-Tukey algorithm allow 'technology to fly'. I enjoy the discussions on the listserve even though I have not been a frequent contributor to them. Keep up the good work; you guys are great! Randall psn-l-digest-request@.............. wrote: > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Springs again > From: "Paul Cianciolo" > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:07:36 -0400 > > Hello Folks, > > I have been building a vertical sensor for the past few weeks, doing lots of > experiments. > > It seems that the longer the spring, the longer the period... As a rough > rule of thumb. > I also remember Chris explaining about a "Zero Length" spring. > > My vertical sensor is the type with a lever arm that is 26" long with a mass > at one end. > The other end of the lever arm has a pivot point about 2" from the end, and > a spring on the end to a base plate. > > This arrangement certainly not a new idea, is new to me., > This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period. > By careful adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary the > period and the mass needed to achieve balance. > > 2 questions. > > 1) What is the relationship between spring position, pivot location, and > mass weight. > As I would like to try to optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid > path to follow. > > 2) If a rule of thumb....the longer the spring, the greater the period, > within the obvious constraints applies. > Has or why not has a vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring, > mainspring, arrangement been tried. > > Sort of a torsion spring, but one with many turns and greater length. > Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement equates to a longer > spring is faulty? > > Please comment > > Thank You > > PauLC > W1VLF > Station VLF in Connecticut. > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 2 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Springs again > From: ChrisAtUpw@....... > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 22:26:18 EDT > > --part1_c43.15acd5bc.33ced44a_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 2007/07/17, Paulc@........ writes: > > > My vertical sensor is the type with a lever arm that is 26" long with a > > mass > > at one end. > > The other end of the lever arm has a pivot point about 2" from the end, and > > a spring on the end to a base plate. > > Hi Paul, > > This is a bit difficult to visualise. Can you make a rough drawing > using text characters? > > > This arrangement certainly not a new idea, is new to me., > > This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period. > > By careful adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary the > > period and the mass needed to achieve balance. > > You can get out to 4 or 5 seconds, but beyond this you need NiSpanC > springs to keep the system stable with ambient temperature variations. However, > you can extend this period either electronically or using software up to ~x10. > See the Roberts circuit for geophones in psn references and on John Lahr's > website. It may be easier to make a system for 2.5 seconds and then extend this > to 25 seconds. > The spring attachment point needs to be maybe 1/2" to 1" above the > horizontal arm. > > > 2 questions. > > > > 1) What is the relationship between spring position, pivot location, and > > mass weight. > > As I would like to try to optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid > > path to follow. > > How good is your applied maths? This is a fairly simple triangle of > forces problem. You usually start with a coil spring and adjust the arm, mass > etc to suit. > > See the spring calculator at > http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html and also > http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/vert1/vert2.html > > Is your seismometer design anything like > http://jclahr.com/science/psn/hill/index.html ? I would strongly advise you to use electromagnetic damping > as opposed to oil. > > Have a look at http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm > > > 2) If a rule of thumb....the longer the spring, the greater the period, > > within the obvious constraints applies. > > Has or why not has a vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring, > > mainspring, arrangement been tried. > > This is just how long period verticals are designed, but using long > triangular shaped leaf springs. Clock type coil springs have too many vibration > modes. 'Mouse trap' type torsion coil springs have been used. > > For a simple spring, the extension E = g x T^2 / (2 x Pi)^2, where T > is the period. Thus to get a period of say 10 sec, you need an extension of > ~25 metres.... > > > Sort of a torsion spring, but one with many turns and greater length. > > Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement equates to a longer > > spring is faulty? > > No, but this cannot be extended very far, or you start to see the > spring vibration modes. > > You can also make a very good horizontal seismometer using a U tube > water manometer. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > > --part1_c43.15acd5bc.33ced44a_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > In a me= > ssage dated 2007/07/17, Paulc@........ writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My vertical sensor is the type=20= > with a lever arm that is 26" long with a mass
> at one end.
> The other end of the lever arm has a pivot point about 2" from the end, and<= > BR> > a spring on the end to a base plate. #ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"= > SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

>
> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >Hi Paul,
>
>        This is a bit difficult to visualise. C= > an you make a rough drawing using text characters? 0000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE= > =3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">This arrangement certainly not=20= > a new idea, is new to me.,
> This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period.
> By careful adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary the= >
> period and the mass needed to achieve balance. " BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10=20= > FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

>
> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >       You can get out to 4 or 5 seconds, but= > beyond this you need NiSpanC springs to keep the system stable with ambient= > temperature variations. However, you can extend this period either electron= > ically or using software up to ~x10. See the Roberts circuit for geophones i= > n psn references and on John Lahr's website. It may be easier to make a syst= > em for 2.5 seconds and then extend this to 25 seconds.
>        The spring attachment point needs to be= > maybe 1/2" to 1" above the horizontal arm. ACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAM= > ILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">2 questions.
>
> 1) What is the relationship between spring position, pivot location, and
> mass weight.
> As I would like to try to optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid R> > path to follow. KGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Ar= > ial" LANG=3D"0">

> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >
>        How good is your applied maths? This is= > a fairly simple triangle of forces problem. You usually start with a coil s= > pring and adjust the arm, mass etc to suit.
>
>        See the spring calculator at http://jcl= > ahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html and also http://jclahr.com= > /science/psn/mcclure/vert1/vert2.html
>
>        Is your seismometer design anything lik= > e http://jclahr.com/science/psn/hill/index.html ? I would strongly advise yo= > u to use electromagnetic damping as opposed to oil.
>
>        Have a look at http://quake.eas.gatech.= > edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF= > " FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">2) If a rule of thumb....the lo= > nger the spring, the greater the period,
> within the obvious constraints applies.
> Has or why not has a vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring,
> mainspring,  arrangement been tried. K=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMIL= > Y=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">

>
> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >       This is just how long period verticals= > are designed, but using long triangular shaped leaf springs. Clock type coi= > l springs have too many vibration modes. 'Mouse trap' type torsion coil spri= > ngs have been used. =3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FAC= > E=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
> #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 PTSIZE=3D10 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"= > >
>         For a simple spring, the extensio= > n E =3D g x T^2 / (2 x Pi)^2, where T is the period. Thus to get a period of= > say 10 sec, you need an extension of ~25 metres....
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Sort of a torsion spring, but o= > ne with many turns and greater length.
> Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement equates to a longer R> > spring is faulty?

>
>        No, but this cannot be extended very fa= > r, or you start to see the spring vibration modes.
>
>        You can also make a very good horizonta= > l seismometer using a U tube water manometer.
>
>        Regards,
>
>        Chris Chapman > > --part1_c43.15acd5bc.33ced44a_boundary-- > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 3 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: FFT Code > From: Barry Lotz > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 21:22:37 -0700 (PDT) > > --0-1895494773-1184732557=:22985 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Hi Bob > this thread reminds me - > > I had a Fortran fft program that I picked up years ago. I converted it to Quick Basic with success. I tried to convert it to assembly language to run faster but I had problems with the rounding off of numbers. I wrote a triggering program with the fft routine to do short term /long term averaging with frequency rather than amplitude. You could choose the frequency zones for monitoring (avoiding known noisy frequencies). It also worked well . (written in Quick basic) I wanted the program to be able to learn the difference between a near and teleseismic event but never got there. When the recording of the "fft amplitude/area under the curve" fell below the running long term average the recording of the event stopped. I could look at my computer screen after coming home from work an could instantly see blips on the screen from possible events. I fell in to the easy mode now by recording continuously and then looking on the internet every couple of days for events that I > think may have been recorded by my sensors. I am thinking of "blowing the dust off and starting again with the investigation. > regards > Barry > PS back when computers were slow the was a frequency transform called a Walsh transform which used square waves rather than sine waves. It ran quite fast but I guess became useless when processors stepped up. > > --0-1895494773-1184732557=:22985 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >
Hi Bob
this thread reminds me - 
 
I had a Fortran fft program that I picked up years ago. I converted it to Quick Basic with success. I tried to convert it to assembly language to run faster but I had problems with the rounding off of numbers. I wrote a triggering program with the fft routine to do short term /long term averaging with frequency rather than amplitude. You could choose the frequency zones for monitoring (avoiding known noisy frequencies). It also worked well . (written in Quick basic) I wanted the program to be able to learn the difference between a near and teleseismic event but never got there. When the recording of the "fft amplitude/area under the curve" fell below the running long term average the recording of the event stopped. I could look at my computer screen after coming home from work an could instantly see blips on the screen from possible events. I fell in to the easy mode > now by recording continuously and then looking on the internet every couple of days for events that I think may have been recorded by my sensors. I am thinking of "blowing the dust off and starting again with the investigation.
regards
Barry
PS  back when computers were slow the was a frequency transform called a Walsh transform which used square waves rather than sine waves. It ran quite fast but I guess became useless when processors stepped up.

> --0-1895494773-1184732557=:22985-- > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. Subject: RE: Springs again From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 13:46:51 -0400 Hello Chris, Thanks again as always for the help. I have abandoned the geometry I was using (at least for the moment) in favor of the the" AS-1 like" geometry you suggested. A very quick couple of experiments on the bench showed with the same pendulum length that I had been using, period went from 1.1 secs to a bit over 3 secs. This was done using springs that I had in the junk drawer, but had overlooked since the previous model used a much shorter spring. Pivot I MASS ----@----@--------------------------------------------------- MASS S MASS P R I N G __________________________________________________________________________ __________ Chris, In the picture above the spring provides upward restoration. The pivot is a hard steel rod with its axis horizontal and perpendicular with the pendulum. The springs was a valve spring several types from different engines. My thought was if I could get a "clock" spring to work, place it at the pivot point and then build lateral bearings. The assumption was that the clock spring would appear as a very long spring since it was wound on itself. For the time being I will stick with the AS-1 architecture. The purpose here is to log close in events. Thank you PauLC iginal Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of ChrisAtUpw@....... Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:26 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Springs again In a message dated 2007/07/17, Paulc@........ writes: My vertical sensor is the type with a lever arm that is 26" long with a mass at one end. The other end of the lever arm has a pivot point about 2" from the end, and a spring on the end to a base plate. Hi Paul, This is a bit difficult to visualise. Can you make a rough drawing using text characters? This arrangement certainly not a new idea, is new to me., This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period. By careful adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary the period and the mass needed to achieve balance. You can get out to 4 or 5 seconds, but beyond this you need NiSpanC springs to keep the system stable with ambient temperature variations. However, you can extend this period either electronically or using software up to ~x10. See the Roberts circuit for geophones in psn references and on John Lahr's website. It may be easier to make a system for 2.5 seconds and then extend this to 25 seconds. The spring attachment point needs to be maybe 1/2" to 1" above the horizontal arm. 2 questions. 1) What is the relationship between spring position, pivot location, and mass weight. As I would like to try to optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid path to follow. How good is your applied maths? This is a fairly simple triangle of forces problem. You usually start with a coil spring and adjust the arm, mass etc to suit. See the spring calculator at http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html and also http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/vert1/vert2.html Is your seismometer design anything like http://jclahr.com/science/psn/hill/index.html ? I would strongly advise you to use electromagnetic damping as opposed to oil. Have a look at http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm 2) If a rule of thumb....the longer the spring, the greater the period, within the obvious constraints applies. Has or why not has a vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring, mainspring, arrangement been tried. This is just how long period verticals are designed, but using long triangular shaped leaf springs. Clock type coil springs have too many vibration modes. 'Mouse trap' type torsion coil springs have been used. For a simple spring, the extension E = g x T^2 / (2 x Pi)^2, where T is the period. Thus to get a period of say 10 sec, you need an extension of ~25 metres.... Sort of a torsion spring, but one with many turns and greater length. Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement equates to a longer spring is faulty? No, but this cannot be extended very far, or you start to see the spring vibration modes. You can also make a very good horizontal seismometer using a U tube water manometer. Regards, Chris Chapman
Hello=20 Chris,
 
Thanks=20 again as always for the help.
 
I have=20 abandoned the geometry I was using (at least for the moment) in favor of = the=20 the" AS-1 like" geometry you suggested.
A very=20 quick couple of experiments on the bench showed with the = same pendulum=20 length that I had been using,  period went from 1.1 secs to a bit = over 3=20 secs.
 
This=20 was done using springs that I had in the junk drawer, but had overlooked = since=20 the previous model used a much shorter spring.
          &nbs= p;            = ;        
          &nbs= p;            = ;        =20 Pivot      
          &nbs= p;          =20             &= nbsp;I         &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;        =20   MASS
          &nbs= p;   =20 ----@----@---------------------------------------------------MASS<= /SPAN>
     =20             &= nbsp;       =20 S         &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;          =20    =20 MASS           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p; =20
           &nbs= p;            = ;            =          =20 P
          &nbs= p;            = ;        =20             &= nbsp; =20 R
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20      I
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =          =20   N
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =        =20    G
 =20 _________________________________________________________________________= ___________
       &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;                 &nbs= p;            = ;            =                   &nbs= p;            = ;            =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           
Chris,
 
In the picture above the spring = provides upward=20 restoration.
The pivot is a hard = steel rod with=20 its axis horizontal and perpendicular with the pendulum.
 
The springs was a valve = spring=20 several types from different engines.
 
My thought was if I = could get a=20 "clock" spring to work, place it at the pivot point and then build = lateral=20 bearings.
 
The assumption was that = the clock=20 spring would appear as a very long spring since it was wound on=20 itself.
 
For the time being I = will stick with=20 the AS-1 architecture.
 
The purpose here is to = log close in=20 events.
 
Thank you
 
PauLC
 
 
 
 
 
 
iginal Message-----
From:=20 psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On = Behalf=20 Of ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 10:26=20 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: Springs=20 again

In = a message=20 dated 2007/07/17, Paulc@........ writes:

My vertical sensor is the type with a lever arm that is = 26" long=20 with a mass
at one end.
The other end of the lever arm has a = pivot=20 point about 2" from the end, and
a spring on the end to a base=20 plate.


Hi=20 Paul,

       This is a bit = difficult to=20 visualise. Can you make a rough drawing using text = characters?

This arrangement certainly not a new idea, is new to=20 me.,
This arrangement yields a 1.1 approx. sec period.
By = careful=20 adjustment of the pivot point and spring location, I can vary = the
period=20 and the mass needed to achieve balance.


       You can=20 get out to 4 or 5 seconds, but beyond this you need NiSpanC springs to = keep=20 the system stable with ambient temperature variations. However, you = can extend=20 this period either electronically or using software up to ~x10. See = the=20 Roberts circuit for geophones in psn references and on John Lahr's = website. It=20 may be easier to make a system for 2.5 seconds and then extend this to = 25=20 seconds.
       The spring attachment = point=20 needs to be maybe 1/2" to 1" above the horizontal arm.

2 questions.

1) What is the relationship between = spring=20 position, pivot location, and
mass weight.
As I would like to = try to=20 optimize this design , if indeed this is a valid
path to=20 follow.

       How=20 good is your applied maths? This is a fairly simple triangle of forces = problem. You usually start with a coil spring and adjust the arm, mass = etc to=20 suit.

       See the spring = calculator at=20 http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html and also=20 = http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/vert1/vert2.html

  = ;    =20 Is your seismometer design anything like=20 http://jclahr.com/science/psn/hill/index.html ? I would strongly = advise you to=20 use electromagnetic damping as opposed to=20 oil.

       Have a look at=20 http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm

2) If a rule of thumb....the longer the spring, the = greater the=20 period,
within the obvious constraints applies.
Has or why not = has a=20 vertical sensor been tried with a watch spring,
mainspring,  = arrangement been tried.

       This is=20 just how long period verticals are designed, but using long triangular = shaped=20 leaf springs. Clock type coil springs have too many vibration modes. = 'Mouse=20 trap' type torsion coil springs have been used.

        For a = simple=20 spring, the extension E =3D g x T^2 / (2 x Pi)^2, where T is the = period. Thus to=20 get a period of say 10 sec, you need an extension of ~25 = metres....

Sort of a torsion spring, but one with many turns and = greater=20 length.
Perhaps my assumption that the main spring arrangement = equates to=20 a longer
spring is=20 faulty?

       No, = but this=20 cannot be extended very far, or you start to see the spring vibration = modes.=20

       You can also make a very = good=20 horizontal seismometer using a U tube water=20 manometer.

      =20 Regards,

       Chris = Chapman=20 Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:04:26 EDT Hi Randall, I tried out your QuickBasic program using the compiled program and running from the source code. Changing the file name is not necessary, so long as you enter the complete name. You neglected to tell users what keys to use to re-run or terminate the program. Cheers, Bob ~~~~~~~~~~Original Message~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400 Because of the recent interest in FFT's, I have posted some files on my webpage at _http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html_ (http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html) The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how the Fourier transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version) is SO MUCH better than the discrete FT (for which there is much needless, repetitive calculations). The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it is safe to use) and some data files have been posted to the site so that you can run test cases. test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a period of 17 s and the other 1000 s. The 0704 file is a record of the Solomon Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter. Before you can use the files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to *.dat. This suffix must be typed in along with the filename when you are prompted for the input file. ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Hi Randall,
 
  I tried out your QuickBasic program using the compiled program a= nd=20 running from the source code. Changing the file name is not necessary, so lo= ng=20 as you enter the complete name.
 
  You neglected to tell users what keys to use to re-run or termin= ate=20 the program. 
 
Cheers,
 
Bob
 
~~~~~~~~~~Original Message~~~~~~~~~~~
Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20
From: Randall Peters=20 PETERS_RD@..........
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400
 
Because of  the recent interest in FFT's, I have posted some files= on=20 my webpage at
http://physics.mercer.= edu/hpage/psn/psn.html
 =20 The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how the Fourier=20 transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version)
is SO MUCH=20 better than the discrete FT (for which there is much needless, repetitive=20 calculations).
  The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it= is=20 safe to use) and some data files have been posted to the site so that you ca= n=20 run test cases.  test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a peri= od=20 of 17 s and the other 1000 s.  The 0704 file is a record of the Solomon= =20 Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter.  Before you can u= se=20 the files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to *.dat.  This su= ffix=20 must be typed in along with the filename when you are prompted for the input= =20 file.



Get a sneak p= eek of the all-new AOL.com.
= Subject: RE: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 From: "Stephen Hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 10:25:46 -0700 I was wondering if anybody has written a Java program that uses Larry's PSN formatted data. I would be interested in seeing the source code and what they did with it. Steve Hammond PSN San Jose, CA -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Bobhelenmcclure@....... Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 8:04 AM To: psn-l@............... PETERS_RD@.......... Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 Hi Randall, I tried out your QuickBasic program using the compiled program and running from the source code. Changing the file name is not necessary, so long as you enter the complete name. You neglected to tell users what keys to use to re-run or terminate the program. Cheers, Bob ~~~~~~~~~~Original Message~~~~~~~~~~~ Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400 Because of the recent interest in FFT's, I have posted some files on my webpage at http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how the Fourier transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version) is SO MUCH better than the discrete FT (for which there is much needless, repetitive calculations). The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it is safe to use) and some data files have been posted to the site so that you can run test cases. test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a period of 17 s and the other 1000 s. The 0704 file is a record of the Solomon Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter. Before you can use the files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to *.dat. This suffix must be typed in along with the filename when you are prompted for the input file. _____ Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com .

I was wondering = if anybody has written a Java program that uses Larry’s PSN formatted = data. I would be interested in seeing the source code and what they did with it. =

Steve Hammond PSN = San Jose, CA

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Bobhelenmcclure@.......
Sent: Saturday, July 21, = 2007 8:04 AM
To: psn-l@............... PETERS_RD@..........
Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20

 

Hi = Randall,

 

  I tried out your QuickBasic program using the compiled program and = running from the source code. Changing the file name is not necessary, so long as you = enter the complete name.

 

  You neglected to tell users what keys to use to re-run or terminate the program. 

 

Cheers,

 

Bob

 

~~~~~~~~~~Origin= al Message~~~~~~~~~~~

Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20
From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@..........
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400

 

Because of  the recent interest in FFT's, I have posted some files on my = webpage at
http://physics.merc= er.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html
  The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how = the Fourier transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version)
is SO MUCH better than the discrete FT (for which there is much = needless, repetitive calculations).
  The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it is safe to = use) and some data files have been posted to the site so that you can run test cases.  test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a period of = 17 s and the other 1000 s.  The 0704 file is a record of the Solomon = Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter.  Before you can use the = files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to *.dat.  This suffix = must be typed in along with the filename when you are prompted for the input = file.



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.

Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 20:04:33 -0400 Thanks, Bob. I did eventually realize my failure to mention 'x' to terminate and 'r' to rerun. Randall Bobhelenmcclure@....... wrote: > Hi Randall, I tried out your QuickBasic program using the compiled > program and running from the source code. Changing the file name is > not necessary, so long as you enter the complete name. You neglected > to tell users what keys to use to re-run or terminate the > program. Cheers, Bob ~~~~~~~~~~Original Message~~~~~~~~~~~Subject: Re: > Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 > From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... > Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400 Because of the recent interest > in FFT's, I have posted some files on my webpage at > http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html > The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how the > Fourier transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version) > is SO MUCH better than the discrete FT (for which there is much > needless, repetitive calculations). > The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it is safe to use) > and some data files have been posted to the site so that you can run > test cases. test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a period > of 17 s and the other 1000 s. The 0704 file is a record of the > Solomon Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter. Before > you can use the files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to > *.dat. This suffix must be typed in along with the filename when you > are prompted for the input file. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. Thanks, Bob.  I did eventually realize my failure to mention 'x' to terminate and 'r' to rerun.
   Randall

Bobhelenmcclure@....... wrote:

 Hi Randall,   I tried out your QuickBasic program using the compiled program and running from the source code. Changing the file name is not necessary, so long as you enter the complete name.   You neglected to tell users what keys to use to re-run or terminate the program. Cheers, Bob ~~~~~~~~~~Original Message~~~~~~~~~~~Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20
From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@..........
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400 Because of  the recent interest in FFT's, I have posted some files on my webpage at
http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html
  The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how the Fourier transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version)
is SO MUCH better than the discrete FT (for which there is much needless, repetitive calculations).
  The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it is safe to use) and some data files have been posted to the site so that you can run test cases.  test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a period of 17 s and the other 1000 s.  The 0704 file is a record of the Solomon Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter.  Before you can use the files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to *.dat.  This suffix must be typed in along with the filename when you are prompted for the input file.
 
 
Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: Re: Digest from 07/21/2007 00:00:38 From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:24:22 EDT Hi Steve, I do not code in Java, but I have code in Visual Basic 6.0 which reads, filters, and writes PSN files (my WQFilter.exe utility). Alan Jones is working on a Java version of AmaSeis. He probably has a Java routine for making PSN files. Bob McClure In a message dated 07/22/2007 03:00:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, _shammon1@.......... (mailto:shammon1@.......... writes: I was wondering if anybody has written a Java program that uses Larry's PSN formatted data. I would be interested in seeing the source code and what they did with it. Steve Hammond PSN San Jose, CA ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Hi Steve,
 
  I do not code in Java, but I have code in Visual Basic 6.0=20 which reads, filters, and writes PSN files (my WQFilter.exe utility). Alan J= ones=20 is working on a Java version of AmaSeis. He probably has a Java routine for=20 making PSN files.
 
Bob McClure
 
In a message dated 07/22/2007 03:00:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, shammon1@......... writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>I was=20 wondering if anybody has written a Java program that uses Larry's
PSN=20 formatted data. I would be interested in seeing the source code and
wha= t=20 they did with it.
Steve Hammond PSN San Jose,=20 CA
 



Get a sneak pe= ek of the all-new AOL.com.
<= /BODY> Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Kverkfj=F6ll?= Volcano activite update notice #1 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 02:14:08 +0000 Hi all This is my first offical volcano update notice on a possible eruption in Iceland. It appears that the volcano system Kverkfj=F6ll is on the move, but there has been a series of small earthquakes in the Kverkfj=F6ll fissure swarm. There have been many small earthquakes recorded, most of them happen at the depth of ~20 km, but the depth is down to 1 km. But since the swarm started six months ago. Icelandic Met office has recored about ~2000 earthquakes at the location, but the location is called "Upptyppinga", but that are a mountin far as I can tell. IMO has incresed it's survilance of the area. I will send out a new upate notice on the activie soon as I know more. Here are information on the volcano. http://www.volcano.si.edu/world/volcano.cfm?vnum=3D1703-05=3D I have recored few earthquakes from that area, but the strongest onces did go up to ~2.7M. But most of the earthquakes are mag -1.0 to 2.7 at 20 to 1 km depth. This notice is based on a news I did see on a Icelandic news web. I am going to collect more info tomorrow (Monday). Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: winquake event report From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 20:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Hi I have had some recent problems with obtaining event reports via an historical lookup using data@............... I has worked well in the recent past. Has something changed? regards Barry
Hi
  I have had some recent problems with obtaining event reports via an historical lookup using data@binghamton.edu. I has worked well in the recent past. Has something changed?
regards
Barry
 
Subject: Spring Damping. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 14:58:32 -0400 Folks, I just finished up a vertical sensor with an AS-1 like suspension. After looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading about it, I cannot see any information about the damping of the suspension spring. Does any one have one of these? What am I missing because the spring being used here while allow in for almost 4 sec. period, once excited rings for a long time. It seems that a magnet mounted in the center of the spring, and an aluminum plate is very effective in reducing these. Any ideas? My spring is ferrous, and I would like to get a non ferrous replacement. PauLC W1VLF
Folks,
 
I just=20 finished up a  vertical  sensor with an AS-1 like=20 suspension.
After=20 looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading about it, I cannot see any = information=20 about the damping of the suspension spring.
 
Does=20 any one have one of these?  What am I missing because the spring = being used=20 here while allow in for almost 4 sec. period, once = excited rings for a=20 long time.
 
It=20 seems that a magnet mounted in the center of the spring, and an = aluminum=20 plate is very effective in reducing these.
 
Any=20 ideas?
 
My spring is ferrous, and I would like to get a non = ferrous=20 replacement.
 
PauLC
W1VLF  
Subject: Re: Spring Damping. From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 12:11:36 -0700 Hi Paul, The damping for the AS-1 is via an attachment to the lower side of the boom. The best method is to use magnetic damping. Here's a design by Chris Chapman: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/as1%20damping/index.html Cheers, John At 11:58 AM 7/23/2007, you wrote: >Folks, > >I just finished up a vertical sensor with an AS-1 like suspension. >After looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading about it, I cannot >see any information about the damping of the suspension spring. > >Does any one have one of these? What am I missing because the >spring being used here while allow in for almost 4 sec. period, once >excited rings for a long time. > >It seems that a magnet mounted in the center of the spring, and an >aluminum plate is very effective in reducing these. > >Any ideas? > >My spring is ferrous, and I would like to get a non ferrous replacement. > >PauLC >W1VLF __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Spring Damping. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 15:42:42 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........ writes: > I just finished up a vertical sensor with an AS-1 like suspension. > After looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading about it, I cannot see any > information about the damping of the suspension spring. Hi Paul, You don't try to damp the spring itself, but you do damp the arm. For suggestions see http://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/as1%20damping/index.html It can be an advantage to mount the damping blade close to the mass. This system is very flexible. You just slide the magnet fixture further over the damping blade until you get the correct damping. I have tried 1/16" Al sheet for the blade glued to SS threaded rod with two part acrylic glue. It works OK, but it is not so effective. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........ writes:

I just finished up a  ver= tical  sensor with an AS-1 like suspension.
After looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading about it, I cannot see any=20= information about the damping of the suspension spring.


Hi Paul,

       You don't try to damp the spring itself= , but you do damp the arm. For suggestions see http://jclahr.com/science/psn= /chapman/as1%20damping/index.html
       It can be an advantage to mount the dam= ping blade close to the mass. This system is very flexible. You just slide t= he magnet fixture further over the damping blade until you get the correct d= amping. I have tried 1/16" Al sheet for the blade glued to SS threaded rod w= ith two part acrylic glue. It works OK, but it is not so effective.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: RE: Spring Damping to Chris and John From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:07:56 -0400 Chris, John, I understand about the damping of the arm on the AS-1. Later I put up some pix on my website to illustrate, this. If I depress the arm say 3/4" on my sensor, the arm will return to zero position overshoot about 1/2 cycle and return to rest at zero. However the suspension spring rings, resonates at a rate of a few hertz, imparting its resonance on top of the 4 sec period of the sensor. This is what I need to stop. If the suspension spring on the AS-1 is plucked does it not vibrate at some frequency and impart that noise into the machine?? PaulC -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of ChrisAtUpw@....... Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 3:43 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Spring Damping. In a message dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........ writes: I just finished up a vertical sensor with an AS-1 like suspension. After looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading about it, I cannot see any information about the damping of the suspension spring. Hi Paul, You don't try to damp the spring itself, but you do damp the arm. For suggestions see http://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/as1%20damping/index.html It can be an advantage to mount the damping blade close to the mass. This system is very flexible. You just slide the magnet fixture further over the damping blade until you get the correct damping. I have tried 1/16" Al sheet for the blade glued to SS threaded rod with two part acrylic glue. It works OK, but it is not so effective. Regards, Chris Chapman
Chris,=20 John,
 
I=20 understand about the damping of the arm on the AS-1.
Later=20 I put up some pix on my website to illustrate, this.
 
If I=20 depress the arm say 3/4" on my sensor, the arm will return to zero = position=20 overshoot about 1/2 cycle and return to rest at = zero.
However the suspension spring rings, resonates at a rate of a = few hertz,=20 imparting its resonance on top of the  4 sec period of the sensor.
 
This=20 is what I need to stop.
 
If the=20 suspension spring on the AS-1 is plucked does it not vibrate at = some=20 frequency and impart that noise into the machine??
 
PaulC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 3:43=20 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: Spring=20 Damping.

In a message dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........... writes:

 I just finished up a  vertical  sensor with an = AS-1=20 like suspension.
After looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading = about it, I=20 cannot see any information about the damping of the suspension=20 spring.


Hi=20 Paul,

       You don't try to = damp the=20 spring itself, but you do damp the arm. For suggestions see=20 = http://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/as1%20damping/index.html
 &= nbsp;    =20 It can be an advantage to mount the damping blade close to the mass. = This=20 system is very flexible. You just slide the magnet fixture further = over the=20 damping blade until you get the correct damping. I have tried 1/16" Al = sheet=20 for the blade glued to SS threaded rod with two part acrylic glue. It = works=20 OK, but it is not so effective. =

      =20 Regards,

       Chris = Chapman=20 Subject: Re: Spring Damping to Chris and John From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:47:47 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........ writes: > If I depress the arm say 3/4" on my sensor, the arm will return to zero > position overshoot about 1/2 cycle and return to rest at zero. Hi Paul, The damping need to set so that if you displace the arm by 10 mm, it just swings back through the zero position by ~0.5 mm. > However the suspension spring rings, resonates at a rate of a few hertz, > imparting its resonance on top of the 4 sec period of the sensor. > This is what I need to stop. Maybe increase the spring tension so that it resonates at >10 Hz and set the low pass filter to reject everything above 5 Hz? > If the suspension spring on the AS-1 is plucked does it not vibrate at some > frequency and impart that noise into the machine? Certainly it will resonate if you do that, but are you really planning for >M6 local quakes? I would be surprised if you ever saw significant spring resonance effects. The whole system would need to be shaken at the resonant frequency, or by a seismic signal which has a rise time shorter than this. High frequency movements are severely damped. You can attach tiny cubic NdFeB magnets at points on a spring and mount a copper plate or tube close to them. This is sometimes done for leaf springs. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........ writes:

If I depress the arm say 3/4"=20= on my sensor, the arm will return to zero position overshoot about 1/2 cycle= and return to rest at zero.


Hi Paul,
      
       The damping need to set so that if you=20= displace the arm by 10 mm, it just swings back through the zero position by=20= ~0.5 mm.

However the suspension spring=20= rings, resonates at a rate of a few hertz, imparting its resonance on top of= the  4 sec period of the sensor.
This is what I need to stop.


       Maybe increase the spring tension so t= hat it resonates at >10 Hz and set the low pass filter to reject everythi= ng above 5 Hz?

If the suspension spring on th= e AS-1 is plucked does it not vibrate at some frequency and impart that nois= e into the machine?


       Certainly it will resonate if you do th= at, but are you really planning for >M6 local quakes? I would be surprise= d if you ever saw significant spring resonance effects. The whole system wou= ld need to be shaken at the resonant frequency, or by a seismic signal which= has a rise time shorter than this. High frequency movements are severely da= mped. You can attach tiny cubic NdFeB magnets at points on a spring and moun= t a copper plate or tube close to them. This is sometimes done for leaf spri= ngs.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: RE: Spring Damping to Chris and John From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 19:31:11 -0400 Chris, Maybe I am making too much out of this problem, but I will try the tiny neo's and see what happens. Thanks for giving a push into back into the world of reality. Plucking the spring is really not a realistic situation. PauLC -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of ChrisAtUpw@....... Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 6:48 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Spring Damping to Chris and John In a message dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........ writes: If I depress the arm say 3/4" on my sensor, the arm will return to zero position overshoot about 1/2 cycle and return to rest at zero. Hi Paul, The damping need to set so that if you displace the arm by 10 mm, it just swings back through the zero position by ~0.5 mm. However the suspension spring rings, resonates at a rate of a few hertz, imparting its resonance on top of the 4 sec period of the sensor. This is what I need to stop. Maybe increase the spring tension so that it resonates at >10 Hz and set the low pass filter to reject everything above 5 Hz? If the suspension spring on the AS-1 is plucked does it not vibrate at some frequency and impart that noise into the machine? Certainly it will resonate if you do that, but are you really planning for >M6 local quakes? I would be surprised if you ever saw significant spring resonance effects. The whole system would need to be shaken at the resonant frequency, or by a seismic signal which has a rise time shorter than this. High frequency movements are severely damped. You can attach tiny cubic NdFeB magnets at points on a spring and mount a copper plate or tube close to them. This is sometimes done for leaf springs. Regards, Chris Chapman
Chris,
 
Maybe=20 I am making too much out of this = problem, but I will try=20 the tiny neo's and see what happens.
 
Thanks=20 for giving a push into back into the world of = reality.
Plucking the spring is really not a realistic=20 situation.
 
PauLC
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 6:48=20 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: Spring = Damping to=20 Chris and John

In a message dated 2007/07/23, Paulc@........... writes:

 If I depress the arm say 3/4" on my sensor, the arm will = return=20 to zero position overshoot about 1/2 cycle and return to rest at=20 zero.


Hi=20 Paul,
      =20
       The damping need to set so = that if=20 you displace the arm by 10 mm, it just swings back through the zero = position=20 by ~0.5 mm.

 However the suspension spring rings, resonates at a rate = of a=20 few hertz, imparting its resonance on top of the  4 sec period of = the=20 sensor.
This is what I need to stop.

       Maybe=20 increase the spring tension so that it resonates at >10 Hz and set = the low=20 pass filter to reject everything above 5 Hz?

 If the suspension spring on the AS-1 is plucked does it = not=20 vibrate at some frequency and impart that noise into the=20 machine?

      =20 Certainly it will resonate if you do that, but are you really planning = for=20 >M6 local quakes? I would be surprised if you ever saw significant = spring=20 resonance effects. The whole system would need to be shaken at the = resonant=20 frequency, or by a seismic signal which has a rise time shorter than = this.=20 High frequency movements are severely damped. You can attach tiny = cubic NdFeB=20 magnets at points on a spring and mount a copper plate or tube close = to them.=20 This is sometimes done for leaf springs.=20

      =20 Regards,

       Chris = Chapman=20 Subject: Re: Spring Damping From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:27:39 EDT The discussion of the effects of spring vibration made me look up the following paragraph from the Physics section of the downloaded manual. It seems that vibration has no first order effect on vertical sensor performance if the spring is zero length. Bob LaCoste & Romberg INSTRUCTION MANUAL MODEL G & D GRAVITY METERS _Http://www.LaCosteRomberg.com_ (http://www.LaCosteRomberg.com) "An important feature of the zero length spring suspension is its insensitivity to longitudinal and transverse vibrations (Harrison 1960, LaCoste 1967). Consider the spring to be made of identical masses with segments of weightless zero length spring between the masses. The top end of the spring is attached to A and the bottom to B. Since the spring segments are zero length springs, the forces each spring exerts on the adjacent masses are proportional to the spring length. Therefore, if the masses are equally spaced vertically, the vertical component of force exerted on each mass will be zero regardless of its horizontal position or horizontal motion. Also, the vertical components of force are proportional to the vertical component of spring length. (The vertical component of the force vector remains the same.) Also, the vertical force on A and B will be independent of any horizontal motions." ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
The discussion of the effects of spring vibration made me look up the=20 following paragraph from the Physics section of the downloaded manual. It se= ems=20 that vibration has no first order effect on vertical sensor performance if t= he=20 spring is zero length.
 
Bob
 
LaCoste & Romberg
INSTRUCTION MANUAL
MODEL G & D GRAVITY=20 METERS
Http://www.LaCosteRomberg.com

"An important feature of the zero length spring suspension is=20 its
insensitivity to longitudinal and transverse vibrations=20 (Harrison
1960, LaCoste 1967). Consider the spring to be made of=20 identical
masses with segments of weightless zero length spring between=20 the
masses. The top end of the spring is attached to A and the bottom
= to=20 B. Since the spring segments are zero length springs, the forces
each spr= ing=20 exerts on the adjacent masses are proportional to the
spring length.=20 Therefore, if the masses are equally spaced vertically,
the vertical=20 component of force exerted on each mass will be
zero regardless of its=20 horizontal position or horizontal motion.
Also, the vertical components o= f=20 force are proportional to the
vertical component of spring length. (The=20 vertical component of
the force vector remains the same.) Also, the verti= cal=20 force on A
and B will be independent of any horizontal=20 motions."



Get a sneak peek= of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: Re: Spring Damping. From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 00:56:28 -0700 I understand that no matter what the setup you want the whatever to achive a damping where after relese the object attains an amplitude on the backswing of about 0.1 of the relese height. It would be nice to understand how this translates to Q which is simply the inverse of damping. I have found it best to use as little damping as possible with a geophone that already has internal damping related to construction. especially if you are looking below the F0 point. If you are only looking for first time of arrival you want the greatest sensitivity possible. I get the best pictures when my geophone is damped the least so i do not understand why everyone wants so much damping. But I was told by Mr.Willis Jacobs of the USGS that they wanted a 10:1 damping ratio. Release at 10 and on each half cycle it will be only 10% the previous amplitude. Does anyone know the proper formula to translate swing amplitude to Q or its inverse called damping ? 10:1 = _____Q ???? Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Cianciolo" To: Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 11:58 Subject: Spring Damping. > Folks, > > I just finished up a vertical sensor with an AS-1 like suspension. > After looking at the AS-1 pictures, and reading about it, I cannot see any > information about the damping of the suspension spring. > > Does any one have one of these? What am I missing because the spring being > used here while allow in for almost 4 sec. period, once excited rings for a > long time. > > It seems that a magnet mounted in the center of the spring, and an aluminum > plate is very effective in reducing these. > > Any ideas? > > My spring is ferrous, and I would like to get a non ferrous replacement. > > PauLC > W1VLF > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:12:25 -0700 Hello All; I just ran a Compiled fft routine on a 3GHz Pentium4 machine with 3G ram under WINXP-PRO and it ran slower then on my WIN98SE Presario 5528 with a 75MHz plain old pentium running in MSDOS mode. Now one machine is 40 times faster then the other but there was little difference in run time between the two ?? Does anyone know how to make a MSDOS program run full speed on a Windows XP machine ??? It seems somethings throttling the speed back and i would greatly like to change that. When I get A-Round-Tuit I will boot my WINXP machine with MSDOS and try running the program there but I would really rather use windows. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randall Peters" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 17:04 Subject: Re: Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 > Thanks, Bob. I did eventually realize my failure to mention 'x' to > terminate and 'r' to rerun. > Randall > > Bobhelenmcclure@....... wrote: > >> Hi Randall, I tried out your QuickBasic program using the compiled >> program and running from the source code. Changing the file name is >> not necessary, so long as you enter the complete name. You neglected >> to tell users what keys to use to re-run or terminate the >> program. Cheers, Bob ~~~~~~~~~~Original Message~~~~~~~~~~~Subject: Re: >> Digest from 07/17/2007 00:01:20 >> From: Randall Peters PETERS_RD@.......... >> Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 11:52:05 -0400 Because of the recent interest >> in FFT's, I have posted some files on my webpage at >> http://physics.mercer.edu/hpage/psn/psn.html >> The pdf's should help those of you who have been wondering how the >> Fourier transform works and why the Cooley-Tukey form (Fast version) >> is SO MUCH better than the discrete FT (for which there is much >> needless, repetitive calculations). >> The executable can be downloaded (I promise that it is safe to use) >> and some data files have been posted to the site so that you can run >> test cases. test and test 2 are pure sine signals, one with a period >> of 17 s and the other 1000 s. The 0704 file is a record of the >> Solomon Islands EQ recorded wtih Larry Cochrane's VolksMeter. Before >> you can use the files you must rename your saved version (*.txt) to >> *.dat. This suffix must be typed in along with the filename when you >> are prompted for the input file. >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Coil Wire Sources From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 08:38:11 -0500 I am having a difficult time locating a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil. If someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it. I can find up to 36 gauge, but not 38AGW. Thanks, Jerry
I am having a difficult = time locating a=20 source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a = coil.  If=20 someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it.  =
 
I can find up to 36 gauge, = but not=20 38AGW.
 
Thanks,
Jerry
Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources From: tchannel1@............ Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 07:56:42 -0600 Hi Jerry, Have you tried this site? 38 Gauge - Magnet Wire - 96W038 = http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?&category=3DMW&start=3D20 Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Payton=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:38 AM Subject: Coil Wire Sources I am having a difficult time locating a source(s) for 38AGW = Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil. If someone would send = me a source, I'd sure appreciate it. =20 I can find up to 36 gauge, but not 38AGW. Thanks, Jerry
 
Hi Jerry,  Have you tried this site?
 
 
38 Gauge - Magnet Wire - 96W038  http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?&cate= gory=3DMW&start=3D20
 
Ted
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jerry = Payton=20
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 = 7:38=20 AM
Subject: Coil Wire = Sources

I am having a difficult = time locating=20 a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a = coil.  If=20 someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it.  =
 
I can find up to 36 = gauge, but not=20 38AGW.
 
Thanks,
Jerry
Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Jerry I've bought surplus coated wire spools even finer (48 ga) from HSC electronics. They have a small store in sacramento,ca and san jose, ca (I think). Barry Jerry Payton wrote: I am having a difficult time locating a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil. If someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it. I can find up to 36 gauge, but not 38AGW. Thanks, Jerry
Jerry
 I've bought surplus coated wire spools even finer (48 ga) from HSC electronics. They have a small store in sacramento,ca and san jose, ca (I think).
Barry


Jerry Payton <gpayton880@.......> wrote:
I am having a difficult time locating a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil.  If someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it. 
 
I can find up to 36 gauge, but not 38AGW.
 
Thanks,
Jerry

Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 21:36:44 -0500 Yes, thanks Barry. The HSC Electronics' URL is http://www.halted.com/ . I also was directed to http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?&category=MW&start=20 . Both have the wire. Thanks to all that responded. Regards, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Lotz To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources Jerry I've bought surplus coated wire spools even finer (48 ga) from HSC electronics. They have a small store in sacramento,ca and san jose, ca (I think). Barry Jerry Payton wrote: I am having a difficult time locating a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil. If someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it. I can find up to 36 gauge, but not 38AGW. Thanks, Jerry
Yes, thanks Barry.  The HSC Electronics' URL is  http://www.halted.com/ .  = I also was=20 directed to  http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?&cate= gory=3DMW&start=3D20 . =20 Both have the wire.  Thanks to all that responded.
 
Regards,
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Barry=20 Lotz
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 = 9:24=20 PM
Subject: Re: Coil Wire = Sources

Jerry
 I've bought surplus coated wire spools even finer (48 = ga) from=20 HSC electronics. They have a small store in sacramento,ca and san = jose, ca (I=20 think).
Barry


Jerry Payton <gpayton880@.......>=20 wrote:
I am having a difficult = time=20 locating a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for = winding a=20 coil.  If someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate = it. =20
 
I can find up to 36 = gauge, but not=20 38AGW.
 
Thanks,
Jerry

Subject: Re: Spring Damping. From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:24:50 +1200 Geoffrey wrote: > I understand that no matter what the setup > you want the whatever to achive a damping > where after relese the object attains an > amplitude on the backswing of about 0.1 > of the relese height. > It would be nice to understand how this > translates to Q which is simply the inverse of damping. > I have found it best to use as little damping as possible > with a geophone that already has internal damping > related to construction. especially if you are > looking below the F0 point. > If you are only looking for first time of arrival you want > the greatest sensitivity possible. > I get the best pictures when my geophone is damped > the least so i do not understand why everyone > wants so much damping. But I was told by Mr.Willis Jacobs > of the USGS that they wanted a 10:1 damping ratio. > Release at 10 and on each half cycle it will be > only 10% the previous amplitude. > > Does anyone know the proper formula to > translate swing amplitude to Q or its inverse > called damping ? > > 10:1 = _____Q ???? Hi Geoffrey, A tuned radio frequency circuit and a seismometer have opposite goals, especially if you are interested in the spectrum of the signal per your discussion of FFT techniques. In order for the FFT to have any meaning you need a dataset produced by a broadband sensor with as near as possible a flat frequency response. This is what you get with a critically damped system and is precisely not what you get with a high Q tuned system. I am unfamiliar with WinXP, but on Win98 getting a full screen MS-DOS type window by holding down Alt and pressing Enter while in an MS-DOS command prompt window seems to dispose of much of the Windows overhead. I assume that QuickBasic is a compiled Basic and not an interpreted one. A compiled language usually runs at least ten times faster than an interpreted one. -- regards Mark Robinson ------------- 24 Jul 1952 Democrats choose Adali Stevenson and Alabama Senator John Sparkman to run for the White House. 24 Jul 1982 Anna Pacquin, actress, born. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Spring Damping From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:34:12 EDT > Does anyone know the proper formula to > translate swing amplitude to Q or its inverse > called damping? Yes. See _http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html_ (http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html) Bob ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
> Does anyone know the proper formula to
> translate swing=20 amplitude to Q or its inverse
> called damping?
 
Yes. See
 
http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html=
 
Bob



Get a sneak peek=20= of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: Volcanoes From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:58:36 +0000 Hi all I am wondering how many people on the psn postlist are close to a active volcano. I ask because I have intrest in figuring out how many earthquakes and other types of activie is detect by ameatur seismographs. I am also looking for people intrested in both earthquakes and volcanoes. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Volcanoes From: George Bush ke6pxp@....... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 09:47:59 -0700 Hi J=F3n- I live less than 50Km from the Geysers that is a geothermal area associated with volcanism. There is no active volcano there now, but the obsidian rock in the area is less than 1000 years old. I also live less than 1Km fron the San Andreas fault in Northern California.=20 I detect M3 quakes from the Geysers almost weekly and detect small quakes from faults parallel to the San Andreas a few time a year. I am interested in both earthquakes and volcanoes. At 02:58 PM 7/25/2007 +0000, you wrote: >Hi all > >I am wondering how many people on the psn postlist are close to a active >volcano. I ask because I have intrest in figuring out how many >earthquakes and other types of activie is detect by ameatur >seismographs. I am also looking for people intrested in both earthquakes >and volcanoes. > >Regards. >--=20 >J=F3n Fr=EDmann >http://www.jonfr.com >http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20 >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > George Bush Sea Ranch, CA, USA 38.73775N, 123.48882W __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Noise floor From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 13:33:10 -0400 Hello Folks, I have uploaded to The PSN events page a file called vertical noise floor. This is the Noise floor of my new vertical sensor that has a period of 4 secs. Can someone please download the file with Winquake and do an FFT on the file. What you will see is a signature waveform that seems to be part of the machine I built. There always seems to be a lot of energy at .2 HZ with a roll of toward 1 HZ Does this being a log scale, mean I has some noise peak, at .2 Hz ??? Is this real? or an artifact? Ted TCID sent me a raw file from his machine, and the response is much flatter. My next test is to lock down the coil/magnet sensor and take a reading and see what the noise floor looks like. When I replace the coil with a short circuit across the input of the seismic amplifier, I get what looks like a flat response line. Any ideas comments welcome. PauLC W1VLF __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Volcanoes From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 17:59:02 +0000 Hi George I am wondering if there is any intrest in creating a specal volcano postlist for those how are intrested in volcanoes. So discussions about volcanoes can stay in one place, away from the earthquake discussions. I can setup that type of post list with much problem, even on a specal domain if I want to. The closest hotspring area to where I live is ~85 km away. The second sensor has more hot springs closer to his location then that (Reykjanes, Geysir area and other areas). Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Volcanoes From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:21:06 -0700 George / Jon For those interested in Volcanoes, there is a blog maintained by Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ. Here is the link to subscribe to the list. http://lists.asu.edu/archives/volcano.html You can check out their archives to see what is listed. Bob Hancock __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Coil Wire Sources From: "Stephen Hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 11:32:06 -0700 I just talked via phone to the owner of Alltronics and he does have the coil wire you are looking for. When he had his store in San Jose (now closed) Bob Ogburn, a PSN member, worked for him before moving to Texas. In chatting with the owner, he also mentioned he has super magnets and some small speakers that PSN members might be interested in. Regards, Steve Hammond PSN San Jose, Aptos CA. -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Jerry Payton Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 7:37 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources Yes, thanks Barry. The HSC Electronics' URL is http://www.halted.com/ .. I also was directed to http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi? &category=MW&start=20 . Both have the wire. Thanks to all that responded. Regards, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Barry Lotz To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources Jerry I've bought surplus coated wire spools even finer (48 ga) from HSC electronics. They have a small store in sacramento,ca and san jose, ca (I think). Barry Jerry Payton wrote: I am having a difficult time locating a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil. If someone would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it. I can find up to 36 gauge, but not 38AGW. Thanks, Jerry

I just talked via phone to the = owner of Alltronics and he does have the coil wire you are looking for. When he had his = store in San Jose (now closed) Bob Ogburn, a PSN member, worked for him = before moving to Texas. In chatting with the owner, he also mentioned he has super magnets and some small speakers that PSN members might be interested = in.

Regards, Steve = Hammond PSN San Jose, = Aptos CA.

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Jerry Payton
Sent: = Tuesday, July 24, = 2007 7:37 PM
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: Coil Wire = Sources

 

Yes, thanks Barry.  The HSC Electronics' = URL is  http://www.halted.com/ .  I also was directed to  http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?&cate= gory=3DMW&start=3D20 .  Both have the wire.  Thanks to all that = responded.

 

Regards,

Jerry

----- Original Message = -----

From: Barry Lotz

To:<= /font> psn-l@..............

Sent: Tuesday, July 24, = 2007 9:24 PM

Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources

 

Jerry

 I've bought surplus coated = wire spools even finer (48 ga) from HSC electronics. They have a small store in = sacramento,ca and san jose, ca (I = think).

Barry



Jerry Payton = <gpayton880@.......><= /b> wrote:

I am having a difficult time locating a = source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil.  If someone = would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it.  =

 

I can find up to 36 gauge, but not = 38AGW.

 

Thanks,

Jerry

 

Subject: RE: Volcanoes From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 18:45:29 +0000 Hi Bob I am already using that post list. But it dosen't offers a lot of dissussions about volcanoes and current changes in volcones, that can happen without a lot of notice. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://www.simnet.is/jonfr500/earthquake/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Noise floor From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 22:28:56 -0700 Hello Paul; At about 0.2 Hz is what I understand to be natural microseismic waves relating to ocean waves striking the shores. I have noticed a quietness at the fundamental freq of the sensor. Like, my geophone is about 1Hz and the noise seems quietest at 1Hz. If the electronics is poorly built by this I mean the components are not proper, you can get peaks in your filters profile that will show up as increased noise at that freq. If your electronics is good enough you can dummy load the input and get a flat line on the output of your electronics. I have never been able to acieve this level of quiet. Noise is interesting because youd think if it were truly random it would be self canceling. The narrower the bandwidth the less the noise. The colder the less the noise. If there exists a specialty science of studing only noise Id like someone to tell me what it is. The best way to see earthquakes is to simply limit the bandwidth then amplify your sensors signals till you see the noise. These EQ waves seem to ride just above the "grass". Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Cianciolo" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 10:33 Subject: Noise floor > Hello Folks, > > I have uploaded to The PSN events page a file called vertical noise floor. > > This is the Noise floor of my new vertical sensor that has a period of 4 > secs. > > Can someone please download the file with Winquake and do an FFT on the > file. > > What you will see is a signature waveform that seems to be part of the > machine I built. > There always seems to be a lot of energy at .2 HZ with a roll of toward 1 HZ > > Does this being a log scale, mean I has some noise peak, at .2 Hz ??? > Is this real? or an artifact? > > Ted TCID sent me a raw file from his machine, and the response is much > flatter. > > My next test is to lock down the coil/magnet sensor and take a reading and > see what the noise floor looks like. > > When I replace the coil with a short circuit across the input of the seismic > amplifier, I get what looks like a flat response line. > > Any ideas comments welcome. > > PauLC > W1VLF > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Spring Damping From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:02:00 -0700 Hello Bob & PSN; Im not so sure this stuff is correct because its my understanding that Q and Damping are simply inverses of each other just like Period and Frequency. I was unable to get the inverse result simply by alternately clicking the buttons using the same input values. Like Q = 1 then damping = 1 Like Q = 0.5 then Damping = 2 Like Q = 2 then damping = 0.5 ??? Also, Whats the proper symbol for damping ? My level of math is only high school to first year college. My brain has most probably been damaged by all those nut house drugs the Government has forced down my throat with coercion and duress. Im just hoping to easily get an answer that makes sense to me here. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 20:34 Subject: Re: Spring Damping >> Does anyone know the proper formula to >> translate swing amplitude to Q or its inverse >> called damping? > > Yes. See > > _http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html_ > (http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html) > > Bob > > > > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 23:05:03 -0700 Wow, that sounds like the wire that might be used in XBT probes and wire guided whatevers. XBT = expendeble bathythermograph probes. I have never seen wire that fine before. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Lotz" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 19:24 Subject: Re: Coil Wire Sources > Jerry > I've bought surplus coated wire spools even finer (48 ga) from HSC electronics. They have a small store in sacramento,ca and san > jose, ca (I think). > Barry > > > Jerry Payton wrote: > I am having a difficult time locating a source(s) for 38AGW Polyurethane coated Cu wire for winding a coil. If someone > would send me a source, I'd sure appreciate it. > > I can find up to 36 gauge, but not 38AGW. > > Thanks, > Jerry > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Volcanoes From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 05:25:53 -0700 (PDT) You might also look at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~volcano/ and http://www.volcano.si.edu/gvp/index.htm for a couple interesting sites Barry Bob Hancock wrote: George / Jon For those interested in Volcanoes, there is a blog maintained by Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ. Here is the link to subscribe to the list. http://lists.asu.edu/archives/volcano.html You can check out their archives to see what is listed. Bob Hancock __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)
You might also look at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~volcano/  and 
http://www.volcano.si.edu/gvp/index.htm
 for a couple interesting sites
Barry

Bob Hancock <carpediem1@.........> wrote:
George / Jon

For those interested in Volcanoes, there is a blog maintained by Arizona
State University, Tempe, AZ. Here is the link to subscribe to the list.

http://lists.asu.edu/archives/volcano.html

You can check out their archives to see what is listed.

Bob Hancock



__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with
the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.

Subject: Re: Spring Damping From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 05:44:14 -0700 (PDT) I think it's z . Shows up as lower case Z in Word symbol font. My greek is rusty. Barry Geoffrey wrote: Hello Bob & PSN; Im not so sure this stuff is correct because its my understanding that Q and Damping are simply inverses of each other just like Period and Frequency. I was unable to get the inverse result simply by alternately clicking the buttons using the same input values. Like Q = 1 then damping = 1 Like Q = 0.5 then Damping = 2 Like Q = 2 then damping = 0.5 ??? Also, Whats the proper symbol for damping ? My level of math is only high school to first year college. My brain has most probably been damaged by all those nut house drugs the Government has forced down my throat with coercion and duress. Im just hoping to easily get an answer that makes sense to me here. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 20:34 Subject: Re: Spring Damping >> Does anyone know the proper formula to >> translate swing amplitude to Q or its inverse >> called damping? > > Yes. See > > _http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html_ > (http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html) > > Bob > > > > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)
I think it's z . Shows up as lower case Z in Word symbol font. My greek is rusty.
Barry
 
 
Geoffrey <gmvoeth@...........> wrote:
Hello Bob & PSN;

Im not so sure this stuff is correct because
its my understanding that Q and Damping
are simply inverses of each other just like
Period and Frequency. I was unable to
get the inverse result simply by
alternately clicking the buttons
using the same input values.

Like Q = 1 then damping = 1
Like Q = 0.5 then Damping = 2
Like Q = 2 then damping = 0.5
???
Also, Whats the proper symbol for damping ?

My level of math is only high school
to first year college.

My brain has most probably been damaged
by all those nut house drugs the Government
has forced down my throat with coercion
and duress.

Im just hoping to easily get an answer that makes sense to me here.

Regards;
geoff

----- Original Message -----
From:
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 20:34
Subject: Re: Spring Damping


>> Does anyone know the proper formula to
>> translate swing amplitude to Q or its inverse
>> called damping?
>
> Yes. See
>
> _http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html_
> (http://jclahr.com/science/math/calculators/scientific_calculator.html)
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
> http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
>
__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@SEISMICNET.COM with
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Subject: "P" ky "Slinky" From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:51:58 -0600 Hi Folks, In the past I have asked the group questions about various = designs. I have made several sensors, some of no value and some which = work well for me in this location. We all learn from doing. I really = like the simplicity of the AS-1, but the cost keep me from purchasing = one, and started my efforts to make one from items I could get locally. = I also wanted to get kids involved in a project which would not require = a machine shop. My Grandkids in Alaska enjoyed their project for a=20 science class. One thing I could not do, was to build the Amp/Filter, I did try and got = the board working by not good enough. I solved that Big issue by purchasing Larry's board, which worked great. I think it was the sixth sensor I dubbed "P" ky-"Slinky" The idea = was to hang a long spring from the ceiling 7' overall. On the end of = the spring a magnet moving in and out of a coil. Add a damper, and = enclose it. A little like a very long geophone. I did a prototype and it worked. So I built one for real, I started = using 7' which included the entire unit. I later changed it to = 5'...........I thing the period is about 2.2 seconds. I made a few = modification and it has been trouble free and recording earthquakes from = all over the world, and in greater numbers than my Lehman. Obviously = not with all the phases, one would expect with a longer period sensor. The spring, perhaps the one at the bottom of the list of appropriate = choices, is working just fine. I see no temperature noise, although it = must be there, and since the spring is in a tube I don't get air = currents. The only issue I had with the spring is that it stretched = about one inch over one month, and now has stopped. I did not keep track of the cost, but I think it was maybe $50 - $75 = including everything for the sensor. For a full station one would need = all the other things, like the Amp/Filter, AD converter, cables Software = and an old computer, etc. I am now operating this unit and posting the recordings as TCIDzs as = z-vertical s-slinky. At night time the noise level is very low, during = the day the noise level is high, due to road construction. On the week = end the noise level is low. http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 I have posted some picture = here. Just click on the album call "5' Slinky" and you can see 9 pictures, I hope. Notice one shows the tube 7' tall = and one 5' tall, after I modified it. This is an inexpressive unit, using simple materials, little machine = work, fun..........and I am please with its performance. Email me if you want to make one, and I will give you details. I can = sent or post .gif images of its recordings as well. It just a fun and easy project. tchannel1@............ Ted
Hi Folks,   In the past I = have asked the=20 group questions about various designs.  I have made several = sensors, some=20 of no value and some which work well for me in this = location.   We all=20 learn from doing.  I really like the simplicity of the AS-1, but = the cost=20 keep me from purchasing one, and started my efforts to make one from = items I=20 could get locally.   I also wanted to get kids involved in a = project=20 which would not require a machine shop.   My Grandkids in = Alaska=20 enjoyed their project for a
science class.
 
One thing I could not do, was to build = the=20 Amp/Filter, I did try and got the board working by not good = enough.
I solved that Big issue by purchasing = Larry's=20 board, which worked great.
 
I think it was the sixth sensor I=20 dubbed   "P" ky-"Slinky"   The idea was to hang a = long=20 spring from the ceiling 7' overall.  On the end of the spring a = magnet=20 moving in and out of a coil.   Add a damper, and enclose=20 it.
A little like a very long = geophone.
 
I did a prototype and it worked.  = So I built=20 one for real,  I started using 7'  which included the entire=20 unit.  I later changed it to 5'...........I thing the period is = about 2.2=20 seconds.  I made a few modification and it has been trouble free = and=20 recording earthquakes from all over the world, and in greater numbers = than my=20 Lehman.   Obviously not with all the phases, one would expect = with a=20 longer period sensor.
 
The spring, perhaps the one at the = bottom of the=20 list of appropriate choices, is working just fine.   I see no=20 temperature noise, although it must be there, and since the spring is in = a tube=20 I don't get air currents.   The only issue I had with the = spring is=20 that it stretched about one inch over one month, and now has=20 stopped.
 
I did not keep track of the cost, but I = think it=20 was maybe $50 - $75 including everything for the sensor.   For = a full=20 station one would need all the other things, like the Amp/Filter, AD = converter,=20 cables Software and an old computer, etc.
 
I am now operating this unit and = posting the=20 recordings as TCIDzs  as z-vertical s-slinky.   At night = time the=20 noise level is very low, during the day the noise level is high, due to = road=20 construction.  On the week end the noise level is low.
 
 
http://picasaweb.google.c= om/tchannel33  =20 I have posted some picture here.  Just click on the album call "5'=20 Slinky"
and you can see 9 pictures,  I = hope. =20 Notice one shows the tube 7' tall and one 5' tall, after I modified=20 it.
 
This is an inexpressive unit, using = simple=20 materials, little machine work, fun..........and I am please with its=20 performance.
Email me if you want to make one,  = and I will=20 give you details.  I can sent or post .gif images of its recordings = as=20 well.
 
It just a fun and easy=20 project.     tchannel1@............<= /DIV>
 
Ted
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:36:51 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes: > http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 I have posted some picture here. > Just click on the album call "5' Slinky" and you can see 9 pictures, I hope. > Hi Ted, The photos are OK , but the diagram is unreadable. It won't even print out. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes:

http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33   I= have posted some picture here.  Just click on the album call "5' Slink= y" and you can see 9 pictures,  I hope.


Hi Ted,

       The photos are OK , but the diagram is=20= unreadable. It won't even print out.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:38:44 -0700 Far Out Man; Verticals are harder to make than horizontals. P = 2 Pi sqr( l / 386) l = 386((P/2Pi)^2) This tells me your spring probably hangs one foot without any weight and five feet with the weight. Does this sound right ? I wonder if you can use levitation to set your own period. It would be like putting most of the weight on the spring then using magnetic or other levitation to reduce the gravitational constant or changing electronically the spring constant. If you put your hand under the mass which is suspended on the spring and levitate it a couple mm then you most possibly could give it near any free period youd like to. Not sure about this but it might be interesting for someone with the resources to try. Regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:43:47 -0700 If you right click and save the image you can then print it out from your hard drive. regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 09:36 Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" > In a message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes: > >> http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 I have posted some picture here. >> Just click on the album call "5' Slinky" and you can see 9 pictures, I hope. >> > > Hi Ted, > > The photos are OK , but the diagram is unreadable. It won't even print > out. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:43:57 -0700 Hi Ted, Nice design! How do you damp out horizontal, swinging motion of the slinky system? What's the resonant period of this motion? Cheers, John At 08:51 AM 7/26/2007, you wrote: >Hi Folks, In the past I have asked the group questions about >various designs. I have made several sensors, some of no value and >some which work well for me in this location. We all learn from >doing. I really like the simplicity of the AS-1, but the cost keep >me from purchasing one, and started my efforts to make one from >items I could get locally. I also wanted to get kids involved in a >project which would not require a machine shop. My Grandkids in >Alaska enjoyed their project for a >science class. > >One thing I could not do, was to build the Amp/Filter, I did try and >got the board working by not good enough. >I solved that Big issue by purchasing Larry's board, which worked great. > >I think it was the sixth sensor I dubbed "P" ky-"Slinky" The >idea was to hang a long spring from the ceiling 7' overall. On the >end of the spring a magnet moving in and out of a coil. Add a >damper, and enclose it. >A little like a very long geophone. > >I did a prototype and it worked. So I built one for real, I >started using 7' which included the entire unit. I later changed >it to 5'...........I thing the period is about 2.2 seconds. I made >a few modification and it has been trouble free and recording >earthquakes from all over the world, and in greater numbers than my >Lehman. Obviously not with all the phases, one would expect with a >longer period sensor. > >The spring, perhaps the one at the bottom of the list of appropriate >choices, is working just fine. I see no temperature noise, >although it must be there, and since the spring is in a tube I don't >get air currents. The only issue I had with the spring is that it >stretched about one inch over one month, and now has stopped. > >I did not keep track of the cost, but I think it was maybe $50 - $75 >including everything for the sensor. For a full station one would >need all the other things, like the Amp/Filter, AD converter, cables >Software and an old computer, etc. > >I am now operating this unit and posting the recordings as >TCIDzs as z-vertical s-slinky. At night time the noise level is >very low, during the day the noise level is high, due to road >construction. On the week end the noise level is low. > > >http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 >I have posted some picture here. Just click on the album call "5' Slinky" >and you can see 9 pictures, I hope. Notice one shows the tube 7' >tall and one 5' tall, after I modified it. > >This is an inexpressive unit, using simple materials, little machine >work, fun..........and I am please with its performance. >Email me if you want to make one, and I will give you details. I >can sent or post .gif images of its recordings as well. > >It just a fun and easy >project. tchannel1@............ > >Ted > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" Feint image From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 13:46:38 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/26, gmvoeth@........... writes: > If you right click and save the image you can then print it out from your > hard drive. Hi Geoff, This should work, but it does not. The original image is too feint. I suspect that it was a pencil drawing. Regards, Chris In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/26, gmvoeth@........... writes:

If you right click and save the= image you can then print it out from your
hard drive.


Hi Geoff,

       This should work, but it does not. The=20= original image is too feint. I suspect that it was a pencil drawing.

       Regards,

       Chris Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" Feint image "Faint" From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 11:54:19 -0700 Dont say p-aint.exe your mother will faint your father will fall in a bucket of paint. The best I can do with PAINT is to first save the image as a 16 color BMP file then go into the attributes and make the paint image black and white. Otherwise you need a utility like graphics workshop pro from Alchemy Mindworks to dither the image to black and white. You need to be able to select the black level etc but paint is terrible at that or so it seems. I am not pushing GWS3 but it seems to do quite well once you learn how to use it. There is most probably a freeware converter out there but the capitalistic internet mucks the searches up and makes them hard to find. I printed it out and the gray image is quite readable to me but i think you need to encourage people in the future to use GIF instead of JPG for line art stuff. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:46 Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" Feint image > In a message dated 2007/07/26, gmvoeth@........... writes: > >> If you right click and save the image you can then print it out from your >> hard drive. > > Hi Geoff, > > This should work, but it does not. The original image is too feint. I > suspect that it was a pencil drawing. > > Regards, > > Chris > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 12:57:02 -0600 Hi Folks, Sorry about the drawing I will repost it, including the left = hand side which got cut off...I will also try to clean it up a bit. = And more pictures. This is just an idea sketch. We all learn things which are undeniable truths.....One for me is " I = must always make something three times to get it right" Maybe that's = were they get "the third times a charm" Anyhow, I would like to make another, so if someone is interested in = this concept, let me know and maybe I can help with some of the parts. = If someone has limited tools etc. Paul C. suggested I use two ring magnets, one entering the top of the = coil, and the other exiting the bottom of the coil. I started with one magnet 1/2 (deep inside the coil), but I did not like = the results. I then moved the magnet to the top of the coil, just = entering, that worked better. I then added another magnet, two = together, 1 and 1/2 magnets inside the top of the coil. This worked = well. To try Paul's idea, I would just need to open it up and move = the spacing nuts and magnets. To many details for this email, but its basically simple. A 12" brass = threaded rod hangs inside the two tees, on which are brass spacing nuts, = and three ring magnets. Two for the coil and one for the damper. Another thing I would maybe do different is to use the 3" black ABS? = pipe and tees, as they are thicker wall and straighter. With the rod+magnets+nuts there was no more room for a mass. I tried = addition mass and it pulled the spring too long. I wanted to limit the = total height to 7', but cut it down to 5'....I think at 7' the period = was 2.4, and at 5' it was 2.2? Thanks, Ted So give me a little time and check the site = again..........http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ChrisAtUpw@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:36 AM Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" In a message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes: http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 I have posted some picture = here. Just click on the album call "5' Slinky" and you can see 9 = pictures, I hope.=20 Hi Ted, The photos are OK , but the diagram is unreadable. It won't = even print out. Regards, Chris Chapman
Hi Folks,  Sorry about the drawing = I will=20 repost it,  including the left hand side which got cut off...I will = also=20 try to clean it up a bit.    And  more = pictures.  =20 This is just an idea sketch.
 
We all learn things which are = undeniable=20 truths.....One for me is " I must always make something three times to = get it=20 right"   Maybe that's were they get "the third times a=20 charm"
 
Anyhow,  I would like to = make another,=20  so if someone is interested in this concept, let me know and maybe = I can=20 help with some of the parts.  If someone has limited tools=20 etc.
 
Paul C. suggested I use two ring = magnets, one=20 entering the top of the coil, and the other exiting the bottom of the=20 coil.
I started with one magnet 1/2 (deep = inside the=20 coil), but I did not like the results.  I then moved the magnet to = the top=20 of the coil, just entering, that worked better.   I then added = another=20 magnet, two together,  1 and 1/2 magnets inside the top of the=20 coil.   This worked well.    To try Paul's = idea, =20 I would just need to open it up and move the spacing nuts and=20 magnets.
 
To many details for this email, but its = basically=20 simple.   A 12" brass threaded rod hangs inside the two tees, = on which=20 are brass spacing nuts, and three ring magnets.  Two for the coil = and one=20 for the damper.
 
Another thing I would maybe do = different is to use=20 the 3" black ABS?  pipe and tees, as they are thicker wall and = straighter.
 
With the rod+magnets+nuts there was no = more room=20 for a mass.  I tried addition mass and it pulled the spring too = long. =20 I wanted to limit the total height to 7', but cut it down to 5'....I = think at 7'=20 the period was 2.4, and at 5' it was 2.2?
 
Thanks, Ted     So = give me a=20 little time and check the site=20 again..........http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33
 
 
----- Original Message -----
 
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 = 10:36=20 AM
Subject: Re: "P" ky = "Slinky"

In a=20 message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............=20 writes:

http://picasaweb.google.c= om/tchannel33  =20 I have posted some picture here.  Just click on the album call = "5'=20 Slinky" and you can see 9 pictures,  I hope.

Hi=20 Ted,

       The photos are OK , = but the=20 diagram is unreadable. It won't even print=20 out.

      =20 Regards,

       Chris = Chapman=20 Subject: Sketch From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 14:37:36 -0600 Hi All, I tried two more times to upload the sketch picture, with no = luck.....However just email me and I will send it as an attachment. Ted
Hi All, I tried two more times to = upload the sketch=20 picture, with no luck.....However just email me and I will send it as an = attachment.
 
Ted
Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 16:42:21 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes: > With the rod+magnets+nuts there was no more room for a mass. I tried > addition mass and it pulled the spring too long. I wanted to limit the total > height to 7', but cut it down to 5'....I think at 7' the period was 2.4, and at > 5' it was 2.2? Hi Ted, So why not chop a few turns off the spring? ! Maybe make two, with half length springs? > Paul C. suggested I use two ring magnets, one entering the top of the coil, > and the other exiting the bottom of the coil. > I started with one magnet 1/2 (deep inside the coil), but I did not like the > results. This would give ~zero output at the centre of the coil. I then moved the magnet to the top of the coil, just entering, that worked better. I > then added another magnet, two together, 1 and 1/2 magnets inside the top > of the coil. This worked well. To try Paul's idea, I would just need to open > it up and move the spacing nuts and magnets. You would probably need the magnets mounted in opposition, but this arrangement should reduce environmental magnetic forces on the seismometer. For the sensor you would probably do to better to make an analogue if a LVDT. Wind two coils end to end and connect them in opposition. Then place the magnet(s) in the centre. The output can be made nearly independent of the vertical position over the length of the magnet(s) / length of the coils, whichever is shorter. You could make an anti rotation, anti pendulum swing damper with two pairs of bar magnets in a cross inside a copper tube, or four copper plates. You could also try square Al tube, or bent sheet? You could probably adjust this to supply the vertical damping as well? You might find that about a 2 second period is optimal? This should bring in the P waves nicely, but reduce thermal and microseism disturbances. Have you tried putting thermal insulation around the tube? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes:

With the rod+magnets+nuts there= was no more room for a mass.  I tried addition mass and it pulled the=20= spring too long.  I wanted to limit the total height to 7', but cut it=20= down to 5'....I think at 7' the period was 2.4, and at 5' it was 2.2?=

Hi Ted,

       So why not chop a few turns off the spr= ing? ! Maybe make two, with half length springs?

Paul C. suggested I use two rin= g magnets, one entering the top of the coil, and the other exiting the botto= m of the coil.
I started with one magnet 1/2 (deep inside the coil), but I did not like th= e results. 


       This would give ~zero output at the ce= ntre of the coil.
      
I then moved the magnet to the top of the coil, just entering, that worked b= etter.  I
then added another magnet, two= together, 1 and 1/2 magnets inside the top of the coil. This worked well. T= o try Paul's idea, I would just need to open it up and move the spacing nuts= and magnets.


       You would probably need the magnets mou= nted in opposition, but this arrangement should reduce environmental magneti= c forces on the seismometer.

             For= the sensor you would probably do to better to make an analogue if a LVDT. W= ind two coils end to end and connect them in opposition. Then place the magn= et(s) in the centre. The output can be made nearly independent of the vertic= al position over the length of the magnet(s) / length of the coils, whicheve= r is shorter.

       You could make an anti rotation, anti p= endulum swing damper with two pairs of bar magnets in a cross inside a coppe= r tube, or four copper plates. You could also try square Al tube, or bent sh= eet? You could probably adjust this to supply the vertical damping as well?<= BR>
       You might find that about a 2 second pe= riod is optimal? This should bring in the P waves nicely, but reduce thermal= and microseism disturbances. Have you tried putting thermal insulation arou= nd the tube?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
 Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:42:56 -0600 Hi Chris, =20 >So why not chop a few turns off the spring? ! Maybe make two, with half = length springs?...........I could have, but gathering the loops aloud me = to add and subtract to adj the length. >Have you tried putting thermal insulation around the tube? ..........I = could, but the room is temperature stable, so I have not. Thanks, Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ChrisAtUpw@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 2:42 PM Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" In a message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes: With the rod+magnets+nuts there was no more room for a mass. I = tried addition mass and it pulled the spring too long. I wanted to = limit the total height to 7', but cut it down to 5'....I think at 7' the = period was 2.4, and at 5' it was 2.2? Hi Ted, So why not chop a few turns off the spring? ! Maybe make two, = with half length springs? Paul C. suggested I use two ring magnets, one entering the top of = the coil, and the other exiting the bottom of the coil. I started with one magnet 1/2 (deep inside the coil), but I did not = like the results. =20 This would give ~zero output at the centre of the coil. =20 I then moved the magnet to the top of the coil, just entering, that = worked better. I=20 then added another magnet, two together, 1 and 1/2 magnets inside = the top of the coil. This worked well. To try Paul's idea, I would just = need to open it up and move the spacing nuts and magnets. You would probably need the magnets mounted in opposition, but = this arrangement should reduce environmental magnetic forces on the = seismometer.=20 For the sensor you would probably do to better to make an = analogue if a LVDT. Wind two coils end to end and connect them in = opposition. Then place the magnet(s) in the centre. The output can be = made nearly independent of the vertical position over the length of the = magnet(s) / length of the coils, whichever is shorter. You could make an anti rotation, anti pendulum swing damper = with two pairs of bar magnets in a cross inside a copper tube, or four = copper plates. You could also try square Al tube, or bent sheet? You = could probably adjust this to supply the vertical damping as well? You might find that about a 2 second period is optimal? This = should bring in the P waves nicely, but reduce thermal and microseism = disturbances. Have you tried putting thermal insulation around the tube? Regards, Chris Chapman
Hi Chris, 
>So why not chop a few turns off the = spring? !=20 Maybe make two, with half length springs?...........I could have, but = gathering=20 the loops aloud me to add and subtract to adj the length.
 
 
>Have you tried putting thermal insulation around the=20 tube?  ..........I could, but the room is temperature stable, = so I=20 have not.
 
Thanks, Ted
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 = 2:42=20 PM
Subject: Re: "P" ky = "Slinky"

In a=20 message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............=20 writes:

With the rod+magnets+nuts there was no more room for a=20 mass.  I tried addition mass and it pulled the spring too = long.  I=20 wanted to limit the total height to 7', but cut it down to 5'....I = think at=20 7' the period was 2.4, and at 5' it was 2.2?

Hi=20 Ted,

       So why not chop a few = turns=20 off the spring? ! Maybe make two, with half length springs?

Paul C. suggested I use two ring magnets, one entering = the top=20 of the coil, and the other exiting the bottom of the = coil.
I started with = one magnet 1/2=20 (deep inside the coil), but I did not like the results.  =

       This=20 would give ~zero output at the centre of the=20 coil.
      
I then moved the = magnet to=20 the top of the coil, just entering, that worked better.  I =
then added another magnet, two together, 1 and 1/2 = magnets=20 inside the top of the coil. This worked well. To try Paul's idea, I = would=20 just need to open it up and move the spacing nuts and=20 magnets.

       You = would=20 probably need the magnets mounted in opposition, but this arrangement = should=20 reduce environmental magnetic forces on the seismometer.=20 =

           = ; =20 For the sensor you would probably do to better to make an analogue if = a LVDT.=20 Wind two coils end to end and connect them in opposition. Then place = the=20 magnet(s) in the centre. The output can be made nearly independent of = the=20 vertical position over the length of the magnet(s) / length of the = coils,=20 whichever is shorter.

       You = could=20 make an anti rotation, anti pendulum swing damper with two pairs of = bar=20 magnets in a cross inside a copper tube, or four copper plates. You = could also=20 try square Al tube, or bent sheet? You could probably adjust this to = supply=20 the vertical damping as = well?

       You=20 might find that about a 2 second period is optimal? This should bring = in the P=20 waves nicely, but reduce thermal and microseism disturbances. Have you = tried=20 putting thermal insulation around the=20 tube?

      =20 Regards,

       Chris=20 Chapman
 Subject: RE: "P" ky "Slinky" From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 15:30:43 -0700 Ted - Interesting, very interesting - from a non-engineer, how do you plan to compensate for creep and eventual deformation in the metal slinky, and how close is your temperature control, plus or minus what number? Bob

Ted = –

 

Interesting, very interesting = – from a non-engineer, how do you plan to compensate for creep and eventual deformation in the metal slinky, and how close is your temperature = control, plus or minus what number?

 

Bob

 

Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 17:39:37 -0600 Hi Bob, The spring did stretch over about a month. 3/4"? Like a music = string.......... It may have stopped now, I can eyeball it thru the = window, and it seem to now be stable. The room ranges from about 65 to 75? A room in my finished basement, and I see no temperature effect. I = places a heater in the room to see if I could, but saw nothing change.=20 I don't have a lot of weight on the spring, so I am hoping it does not = deform. much.. Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bob Hancock=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 4:30 PM Subject: RE: "P" ky "Slinky" Ted - =20 Interesting, very interesting - from a non-engineer, how do you plan = to compensate for creep and eventual deformation in the metal slinky, = and how close is your temperature control, plus or minus what number? =20 Bob =20
Hi Bob,  The spring did stretch = over about a=20 month. 3/4"?  Like a music string.......... It may have = stopped=20 now, I can eyeball it thru the window, and it seem to now be=20 stable.
 
  The room ranges from about 65 to = 75?
A room in my finished basement, = and I see no=20 temperature effect.   I places a heater in the room to see if = I could,=20 but saw nothing change. 
 
  I don't have a lot of weight on = the spring,=20 so I am hoping it does not deform. much..
 
Ted
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bob=20 Hancock
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 = 4:30=20 PM
Subject: RE: "P" ky = "Slinky"

Ted=20 =96

 

Interesting, very=20 interesting =96 from a non-engineer, how do you plan to compensate for = creep and=20 eventual deformation in the metal slinky, and how close is your = temperature=20 control, plus or minus what number?

 

Bob

 

Subject: Re: Spring damping From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2007 21:11:23 EDT I do not know if there is a standard symbol for damping, but "Seismic Sensors and their Calibration" by Dr. Erhard Wielandt calls it "h". The relation between Q and h is Q=0.5/h. For critical damping, h=1.0 and Q=0.5. If the sensor Q is set to 0.707, the damping is also 0.707, and the sensor response is identical to a 2nd order Butterworth filter whose corner frequency is the natural frequency of the pendulum. The corresponding overshoot is 4.33 per cent. This is where I would like to keep my sensors, even though my WQFilter.exe" utility can compensate the data for almost any amount of under-or-over damping. Bob Geoffrey wrote: Hello Bob & PSN; Im not so sure this stuff is correct because its my understanding that Q and Damping are simply inverses of each other just like Period and Frequency. I was unable to get the inverse result simply by alternately clicking the buttons using the same input values. Like Q = 1 then damping = 1 Like Q = 0.5 then Damping = 2 Like Q = 2 then damping = 0.5 ??? Also, Whats the proper symbol for damping? ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
 I do not know if there is a standard symbol for damping, but "Sei= smic=20 Sensors and their Calibration" by Dr. Erhard Wielandt calls it "h". The rela= tion=20 between Q and h is Q=3D0.5/h. For critical damping, h=3D1.0 and Q=3D0.5.
 
  If the sensor Q is set to 0.707, the damping is also 0.707,= and=20 the sensor response is identical to a 2nd order Butterworth filter whose cor= ner=20 frequency is the natural frequency of the pendulum. The corresponding oversh= oot=20 is 4.33 per cent. This is where I would like to keep my sensors, even=20 though my WQFilter.exe" utility can compensate the data for almost any amoun= t of=20 under-or-over damping.
 
Bob
 
  Geoffrey  wrote:
  Hello Bob & PSN;
 
Im not so sure this stuff is correct because
its my understanding th= at Q=20 and Damping
are simply inverses of each other just like
Period and=20 Frequency. I was unable to
get the inverse result simply by
alternatel= y=20 clicking the buttons
using the same input values.
 
Like Q =3D 1 then damping =3D 1
Like Q =3D 0.5 then Damping =3D 2Like Q =3D 2=20 then damping =3D 0.5
???
Also, Whats the proper symbol for=20 damping?



Get= a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 00:50:37 EDT In a message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes: > So why not chop a few turns off the spring? ! Maybe make two, with half > length springs?...........I could have, but gathering the loops aloud me to add > and subtract to adj the length. Hi Ted, Trim the extension by adding mass, eg large diameter washers? > >Have you tried putting thermal insulation around the tube? ..........I > could, but the room is temperature stable, so I have not. I suggest that you try it sometime? Maybe just wrap / hang a rug or a blanket around it for a rough test? It is likely to significantly reduce the noise. Does the increased daytime noise on the vertical correlate in time with the noise levels on the Lehman? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes:


So why not chop a few turns off= the spring? ! Maybe make two, with half length springs?...........I could h= ave, but gathering the loops aloud me to add and subtract to adj the length.=


Hi Ted,

       Trim the extension by adding mass, eg l= arge diameter washers?

>Have you tried putting the= rmal insulation around the tube?  ..........I could, but the room is te= mperature stable, so I have not.


       I suggest that you try it sometime? May= be just wrap / hang a rug or a blanket around it for a rough test?
       It is likely to significantly reduce th= e noise.
       Does the increased daytime noise on the= vertical correlate in time with the noise levels on the Lehman?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" From: tchannel1@............ Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:18:41 -0600 Hi Chris, =20 >Does the increased daytime noise on the vertical correlate in time with = the noise levels on the Lehman? They are in two different location 7 miles apart. BUT =20 1. Night time both very quiet. 2. Weekends both very quiet. 3. Work day M-F 8-5 ..........Lehman not near road construction QUIET = with very little noise 4. .. .. .. .. .. Vertical "Slinky" 1.5 miles = to road construction very noisy. And as the work get closer to our = house the noise gets worse. I will insulate the tower, to see what happens. Thanks, Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ChrisAtUpw@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 10:50 PM Subject: Re: "P" ky "Slinky" In a message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............ writes: So why not chop a few turns off the spring? ! Maybe make two, with = half length springs?...........I could have, but gathering the loops = aloud me to add and subtract to adj the length. Hi Ted, Trim the extension by adding mass, eg large diameter washers? >Have you tried putting thermal insulation around the tube? = ...........I could, but the room is temperature stable, so I have not. I suggest that you try it sometime? Maybe just wrap / hang a = rug or a blanket around it for a rough test? It is likely to significantly reduce the noise.=20 Does the increased daytime noise on the vertical correlate in = time with the noise levels on the Lehman? Regards, Chris Chapman
Hi Chris,  
 
>Does the increased daytime noise on = the=20 vertical correlate in time with the noise levels on the = Lehman?
 
They are in two different = location 7 miles=20 apart.  BUT 
1.  Night time both very = quiet.
2.  Weekends both very = quiet.
3.  Work day M-F 8-5 = ...........Lehman=20 not near road construction QUIET with very little = noise
4.   =20 ...       ..   .. .. =20 ...            = ;=20 Vertical "Slinky"  1.5 miles to road construction very = noisy.  =20 And as the work get closer to our house the noise gets = worse.
 
I will insulate the tower, to see what=20 happens.
 
Thanks, Ted
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 = 10:50=20 PM
Subject: Re: "P" ky = "Slinky"

In a=20 message dated 2007/07/26, tchannel1@............=20 writes:


So why not chop a few turns off the spring? ! Maybe make = two,=20 with half length springs?...........I could have, but gathering the = loops=20 aloud me to add and subtract to adj the length.

Hi=20 Ted,

       Trim the extension by = adding=20 mass, eg large diameter washers?

>Have you tried putting thermal insulation around the = tube?  ..........I could, but the room is temperature stable, = so I have=20 not.

       I = suggest that=20 you try it sometime? Maybe just wrap / hang a rug or a blanket around = it for a=20 rough test?
       It is likely to=20 significantly reduce the noise. =
       Does=20 the increased daytime noise on the vertical correlate in time with the = noise=20 levels on the Lehman?

      =20 Regards,

       Chris = Chapman=20 Subject: GIF file showing a possible mine blast From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 00:51:57 -0700 Hello PSN; you should be able to copy and paste this image file then name it (a.b64) or (a.uue) and open it using winzip. Id like you to read it and see if I got the P and S picks right. Regards; geoff ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7D0B0.6EA2E820 Content-Type: image/gif; name="gvaminea.GIF" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="gvaminea.GIF" R0lGODlhAwO8AfcAAAAAAIAAAACAAICAAAAAgIAAgACAgICAgMDAwP8AAAD/AP//AAAA//8A/wD/ /////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMwAAZgAAmQAAzAAA/wAzAAAzMwAzZgAzmQAzzAAz/wBm AABmMwBmZgBmmQBmzABm/wCZAACZMwCZZgCZmQCZzACZ/wDMAADMMwDMZgDMmQDMzADM/wD/AAD/ MwD/ZgD/mQD/zAD//zMAADMAMzMAZjMAmTMAzDMA/zMzADMzMzMzZjMzmTMzzDMz/zNmADNmMzNm ZjNmmTNmzDNm/zOZADOZMzOZZjOZmTOZzDOZ/zPMADPMMzPMZjPMmTPMzDPM/zP/ADP/MzP/ZjP/ mTP/zDP//2YAAGYAM2YAZmYAmWYAzGYA/2YzAGYzM2YzZmYzmWYzzGYz/2ZmAGZmM2ZmZmZmmWZm zGZm/2aZAGaZM2aZZmaZmWaZzGaZ/2bMAGbMM2bMZmbMmWbMzGbM/2b/AGb/M2b/Zmb/mWb/zGb/ /5kAAJkAM5kAZpkAmZkAzJkA/5kzAJkzM5kzZpkzmZkzzJkz/5lmAJlmM5lmZplmmZlmzJlm/5mZ AJmZM5mZZpmZmZmZzJmZ/5nMAJnMM5nMZpnMmZnMzJnM/5n/AJn/M5n/Zpn/mZn/zJn//8wAAMwA 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3MfYFmozr7cqbYpIW1YannYwqkWssy6L2Y7C1n3iea1qTWtX2uYWtbuVqW1Ea9vF4Ja3qzWscc1a wt/qVrkuQy5wi2s9BxU3usct1sdk2lx8snZE1eWubDdqXb9qM7ypTS5Ah8vc8va2u9Ddrm/N6130 ste9xKVvd+U72/GOdLqBxW9p9Xte/mLLvtQFcFgEHJqPKdO27Suwfz/012f5c4IKvtKEubfZ+ho2 qBSuq1yJ/+thDX/WweMR7IfbWmKXZvjB+VVvYEfs4uo59rGxbW2AYRxXGePYeyGmLo+PO+MTt7jH HwYtNrU7XscGeb/KpKuJf/tkv0YZulNOb5UPzNoKp/i64r2ybiMMHBMvk8a+jSt7yyzcM485zbCF 73+3/GYOa7nBdKVznVfMXQNbp70Q1nGCAX1eMce3QUPm6I1H09rgCvlAh74zof8baUa7dqT1jTSa lcznC0vY0sfCdJs1zWZOY9jTOWazlp87an02mj6LJs2jNzppP9/Xv4QVtKRhXFhVH3jWfEaur0V9 X02b2ctxfq6tDU3rGVZa2HNmsan/SepSi/qE0y6OW/cc65lL43pLa15tsa99ZxKjOtFWfvW4QT3g bb8Y1WvtMqXZnWl2h5vI8JZut52M7gLjOc7y9nG+171vZAdc4Jv+LjYB+OkdAnzDa3W4w+dqV4jn tsY2TmuhMT5xENdV4h3muMY9LmKQ97XkG9d4xC3+cJKjVuXepbiSXX4ihjf4s7eFuUrALNad87zn Pv850IMu9KETvehGP/rOAgIAOw== ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7D0B0.6EA2E820-- __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Testing the Folded Pendulum From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 09:46:50 -0600 Hi All, I finished the Folded Pendulum Sensor. I will send pictures to = anyone interested. After I test it, and if it works, I will then post = the pictures on the internet, like I did on the "Slinky" All in all, it was a bit of a bear. I guess the fact it was a new = concept, for me, and that I could find only a couple examples, was part = of the issue. Thanks to all who helped me, or I would have never = gotten this far. At this point it seems to be working, but I can = qualify it's performance after it is tested. The two pendulum, one normal, one inverted have the same length, 7.625", = The box it is contained in is 32"x24". The best working natural period I could measure, was about 6 to 10 = seconds. I could obtain 15 seconds but it was too unstable. It has been pointed out to me that I should have achieved a longer = period using this approach. Perhaps other articles and examples may = show me how to improve the design. By the way if and when I record earthquakes using the sensor I will post = them on PSN as TCIDF, for "Folded Pendulum" TCIDzs=3D "Slinky is setting in the corner. I do have a question about measuring a sensor's period. I assume the = best way is to remove the damper, tap the arm, and time the cycles. Q. Is there another way, to estimate its period, with the damper = installed? On this sensor the damper is difficult to remove. =20 Different Subject Q. I don't really understand the FFT in AmaSeis. If I take one hour = of trace, containing road construction noise, and use Control/Fourier = Transform/Linear, I see a large spike at 1.607Hz another at 2.597Hz = and some other signals. Is this the frequency of the noise? Q. I highlighted an earthquake, and using the same steps I see a = section of spikes, starting at .2 and ending at .8Hz Is that the frequency of the recorded earthquake? Thanks Again, Ted
Hi All,  I finished the Folded = Pendulum=20 Sensor.  I will send pictures to anyone interested.  After I = test it,=20 and if it works, I will then post the pictures on the internet, like I = did on=20 the "Slinky"
 
All in all, it was a bit of a = bear.   I=20 guess the fact it was a new concept, for me, and that I could find = only a=20 couple examples, was part of the issue.   Thanks to all who = helped me,=20 or I would have never gotten this far.   At this point it = seems to be=20 working, but I can qualify it's performance after it is = tested.
 
The two pendulum, one normal, one = inverted have the=20 same length, 7.625",  The box it is contained in is = 32"x24".
The best working natural period I could = measure, was about 6 to 10 seconds.  I could obtain 15 seconds = but it=20 was too unstable.
It has been pointed out to me that I = should have=20 achieved a longer period using this approach.   Perhaps other = articles=20 and examples may show me how to improve the design.
 
By the way if and when I record = earthquakes using=20 the sensor I will post them on PSN as TCIDF, for "Folded = Pendulum"
TCIDzs=3D "Slinky is setting in the=20 corner.
 
I do have a question about measuring a = sensor's=20 period.  I assume the best way is to remove the damper, tap the = arm, and=20 time the cycles.
 
Q.   Is there another way, to = estimate=20 its period, with the damper installed?   On this sensor the = damper is=20 difficult to remove.
 
 
Different Subject
 
Q.   I don't really = understand the FFT in=20 AmaSeis.   If I take one hour of trace, containing road = construction=20 noise, and use Control/Fourier Transform/Linear,   I see a = large spike=20 at 1.607Hz another at 2.597Hz and some other signals.
Is this the frequency of the = noise?
 
Q.  I highlighted an earthquake, = and using the=20 same steps I see a section of spikes, starting at .2 and ending at=20 ..8Hz
Is that the frequency of the recorded=20 earthquake?
 
Thanks Again,  Ted
 
Subject: PSN to Wave File From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 14:37:00 -0600 Hi Folks, Bob created a "PSN-to_WavErev1.zip" which converts .psn to = ..wav, from Winquake. This is a neat thing! I ask permission to mention the program...and = Bob said "Yes, you have my permission. Everyone is welcome to use = whatever I come up with." I wish I knew how to do that stuff. The duration is about 2 sec. in = play time, from about 60 mins of .psn file. I did one and imported the .wav into a sound studio program.=20 I am having fun with it. I recorded twin earthquakes on 070727, off the = coast of Oregon, 4.7 and 4.6? Converted them to a .wav, using his = program, time stretch it, looped it, panned it L to R, and made it loop = for about 27 seconds. I then converted it into an mp3 to save space. It now is about 450K. When you play it, you can hear the two earthquakes, and their "P"s, it = pans from L to R, and then loops. Just fun. I will email the finished .mp3 to anyone who is interested. = tchannel1@............ Ted
Hi Folks,  Bob created a =20 "PSN-to_WavErev1.zip"  which converts .psn to .wav, from=20 Winquake.
This is a neat thing!   I ask = permission=20 to mention the program...and Bob said "Yes, you have my permission. = Everyone is=20 welcome to use whatever I come up with."
 
I wish I knew how to do that = stuff.  The=20 duration is about 2 sec. in play time, from about 60 mins of .psn=20 file.
 
I did one and imported the .wav into a = sound studio=20 program.
 
I am having fun with it.  I recorded twin earthquakes on = 070727,=20 off the coast of Oregon, 4.7 and 4.6?  Converted them to a .wav,=20 using his program,  time stretch it, looped it, panned it = L to R,=20 and made it loop for about 27 seconds.
 
I then converted it into an mp3 to save = space.  It now is about 450K.
When you play it, you can hear the two = earthquakes,=20 and their "P"s,  it pans from L to R, and then loops.
Just fun.
 
I will email the finished .mp3 to = anyone who is=20 interested.   tchannel1@............<= /DIV>
 
Ted
 
Subject: Re: PSN to Wave File From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 05:26:38 -0700 Hello PSN; I think this WAV technique of analysis might be called signature analysis. It is a subjective and not objective thing because it is related to what is called psycho-acoustics and intuition. every type of natural noise most probably has a sound that will be unique and yiu can tell what it is just by listening. I have noticed over time that close quakes sound like a stack of books being dropped on the floor and the long distant quakes sound more like a booming echoy sound. It would be difficult for a person to recreate these sounds by trying to fake them into the ground. Also I have noticed with FFT and the waterfall display that a teleseismic event looks somewhat like the voltage measured across a resistor whan you discharge a capacitor across it. I seriously wonder if that is not the case ???? comments welcome here ?? The energy seems of a quake seems to decay at the similar rate as a discharging capacitor. You could simulate this via mathematics in a computer but it would be difficult in real life because the energy needed in the ground is normally too great for a human to do it thenselves. Some freq seem to arrive first but they are not always the very same freq. So I guess that is why you need to be wide band. You are really looking at a kind of noise when you see any earthquakes and not a genuine signal with any purity. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 13:37 Subject: PSN to Wave File Hi Folks, Bob created a "PSN-to_WavErev1.zip" which converts .psn to .wav, from Winquake. This is a neat thing! I ask permission to mention the program...and Bob said "Yes, you have my permission. Everyone is welcome to use whatever I come up with." I wish I knew how to do that stuff. The duration is about 2 sec. in play time, from about 60 mins of .psn file. I did one and imported the .wav into a sound studio program. I am having fun with it. I recorded twin earthquakes on 070727, off the coast of Oregon, 4.7 and 4.6? Converted them to a .wav, using his program, time stretch it, looped it, panned it L to R, and made it loop for about 27 seconds. I then converted it into an mp3 to save space. It now is about 450K. When you play it, you can hear the two earthquakes, and their "P"s, it pans from L to R, and then loops. Just fun. I will email the finished .mp3 to anyone who is interested. tchannel1@............ Ted __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Testing the Folded Pendulum From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 05:29:16 -0700 Have you seen the seismometer they are building for a mars mission ? do you think you could duplicate one like that ??? I think it is only horizontal x-y. regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 08:46 Subject: Testing the Folded Pendulum Hi All, I finished the Folded Pendulum Sensor. I will send pictures to anyone interested. After I test it, and if it works, I will then post the pictures on the internet, like I did on the "Slinky" All in all, it was a bit of a bear. I guess the fact it was a new concept, for me, and that I could find only a couple examples, was part of the issue. Thanks to all who helped me, or I would have never gotten this far. At this point it seems to be working, but I can qualify it's performance after it is tested. The two pendulum, one normal, one inverted have the same length, 7.625", The box it is contained in is 32"x24". The best working natural period I could measure, was about 6 to 10 seconds. I could obtain 15 seconds but it was too unstable. It has been pointed out to me that I should have achieved a longer period using this approach. Perhaps other articles and examples may show me how to improve the design. By the way if and when I record earthquakes using the sensor I will post them on PSN as TCIDF, for "Folded Pendulum" TCIDzs= "Slinky is setting in the corner. I do have a question about measuring a sensor's period. I assume the best way is to remove the damper, tap the arm, and time the cycles. Q. Is there another way, to estimate its period, with the damper installed? On this sensor the damper is difficult to remove. Different Subject Q. I don't really understand the FFT in AmaSeis. If I take one hour of trace, containing road construction noise, and use Control/Fourier Transform/Linear, I see a large spike at 1.607Hz another at 2.597Hz and some other signals. Is this the frequency of the noise? Q. I highlighted an earthquake, and using the same steps I see a section of spikes, starting at .2 and ending at .8Hz Is that the frequency of the recorded earthquake? Thanks Again, Ted __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Testing the Folded Pendulum From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 06:41:01 -0600 Geoffrey, No I have not see it. I will look, Thanks, Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey" To: Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Testing the Folded Pendulum > Have you seen the seismometer they are building for > a mars mission ? do you think you could duplicate > one like that ??? > I think it is only horizontal x-y. > > regards; > geoff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 08:46 > Subject: Testing the Folded Pendulum > > > Hi All, I finished the Folded Pendulum Sensor. I will send pictures to > anyone interested. After I test it, and if it works, I will then post the > pictures on the internet, like I did on the "Slinky" > > All in all, it was a bit of a bear. I guess the fact it was a new > concept, for me, and that I could find only a couple examples, was part of > the issue. Thanks to all who helped me, or I would have never gotten > this far. At this point it seems to be working, but I can qualify it's > performance after it is tested. > > The two pendulum, one normal, one inverted have the same length, 7.625", > The box it is contained in is 32"x24". > The best working natural period I could measure, was about 6 to 10 > seconds. I could obtain 15 seconds but it was too unstable. > It has been pointed out to me that I should have achieved a longer period > using this approach. Perhaps other articles and examples may show me how > to improve the design. > > By the way if and when I record earthquakes using the sensor I will post > them on PSN as TCIDF, for "Folded Pendulum" > TCIDzs= "Slinky is setting in the corner. > > I do have a question about measuring a sensor's period. I assume the best > way is to remove the damper, tap the arm, and time the cycles. > > Q. Is there another way, to estimate its period, with the damper > installed? On this sensor the damper is difficult to remove. > > > Different Subject > > Q. I don't really understand the FFT in AmaSeis. If I take one hour of > trace, containing road construction noise, and use Control/Fourier > Transform/Linear, I see a large spike at 1.607Hz another at 2.597Hz and > some other signals. > Is this the frequency of the noise? > > Q. I highlighted an earthquake, and using the same steps I see a section > of spikes, starting at .2 and ending at .8Hz > Is that the frequency of the recorded earthquake? > > Thanks Again, Ted > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Testing the Folded Pendulum From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 08:10:32 -0500 < Have you seen the seismometer they are building for a mars mission ? do you think you could duplicate < one like that ??? I think it is only horizontal x-y. Geoff, If you have the URL for this information, I think may of us would like to read about it. Regards, Jerry
< Have you seen the seismometer they are building for a mars = mission ?=20 do you think you could duplicate
< one like that ???  I think = it is=20 only horizontal x-y.
 
Geoff, If you have the URL for this information, I think may = of us=20 would like to read about it.
Regards,
Jerry 
 

 
Subject: Re: Testing the Folded Pendulum From: "Geoffrey" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 06:54:05 -0700 I will try to find it again. It was at an old MARS site in a NASA website. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Payton" To: Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 06:10 Subject: Re: Testing the Folded Pendulum >< Have you seen the seismometer they are building for a mars mission ? do > you think you could duplicate > < one like that ??? I think it is only horizontal x-y. > > > Geoff, If you have the URL for this information, I think may of us would > like to read about it. > Regards, > Jerry > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Testing the Folded Pendulum From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 07:43:55 -0700 Ted, Keep in mind that the FFT is always done on the entire trace that has been extracted to the event viewer window. Even if just part of the trace in the event viewer window is highlighted, the FFT will be done on the whole trace. Cheers, John At 08:46 AM 7/28/2007, Ted wrote: I highlighted an earthquake, and using the same steps ... __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Folded Pendulum Pictures From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:05:32 -0600 I am new at posting pictures on Picasa. I posted these, but I reduced = their size first...Maybe I should not have made them so small. visit = http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 If they are too small, don't = hesitate to email me and I will send you better ones. I also have more = pictures, with greater details. The posting just show the idea. I first made the Normal pendulum straight, not like a "C", and made the = inverted Pend. Like a "C". This made it Left side heavy, it worked but = this C+C worked better. Chris pointed out I could have made both of them straight, and in the = long run I should have. I have a design for a straignt approach to both = pendulums............. But this worked. You can't see in the picture, but the hinges are two pieces of .018" = brass music wire. That's two pieces on each of the 4 hinges=3D 8 total wires. 1/4" = exposed wire, 2" behind the plates. 1" top 1" bottom. Plexiglas to cover the front. If you have questions or want some good pictures, just ask. Thanks, Ted
I am new at posting pictures on = Picasa.  I=20 posted these, but I reduced their size first...Maybe I should not have = made them=20 so small.   visit http://picasaweb.google.c= om/tchannel33 If=20 they are too small, don't hesitate to email me and I will send you = better=20 ones.  I also have more pictures, with greater = details.
 
The posting just show the = idea.
I first made the Normal pendulum = straight, not like=20 a "C", and made the inverted Pend. Like a "C".  This made it Left = side=20 heavy, it worked but this C+C worked better.
Chris pointed out I could have made = both of them=20 straight, and in the long run I should have. I have a design for a = straignt=20 approach to both pendulums............. But this = worked.
You can't see in the picture, but the = hinges are=20 two pieces of .018" brass music wire.
That's two pieces on each of the 4 = hinges=3D 8 total=20 wires.  1/4" exposed wire, 2" behind the plates. 1" top 1"=20 bottom.
 
Plexiglas to cover the = front.
If you have questions or want some good = pictures,=20 just ask.
 
Thanks, Ted
Subject: Re: Folded Pendulum Pictures From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 13:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Wow! Ted this is really nice work. Keep us posted on your progress. Pete --- tchannel1@............ wrote: > I am new at posting pictures on Picasa. I posted > these, but I reduced their size first...Maybe I > should not have made them so small. visit > http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 If they are > too small, don't hesitate to email me and I will > send you better ones. I also have more pictures, > with greater details. > > The posting just show the idea. > I first made the Normal pendulum straight, not like > a "C", and made the inverted Pend. Like a "C". This > made it Left side heavy, it worked but this C+C > worked better. > Chris pointed out I could have made both of them > straight, and in the long run I should have. I have > a design for a straignt approach to both > pendulums............. But this worked. > You can't see in the picture, but the hinges are two > pieces of .018" brass music wire. > That's two pieces on each of the 4 hinges= 8 total > wires. 1/4" exposed wire, 2" behind the plates. 1" > top 1" bottom. > > Plexiglas to cover the front. > If you have questions or want some good pictures, > just ask. > > Thanks, Ted ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Folded Pendulum Pictures From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:49:24 -0700 At 12:05 PM 7/29/2007, Ted wrote: >Maybe I should not have made them so small. Ted, Nice, clean design. Google has lots of disk space. Why not post the highest resolution versions that you have? Cheers, John __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Folded Pendulum Pictures From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:53:59 -0600 John, Yes I need to..I only have dial up, so I always try to keep the files small. I need to experiment to find what size work best. Maybe I will try one near full size, and see. Thanks, Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lahr" To: Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Folded Pendulum Pictures > At 12:05 PM 7/29/2007, Ted wrote: >>Maybe I should not have made them so small. > > Ted, > > Nice, clean design. > > Google has lots of disk space. Why not post the highest resolution > versions that you have? > > Cheers, > John > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Folded Pendulum Pictures From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:33:11 -0600 Hi John, I did post two higher resolution pict of the Pendulums, they are better. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lahr" To: Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 9:49 PM Subject: Re: Folded Pendulum Pictures > At 12:05 PM 7/29/2007, Ted wrote: >>Maybe I should not have made them so small. > > Ted, > > Nice, clean design. > > Google has lots of disk space. Why not post the highest resolution > versions that you have? > > Cheers, > John > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: "PSN-to-WAVE" utility From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2007 22:36:01 EDT Dale Hardy has posted my "PSN-to-WAVE" utility on his web site at the bottom of page: _http://www.daleh.id.au/earthquake_sounds.html_ (http://www.daleh.id.au/earthquake_sounds.html) "PSN-to-WAVE" allows you to listen to WinQuake event files, played at a speed you select, and to create WAVE files if you wish. An hour of real recording time on teleseisms will result in an audio file of about 2 seconds duration. Cheers, Bob ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
  Dale Hardy has posted my "PSN-to-WAVE" utility on his web site a= t=20 the bottom of page:
 
  http://www.daleh.id.a= u/earthquake_sounds.html
 
"PSN-to-WAVE" allows you to listen to WinQuake event files, played at a= =20 speed you select, and to create WAVE files if you wish. An hour of real=20 recording time on teleseisms will result in an audio file of about 2 seconds= =20 duration.
 
Cheers,
 
Bob



Get a snea= k peek of the all-new AOL.com. Subject: Where are all the 7's From: tchannel1@............ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 06:45:18 -0600 I keep a calendar of the earthquakes I record, just to see if I am = getting the same numbers each month. Basically the number are similar. April, 15 events, May12., June 17 = and July 19. June had a slow two weeks, but then played catch up. = This site keep a nice list http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0197840.html Where are all the 7's+ for the year ? History show one per month at = least. Tomorrow is month 8, which means we are about 5 behind. To = catch up we would need 10 between now and Dec. Not to mention no 8's. No predictions on my part, just reflecting on "Accounts Receivables" I think I will try to limit my downtime, for the next few months.=20 Cheers, Ted
I keep a calendar of the earthquakes I = record,=20  just to see if I am getting the same numbers each = month.
Basically the number are similar.  = April,=20  15 events, May12., June 17 and July 19.    June had = a slow=20 two weeks, but then played catch up.  This site keep a nice list http://www.infopleas= e.com/ipa/A0197840.html
 
Where are all the 7's+ for the = year ?=20  History show one per month at least.   Tomorrow is month = 8,=20 which means we are  about  5 behind.   To catch up = we would=20 need 10 between now and Dec.   Not to mention no=20 8's.
 
No predictions on my part, just = reflecting on=20 "Accounts Receivables"
 
I think I will try to limit my = downtime, for the=20 next few months. 
 
Cheers,
 Ted
 
 
Subject: Technical Lesson Please From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 18:36:47 -0500 Not being a physics student and rather dense (yes, I admit it), will someone please explain what a "zero length spring" is? I have searched on the net and found this law and that law, which means nothing to me. Finally, I found a webpage that also called it a constant pressure spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring that wound around itself, much like an alarm clock spring. It a zero length spring simply one that returns to its original shape after the force is released? Thank you, Gerald Payton
Not being a physics student = and rather=20 dense (yes, I admit it), will someone please explain what a "zero length = spring"=20 is?  I have searched on the net and found this law and that law, = which=20 means nothing to me.  Finally, I found a webpage that also called = it a=20 constant pressure spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring that = wound=20 around itself, much like an alarm clock spring.
 
It a zero length spring = simply one that=20 returns to its original shape after the force is released?
 
Thank you,
Gerald=20 Payton
Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:47:17 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/01, gpayton880@....... writes: > Will someone please explain what a "zero length spring" is? Hi Jerry, A zero length spring is a TIGHTLY WOUND extension type spring, often with pull loops on each end. If you add increasing weight to it, it does not extend at all until some critical weight is reached. Increasing the weight further increases the length proportional to the weight. You measure between the loops on the ends, or between two clamp points if it just has straight end wires. There is thus a 'step' in the characteristic. However, if you plot the applied weight against the overall length and then extend the line below the step back towards zero, the line goes through the zero load / zero length point. This is the length that the spring would have if the coils did not prevent it from contracting. It is used on older type vertical seismometers to obtain a long natural period. See LaCoste references on psn and photos at http://www.geocities.com/meredithlamb/page026.html Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 2007/08/01, gpay= ton880@....... writes:

Will someone please expl= ain what a "zero length spring" is?


Hi Jerry,

       A zero length spring is a TIGHTLY WOUND= extension type spring, often with pull loops on each end. If you add increa= sing weight to it, it does not extend at all until some critical weight is r= eached. Increasing the weight further increases the length proportional to t= he weight. You measure between the loops on the ends, or between two clamp p= oints if it just has straight end wires.
       There is thus a 'step' in the character= istic. However, if you plot the applied weight against the overall length an= d then extend the line below the step back towards zero, the line goes throu= gh the zero load / zero length point.
       This is the length that the spring woul= d have if the coils did not prevent it from contracting. It is used on older= type vertical seismometers to obtain a long natural period.  See LaCos= te references on psn and photos at http://www.geocities.com/meredithlamb/pag= e026.html

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: "Dale Hardy" photon1@........... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 14:20:01 +1000 Jerry, have you seen Bob's article on springs ? http://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html very informative cheers Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jerry Payton=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:36 AM Subject: Technical Lesson Please Not being a physics student and rather dense (yes, I admit it), will = someone please explain what a "zero length spring" is? I have searched = on the net and found this law and that law, which means nothing to me. = Finally, I found a webpage that also called it a constant pressure = spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring that wound around itself, = much like an alarm clock spring. It a zero length spring simply one that returns to its original shape = after the force is released? Thank you, Gerald Payton -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release Date: = 30/07/2007 5:02 PM
Jerry, have you seen Bob's article on springs ?
http= ://jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/springcalc/index.html
very informative
cheers
Dale
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jerry = Payton=20
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, = 2007 9:36=20 AM
Subject: Technical Lesson = Please

Not being a physics = student and=20 rather dense (yes, I admit it), will someone please explain what a = "zero=20 length spring" is?  I have searched on the net and found this law = and=20 that law, which means nothing to me.  Finally, I found a webpage = that=20 also called it a constant pressure spring and displayed a large heavy = duty=20 spring that wound around itself, much like an alarm clock = spring.
 
It a zero length spring = simply one=20 that returns to its original shape after the force is = released?
 
Thank you,
Gerald = Payton

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.0/927 - Release = Date:=20 30/07/2007 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:27:35 -0700 Hi Jerry, Physicists like to think of things in an ideal world, where a mass can be concentrated at a point and where a relaxed spring will take little force to expand. Visualize a spring lying on a table, with one end fixed to the other table and the other free to move when pulled by a spring scale. Consider the location of the free end to be at X = 0. The spring scale is attached, but reads zero force. The distance from the fixed end to the free end is L, the spring length. As the spring scale is pulled in the +X direction the spring will pull back in the -X direction. If the free end is pulled to X, the distorted length will be L+X. The Force = -k(L+X - L), where k is the spring constant. Of course L+X-L just equals X, the amount that the spring was stretched beyond its relaxed length. The reason for the minus sign is that the direction of the force is in the opposite direction to the extension. As the measurements are taken, it is noted that applying even a very small force will slightly extend the spring. Therefore, the "length" of this spring would just as it appears to be. Springs can be wound so that when undisturbed they are prevented from getting any shorter due to the thickness of their own coil wire. In that case some measurements are necessary to determine their "length," which is what their unstressed length would be had not their own coils gotten in the way. I made some spring constant measurements recently that are summarized on this page: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/springs/ In each case I hung the spring from a nail and measured the length with nothing attached, as well as with two different weights attached. Look at the EQ1 spring, for example. Weight (kg) Length of Spring (cm) 0 27.72 0.93 33.75 1.13 38.66 k (kg/cm) 0.041 Effective L (cm) 10.92 At first glance one might think that the length of the spring was 27.7 cm, but the computed length actually turned out to be only 10.9 cm. If you look at the graph on the web site above, you can see that the value 10.9 is determined by extrapolation. 38.66 cm with 1.13 kg and 33.75 cm with 0.93 km Based on those two observations, what would be the length with zero kg? Turns out to be 10.92 cm. Hope this helps! John At 04:36 PM 7/31/2007, you wrote: >Not being a physics student and rather dense (yes, I admit it), will >someone please explain what a "zero length spring" is? I have >searched on the net and found this law and that law, which means >nothing to me. Finally, I found a webpage that also called it a >constant pressure spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring >that wound around itself, much like an alarm clock spring. > >It a zero length spring simply one that returns to its original >shape after the force is released? No. If a spring doesn't return to it's original shape when the force is released, then it's been permanently deformed - not a good thing! > >Thank you, >Gerald Payton __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: Tangazazen@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 04:28:14 EDT Hi, With regard to zero-length springs, it might be of interest to note that the springs in an angle poise lamp are negative length. That is the backward extrapolation intersects the axis on the negative side of zero but due to non-linearity, moves through zero to the positive side as the force is increased. It is possible to adjust the force to produce an intersect at zero but this point is not stable with temperature. For a vertical seismometer the period can be set to 12 to 15 seconds and may remain in this state for a few hours in a domestic environment. Setting such a system to 5 seconds instead produces a high period stability even though there is a length change with temperature. Martin
Hi,
 
  With regard to zero-length springs, it might be of interest to n= ote=20 that the springs in an angle poise lamp are negative length. That is the=20 backward extrapolation intersects the axis on the negative side of zero= =20 but due to non-linearity, moves through zero to the positive side as th= e=20 force is increased. It is possible to adjust the force to produce an interse= ct=20 at zero but this point is not stable with temperature. For a vertical=20 seismometer the period can be set to 12 to 15 seconds and may remain in= =20 this state for a few hours in a domestic environment. Setting such a sy= stem=20 to 5 seconds instead produces a high period stability even though=20 there is a length change with temperature.   
 
 
Martin    
 Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 08:28:49 -0500 Gentlemen: With ALL due respect for each of you, I sincerely appreciate the replies that I received from each of you regarding the Zero Length Spring question. I really do! HOWEVER, I thought this was an AMATEUR seismology discussion net, not a scientific symposium. I depend upon the threads on this net to learn, at least try. Am I to repeat your answers to a minimum wage clerk at the local hardware store that might not even speak English? It's like asking what time is it and being told how a watch works. I feel like the guy in the Caveman Commercial on TV............HUH? Respectfully, Jerry
Gentlemen:
 
With ALL due respect for each of you, I sincerely appreciate the = replies=20 that I received from each of you regarding the Zero Length Spring=20 question.  I really do!
 
HOWEVER, I thought this was an AMATEUR seismology discussion = net,=20 not a scientific symposium.  I depend upon the threads on this net = to=20 learn, at least try.
 
Am I to repeat your answers to a minimum wage clerk at the = local=20 hardware store that might not even speak English?  It's like asking = what=20 time is it and being told how a watch works.  I feel like the guy = in the=20 Caveman Commercial on TV............HUH?
 
Respectfully,
Jerry
 
 
 
Subject: Re[2]: Technical Lesson Please From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 14:20:42 +0000 Hello Jerry, A normal screen door spring is a "zero lenght spring" it is made be twisting the wire as the spring is wound. The screen door spring would be shorter if it's own coils didn't get in the way. Zero lenght = constant force = Its force is proportional to its entire length, not just the stretched length, and its force is therefore constant over the range of flexures in which the spring is elastic Angel Wednesday, August 1, 2007, 1:28:49 PM, you wrote: > Gentlemen: > > With ALL due respect for each of you, I sincerely appreciate the > replies that I received from each of you regarding the Zero Length Spring question. I really do! > > HOWEVER, I thought this was an AMATEUR seismology discussion net, > not a scientific symposium. I depend upon the threads on this net to learn, at least try. > > Am I to repeat your answers to a minimum wage clerk at the local > hardware store that might not even speak English? It's like asking > what time is it and being told how a watch works. I feel like the > guy in the Caveman Commercial on TV............HUH? > > Respectfully, > Jerry > > > -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Technical Lesson Please From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 09:43:12 -0500 Angel, Thank you. Thank you Thank you. Now, this I can understand. BEST regards, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Angel To: Jerry Payton Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:20 AM Subject: Re[2]: Technical Lesson Please Hello Jerry, A normal screen door spring is a "zero lenght spring" it is made be twisting the wire as the spring is wound. The screen door spring would be shorter if it's own coils didn't get in the way. Zero lenght = constant force = Its force is proportional to its entire length, not just the stretched length, and its force is therefore constant over the range of flexures in which the spring is elastic Angel Wednesday, August 1, 2007, 1:28:49 PM, you wrote: > Gentlemen: > > With ALL due respect for each of you, I sincerely appreciate the > replies that I received from each of you regarding the Zero Length Spring > question. I really do! > > HOWEVER, I thought this was an AMATEUR seismology discussion net, > not a scientific symposium. I depend upon the threads on this net to > learn, at least try. > > Am I to repeat your answers to a minimum wage clerk at the local > hardware store that might not even speak English? It's like asking > what time is it and being told how a watch works. I feel like the > guy in the Caveman Commercial on TV............HUH? > > Respectfully, > Jerry > > > -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)
Angel,
 
Thank you.  Thank you  Thank you.  Now, this I can=20 understand.
 
BEST regards,
Jerry
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Angel
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: Re[2]: Technical Lesson Please

Hello Jerry,

A normal screen door spring is a = "zero lenght=20 spring" it is made be twisting the wire as the spring is wound.  = The screen=20 door spring would be shorter if it's own coils didn't get in the=20 way.

Zero lenght =3D constant force =3D Its force is proportional = to its=20 entire length, not just the stretched length, and its force is therefore = constant over the range of flexures in which the spring is=20 elastic

Angel



Wednesday, August 1, 2007, 1:28:49 = PM, you=20 wrote:

> Gentlemen:
> 
> With ALL due = respect for=20 each of you, I sincerely appreciate the
> replies that I received = from=20 each of you regarding the Zero Length Spring question.  I really=20 do!
> 
> HOWEVER, I thought this was an AMATEUR = seismology=20 discussion net,
> not a scientific symposium.  I depend upon = the=20 threads on this net to learn, at least try.
> 
> Am I = to=20 repeat your answers to a minimum wage clerk at the local
> = hardware store=20 that might not even speak English?  It's like asking
> what = time is=20 it and being told how a watch works.  I feel like the
> guy = in the=20 Caveman Commercial on TV............HUH?
> 
>=20 Respectfully,
> Jerry
> 
> 
> =20



--
Best=20 regards,
 Angel

__________________________________________= ________________

Public=20 Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@............... with=20
the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.co= m/maillist.html=20 for more information.
Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 11:29:47 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/01, gpayton880@....... writes: > Am I to repeat your answers to a minimum wage clerk at the local hardware > store that might not even speak English? Hi Jerry, No, that is a different situation. It is up to you what sort of spring you buy. Your posting specifically asked what a zero length spring was and requested a technical lesson. Ask the clerk for a spring for an Anglepoise lamp, or for an extension spring of whatever length you need? Ask to see their range of springs and make your choice? There have been details of suitable springs on previous psn postings. Maybe you could look them up in the archives? Download the archives and search for 'spring'? Also see http://jclahr.com/science/psn/hill/index.html where a Lowes' C311 spring was mentioned for a very similar application. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/01, gpayton880@....... writes:

Am I to repeat your answers to=20= a minimum wage clerk at the local hardware store that might not even speak E= nglish?


Hi Jerry,

       No, that is a different situation. It i= s up to you what sort of spring you buy. Your posting specifically asked wha= t a zero length spring was and requested a technical lesson.

       Ask the clerk for a spring for an Angle= poise lamp, or for an extension spring of whatever length you need? Ask to s= ee their range of springs and make your choice? There have been details of s= uitable springs on previous psn postings. Maybe you could look them up in th= e archives? Download the archives and search for 'spring'?

       Also see http://jclahr.com/science/psn/= hill/index.html where a Lowes' C311 spring was mentioned for a very similar=20= application.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 10:52:52 -0500 < Your posting specifically asked what a zero length spring was and requested a technical lesson. My apology Chris, I'll be more selective in my choice of words next time! Regards, Jerry
< Your = posting=20 specifically asked what a zero length spring was and requested a = technical=20 lesson.
My apology Chris, I'll be more = selective in=20 my choice of words next time! 
 
Regards,
Jerry
 
 
 Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: Brett Nordgren Brett3mr@............. Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 16:56:56 -0400 Jerry, Your question comes up fairly regularly on the list and sometimes generates some confusing information. I'll try to go at it from a 'hardware store' approach. Most close-wound extension springs have some amount of pre-tension. That is, you have to pull on them with significant force before they begin to stretch. A so-called zero-length spring has its pre-tension force carefully controlled to be an exact value relative to its length and spring constant (its force increase/length increase). To be precise, the pre-tension force 'F' must be designed to equal the the spring's unstretched length 'L' x its spring constant 'k'. Most springs from the hardware stores have pre-tensioning that is substantially less than what is needed for them to be "zero-length". Actually, however, there is only one situation in which such a spring is of much interest, and that is in the particular geometry discovered by Lucien LaCoste when he was studying designs for vertical seismometers. Some form of that geometry, using a zero-length spring, had been employed for many years in LaCoste & Romberg Gravity Meters. ** When used with any other geometry, there is nothing all that magical about the zero-length spring characteristic. ** The particular LaCoste geometry, combined with a zero-length spring, has the property that regardless of how you position the seismic mass, up or down, it always remains exactly balanced, that is, the spring-mass has an infinite period of oscillation. However, having such a setup may not be all that good for home seismometers. In general when folks start trying designs which have very long natural periods, they tend to have lots of problems with position stability, of the sort that Ted mentions in his 28 July PSN-L posting "Testing the Folded Pendulum". When working with a very long natural-period design, I would expect that you would need to use some sort of electronic feedback in order to have a chance of its working reliably. To see what a real spring looks like, I measured a Servalite #59 from the hardware store, a spring that some others have used for their verticals. The results, data and a graph, are at http://bnordgren.org/seismo/Servalite59.pdf Its unstretched length was about 13.8 cm, and its pre-tension was near 205g, which meant that you might be able to call it a "6.4cm-length" spring. In order for it to be "zero-length" its pre-tension would need to have been about 382g, slightly more than 86% greater than what it was. Hope all this doesn't just add to the confusion. Brett At 06:36 PM 7/31/2007 -0500, you wrote: >Not being a physics student and rather dense (yes, I admit it), will >someone please explain what a "zero length spring" is? I have searched on >the net and found this law and that law, which means nothing to >me. Finally, I found a webpage that also called it a constant pressure >spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring that wound around itself, >much like an alarm clock spring. > >It a zero length spring simply one that returns to its original shape >after the force is released? > >Thank you, >Gerald Payton My e-mail address above should be working, but if not you can always use my mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html using your Web browser. Jerry,

Your question comes up fairly regularly on the list and sometimes generates some confusing information.  I'll try to go at it from a 'hardware store' approach.

Most close-wound extension springs have some amount of pre-tension.  That is, you have to pull on them with significant force before they begin to stretch.  A so-called zero-length spring has its pre-tension force carefully controlled to be an exact value relative to its length and spring constant (its force increase/length increase).  To be precise, the pre-tension force 'F' must be designed to equal the the spring's unstretched length 'L' x its spring constant 'k'.  Most springs from the hardware stores have pre-tensioning that is substantially less than what is needed for them to be "zero-length".

Actually, however, there is only one situation in which such a spring is of much interest, and that is in the particular geometry discovered by Lucien LaCoste when he was studying designs for vertical seismometers.  Some form of that geometry, using a zero-length spring, had been employed for many years in LaCoste & Romberg Gravity Meters. 

** When used with any other geometry, there is nothing all that magical about the zero-length spring characteristic. **

The particular LaCoste geometry, combined with a zero-length spring, has the property that regardless of how you position the seismic mass, up or down, it always remains exactly balanced, that is, the spring-mass has an infinite period of oscillation.  However, having such a setup may not be all that good for home seismometers.  In general when folks start trying designs which have very long natural periods, they tend to have lots of problems with position stability, of the sort that Ted mentions in his 28 July PSN-L posting "Testing the Folded Pendulum".  When working with a very long natural-period design, I would expect that you would need to use some sort of electronic feedback in order to have a chance of its working reliably.

To see what a real spring looks like, I measured a Servalite #59 from the hardware store, a spring that some others have used for their verticals.  The results, data and a graph, are at http://bnordgren.org/seismo/Servalite59.pdf  Its unstretched length was about 13.8 cm, and its pre-tension was near 205g, which meant that you might be able to call it a "6.4cm-length" spring.  In order for it to be "zero-length" its pre-tension would need to have been about 382g, slightly more than 86% greater than what it was.

Hope all this doesn't just add to the confusion.

Brett


At 06:36 PM 7/31/2007 -0500, you wrote:
Not being a physics student and rather dense (yes, I admit it), will someone please explain what a "zero length spring" is?  I have searched on the net and found this law and that law, which means nothing to me.  Finally, I found a webpage that also called it a constant pressure spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring that wound around itself, much like an alarm clock spring.
 
It a zero length spring simply one that returns to its original shape after the force is released?
 
Thank you,
Gerald Payton



              My e-mail address above should be working, but if not
you can always use my mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html
                           using your Web browser. Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 16:35:15 -0500 Brett, Thank you for an EXCELLENT reply and explanation. You study to the Servalite #59 springs was very helpful too. That is exactly what I hope to use in my present project. Ted has been kind enough to obtain it for me, since it apparently is difficult to find here in my area. I really appreciate your patience and explaining it in such detail. I can actually understand and do not feel like a knuckle-dragging caveman. Best regards, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Brett Nordgren To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 3:56 PM Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please Jerry, Your question comes up fairly regularly on the list and sometimes generates some confusing information. I'll try to go at it from a 'hardware store' approach. Most close-wound extension springs have some amount of pre-tension. That is, you have to pull on them with significant force before they begin to stretch. A so-called zero-length spring has its pre-tension force carefully controlled to be an exact value relative to its length and spring constant (its force increase/length increase). To be precise, the pre-tension force 'F' must be designed to equal the spring's unstretched length 'L' x its spring constant 'k'. Most springs from the hardware stores have pre-tensioning that is substantially less than what is needed for them to be "zero-length". Actually, however, there is only one situation in which such a spring is of much interest, and that is in the particular geometry discovered by Lucien LaCoste when he was studying designs for vertical seismometers. Some form of that geometry, using a zero-length spring, had been employed for many years in LaCoste & Romberg Gravity Meters. ** When used with any other geometry, there is nothing all that magical about the zero-length spring characteristic. ** The particular LaCoste geometry, combined with a zero-length spring, has the property that regardless of how you position the seismic mass, up or down, it always remains exactly balanced, that is, the spring-mass has an infinite period of oscillation. However, having such a setup may not be all that good for home seismometers. In general when folks start trying designs which have very long natural periods, they tend to have lots of problems with position stability, of the sort that Ted mentions in his 28 July PSN-L posting "Testing the Folded Pendulum". When working with a very long natural-period design, I would expect that you would need to use some sort of electronic feedback in order to have a chance of its working reliably. To see what a real spring looks like, I measured a Servalite #59 from the hardware store, a spring that some others have used for their verticals. The results, data and a graph, are at http://bnordgren.org/seismo/Servalite59.pdf Its unstretched length was about 13.8 cm, and its pre-tension was near 205g, which meant that you might be able to call it a "6.4cm-length" spring. In order for it to be "zero-length" its pre-tension would need to have been about 382g, slightly more than 86% greater than what it was. Hope all this doesn't just add to the confusion. Brett At 06:36 PM 7/31/2007 -0500, you wrote: Not being a physics student and rather dense (yes, I admit it), will someone please explain what a "zero length spring" is? I have searched on the net and found this law and that law, which means nothing to me. Finally, I found a webpage that also called it a constant pressure spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring that wound around itself, much like an alarm clock spring. It a zero length spring simply one that returns to its original shape after the force is released? Thank you, Gerald Payton My e-mail address above should be working, but if not you can always use my mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html using your Web browser.
Brett,
 
Thank you for an EXCELLENT reply and explanation.  You study = to the=20 Servalite #59 springs was very helpful too.  That is exactly what I = hope to=20 use in my present project.  Ted has been kind enough to obtain it = for me,=20 since it apparently is difficult to find here in my area.
 
I really appreciate your patience and explaining it in such = detail.  I=20 can actually understand and do not feel like a knuckle-dragging = caveman.
 
Best regards,
Jerry
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Brett=20 Nordgren
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: Technical Lesson Please

Jerry,

Your question comes up fairly regularly on = the list=20 and sometimes generates some confusing information.  I'll try to go = at it=20 from a 'hardware store' approach.

Most close-wound extension = springs have=20 some amount of pre-tension.  That is, you have to pull on them with = significant force before they begin to stretch.  A so-called = zero-length=20 spring has its pre-tension force carefully controlled to be an exact = value=20 relative to its length and spring constant (its force increase/length=20 increase).  To be precise, the pre-tension force 'F' must be = designed to=20 equal the spring's unstretched length 'L' x its spring constant = 'k'.  Most=20 springs from the hardware stores have pre-tensioning that is = substantially less=20 than what is needed for them to be "zero-length".

Actually, = however,=20 there is only one situation in which such a spring is of much interest, = and that=20 is in the particular geometry discovered by Lucien LaCoste when he was = studying=20 designs for vertical seismometers.  Some form of that geometry, = using a=20 zero-length spring, had been employed for many years in LaCoste & = Romberg=20 Gravity Meters. 

** When used with any other geometry, = there is=20 nothing all that magical about the zero-length spring characteristic.=20 **

The particular LaCoste geometry, combined with a zero-length = spring,=20 has the property that regardless of how you position the seismic mass, = up or=20 down, it always remains exactly balanced, that is, the spring-mass has = an=20 infinite period of oscillation.  However, having such a setup may = not be=20 all that good for home seismometers.  In general when folks start = trying=20 designs which have very long natural periods, they tend to have lots of = problems=20 with position stability, of the sort that Ted mentions in his 28 July = PSN-L=20 posting "Testing the Folded Pendulum".  When working with a very = long=20 natural-period design, I would expect that you would need to use some = sort of=20 electronic feedback in order to have a chance of its working = reliably.

To=20 see what a real spring looks like, I measured a Servalite #59 from the = hardware=20 store, a spring that some others have used for their verticals.  = The=20 results, data and a graph, are at http://bnordgren.org/seismo/Servalite59.pdf  = Its=20 unstretched length was about 13.8 cm, and its pre-tension was near 205g, = which=20 meant that you might be able to call it a "6.4cm-length" spring.  = In order=20 for it to be "zero-length" its pre-tension would need to have been about = 382g,=20 slightly more than 86% greater than what it was.

Hope all this = doesn't=20 just add to the confusion.

Brett


At 06:36 PM 7/31/2007 = -0500,=20 you wrote:
Not being a physics student and rather = dense=20 (yes, I admit it), will someone please explain what a "zero length = spring"=20 is?  I have searched on the net and found this law and that law, = which=20 means nothing to me.  Finally, I found a webpage that also called = it a=20 constant pressure spring and displayed a large heavy duty spring that = wound=20 around itself, much like an alarm clock = spring.
 
It a zero length spring simply one = that returns=20 to its original shape after the force is = released?
 
Thank you,
Gerald=20 Payton



      = ;       =20 My e-mail address above should be working, but if not
you can always = use my=20 mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html=20
           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;  =20 using your Web browser. Subject: Period and Hinges From: tchannel1@............ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 16:16:16 -0600 Hi All, Two new questions from me today. On the Folded Pendulum, which is now being tweaked and tested, there is = a balance rod contains three weights or masses. Large, medium and small. After some minor adjustments I can change the = period. From maybe 2, to maybe 10 seconds. I am still working on how to make the longer, but for now I can set it = where I want. My verticals record more and smaller earthquakes. To me there is some = advantage to these shorter periods, but I am aware of the advantages of = the longer periods as well. On the verticals I often pick up 5+ that I = don't pick up with the Lehman or Folded, as they are set for the longer = period. However when I record a 7M like today the signal goes on for = 2 and sometimes 3 hours, because of the longer period, where the = vertical will record much less, maybe 30 mins. My question is where should I set the period for the best overall = results? Or is it just a personal preference? My second question has to do with testing the resistance or friction of = various hinges. I have seen razor blades, roller on roller , wires, figure 8 wires, foil = and so on.....Has anyone tested or qualified the different using one or = more of these methods? I did a simple test, using various hinges, foil, wire, razor blades and = eyebolts. I could and did see some difference in how long a pendulum = would swing free. I just moved the pendulum 6" and let it go counted = the cycles until it stopped. Not very accurate, but I could see only about 20 percent different, = between what I would call good and better hinges. I am not suggesting this test tell the whole story. So if there is a = study I would like to see it or hear about your own testing. I was = surprised there was not a greater different on my test. Thanks, Ted
Hi All,    Two new = questions from me=20 today.
 
On the Folded Pendulum, which is now = being tweaked=20 and tested, there is a balance rod contains three weights or=20 masses.
Large, medium and small.   = After some=20 minor adjustments I can change the period.  From maybe 2,  to = maybe 10=20 seconds.
I am still working on how to make the = longer, but=20 for now I can set it where I want.
 
My verticals record more and smaller=20 earthquakes.  To me there is some advantage to these shorter = periods, but I=20 am aware of the advantages of the longer periods as well.  On the = verticals=20 I often pick up 5+ that I don't pick up with the Lehman or = Folded, as they=20 are set for the longer period.   However when I record  a = 7M like=20 today the signal goes on for 2 and sometimes 3 hours, because of the = longer=20 period, where the vertical will record much less, maybe 30 = mins.
 
My question is where should I set the = period for=20 the best overall results?   Or is it just a personal=20 preference?
 
My second question has to do with = testing the=20 resistance or friction of various hinges.
I have seen razor blades, roller on = roller , wires,=20 figure 8 wires, foil and so on.....Has anyone tested or qualified the = different=20 using one or more of these methods?
 
I did a simple test, using various = hinges, foil,=20 wire, razor blades and eyebolts.   I could and did see some = difference=20 in how long a pendulum would swing free.  I just moved the pendulum = 6" and=20 let it go counted the cycles until it stopped.
Not very accurate, but I could see only = about 20=20 percent different, between what I would call good and better=20 hinges.
I am not suggesting this test tell the = whole=20 story.   So if there is a study I would like to see it or hear = about=20 your own testing.   I was surprised there was not a greater = different=20 on my test.
 
Thanks, Ted
Subject: When the earth shakes From: Jan Froom JDarwin@............. Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 15:52:12 -0700 Wonder if any of the Oregon PSN members are aware of this.... Jan in Gilroy *When the earth shakes* */Retired Depoe Bay geologist wants to spark interest in science among the students of Lincoln County. Her tool? Seismographs. Check out the article at /* http://thenewsguard.com/main.asp?SectionID=16&SubSectionID=16&ArticleID=6874 Wonder if any of the Oregon PSN members are aware of this....    Jan in Gilroy

When the earth shakes
Retired Depoe Bay geologist wants to spark interest in science among the students of Lincoln County.
Her tool? Seismographs.
Check out the article at  http://thenewsguard.com/main.asp?SectionID=16&SubSectionID=16&ArticleID=6874







 Subject: Re: Period and Hinges From: Brett Nordgren Brett3mr@............. Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:33:44 -0400 At 04:16 PM 8/1/2007 -0600, you wrote: >Hi All, Two new questions from me today. > > >I did a simple test, using various hinges, foil, wire, razor blades and >eyebolts. I could and did see some difference in how long a pendulum >would swing free. I just moved the pendulum 6" and let it go counted the >cycles until it stopped. >Not very accurate, but I could see only about 20 percent different, >between what I would call good and better hinges. >I am not suggesting this test tell the whole story. So if there is a >study I would like to see it or hear about your own testing. I was >surprised there was not a greater different on my test. Ted, One possibility that I have heard about in connection with high-performance pendulum clocks, is that the mounting points need to be absolutely solid. There can be a considerable loss of energy through 'mushy' supports, which might make good hinges appear to perform nearly as badly as poor ones. I would guess that a concrete wall would make a pretty solid mount, though a wood one apparently does not. Or perhaps a rigid steel frame sitting on a concrete floor might be good. Perhaps a year ago someone on the List was doing something similar and getting very long decay times, as I recall. Regards, Brett At 04:16 PM 8/1/2007 -0600, you wrote:
Hi All,    Two new questions from me today.
 
<clip>

I did a simple test, using various hinges, foil, wire, razor blades and eyebolts.   I could and did see some difference in how long a pendulum would swing free.  I just moved the pendulum 6" and let it go counted the cycles until it stopped.
Not very accurate, but I could see only about 20 percent different, between what I would call good and better hinges.
I am not suggesting this test tell the whole story.   So if there is a study I would like to see it or hear about your own testing.   I was surprised there was not a greater different on my test.

Ted,

One possibility that I have heard about in connection with high-performance pendulum clocks, is that the mounting points need to be absolutely solid.  There can be a considerable loss of energy through 'mushy' supports, which might make good hinges appear to perform nearly as badly as poor ones.

I would guess that a concrete wall would make a pretty solid mount, though a wood one apparently does not.  Or perhaps a rigid steel frame sitting on a concrete floor might be good.

Perhaps a year ago someone on the List was doing something similar and getting very long decay times, as I recall.

Regards,
Brett

Subject: Re: Where are all the 7's From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 11:39:33 +1200 tchannel1@............ wrote: > > I keep a calendar of the earthquakes I record, just to see if I am > getting the same numbers each month. > Basically the number are similar. April, 15 events, May12., June 17 > and July 19. June had a slow two weeks, but then played catch up. > This site keep a nice list http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0197840.html > > Where are all the 7's+ for the year ? History show one per month at > least. Tomorrow is month 8, which means we are about 5 behind. To > catch up we would need 10 between now and Dec. Not to mention no 8's. > > No predictions on my part, just reflecting on "Accounts Receivables" > > I think I will try to limit my downtime, for the next few months. Shhhh ... Vanuuatu is too close for comfort. -- Mark Robinson ------------- 01 Aug 1942 An earthquake of magnitude 7.1 centred in the Southern Wairarapa is felt over a wide area. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Period and Hinges From: tchannel1@............ Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 17:57:33 -0600 Brett, Thanks, that sound very logical, and something I had not = considered. Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Brett Nordgren=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 5:33 PM Subject: Re: Period and Hinges At 04:16 PM 8/1/2007 -0600, you wrote: Hi All, Two new questions from me today. =20 I did a simple test, using various hinges, foil, wire, razor blades = and eyebolts. I could and did see some difference in how long a = pendulum would swing free. I just moved the pendulum 6" and let it go = counted the cycles until it stopped. Not very accurate, but I could see only about 20 percent different, = between what I would call good and better hinges. I am not suggesting this test tell the whole story. So if there is = a study I would like to see it or hear about your own testing. I was = surprised there was not a greater different on my test. Ted, One possibility that I have heard about in connection with = high-performance pendulum clocks, is that the mounting points need to be = absolutely solid. There can be a considerable loss of energy through = 'mushy' supports, which might make good hinges appear to perform nearly = as badly as poor ones. I would guess that a concrete wall would make a pretty solid mount, = though a wood one apparently does not. Or perhaps a rigid steel frame = sitting on a concrete floor might be good. Perhaps a year ago someone on the List was doing something similar and = getting very long decay times, as I recall. Regards, Brett
Brett,  Thanks, that sound very = logical, and=20 something I had not considered.  Ted
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Brett=20 Nordgren
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, = 2007 5:33=20 PM
Subject: Re: Period and = Hinges

At 04:16 PM 8/1/2007 -0600, you wrote:
Hi=20 All,    Two new questions from me=20 today.
 
<clip>

I did a=20 simple test, using various hinges, foil, wire, razor blades and=20 eyebolts.   I could and did see some difference in how = long a=20 pendulum would swing free.  I just moved the pendulum 6" and = let it go=20 counted the cycles until it stopped.
Not=20 very accurate, but I could see only about 20 percent different, = between what=20 I would call good and better hinges.
I am=20 not suggesting this test tell the whole story.   So if = there is a=20 study I would like to see it or hear about your own = testing.   I=20 was surprised there was not a greater different on my=20 test.

Ted,

One possibility that I have = heard=20 about in connection with high-performance pendulum clocks, is that the = mounting points need to be absolutely solid.  There can be a = considerable=20 loss of energy through 'mushy' supports, which might make good hinges = appear=20 to perform nearly as badly as poor ones.

I would guess that a = concrete=20 wall would make a pretty solid mount, though a wood one apparently = does=20 not.  Or perhaps a rigid steel frame sitting on a concrete floor = might be=20 good.

Perhaps a year ago someone on the List was doing = something=20 similar and getting very long decay times, as I=20 recall.

Regards,
Brett

Subject: Re: When the earth shakes From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:43:14 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/01 23:52:49 GMT Daylight Time, JDarwin@............. writes: Wonder if any of the Oregon PSN members are aware of this.... Jan in Gilroy When the earth shakes Retired Depoe Bay geologist wants to spark interest in science among the students of Lincoln County. Her tool? Seismographs. Check out the article at http://thenewsguard.com/main.asp?SectionID=16& SubSectionID=16&ArticleID=6874 Commnet. You DON'T need a modern $600 computer - most old Pentium systerms will do! Regards, Chris In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/01 23:52:49 GMT Daylight Time, JDarwin@............. wri= tes:
Wonder if any of the Oregon PSN members are aware of this....  &nb= sp; Jan in Gilroy

When the earth shakes
Retired Depoe Bay geologist wants to spark interest in science among t= he students of Lincoln County.
Her tool? Seismographs.
Check out the article at  http://thenewsguard.com/main.asp= ?SectionID=3D16&SubSectionID=3D16&ArticleID=3D6874

       Commnet. You DON'T need a modern $600 c= omputer - most old Pentium systerms will do!

       Regards,

       Chris
 Subject: Re: Flexures, Hinges and Periods From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 22:56:10 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/01, tchannel1@............ writes: > My question is where should I set the period for the best overall results? > Or is it just a personal preference? Hi Ted, The P and S waves come in from 10 Hz down for locals, down to 2 to 0.5 Hz for teleseismic. The ocean microseisms, which you usually want to avoid, come in usually 4~7 seconds, but they may be up to ~12 secs. The Love and Rayleigh waves often come in at about 20 seconds, but they may be more than factors of 2 on either side. Download and read http://psn.quake.net/info/analysis.pdf ? > My second question has to do with testing the resistance or friction of > various hinges. > I have seen razor blades, roller on roller, wires, figure 8 wires, foil and > so on.....Has anyone tested or qualified the different using one or more of > these methods? Yes. There are several notes on psn about this. Knife blades, razor blades and points tend to fail easily and are likely to give problems / not last long / severely restrict the period obtainable. The ''knife edges'' used in chemical balances are actually 60 deg triangular rods with slightly rounded edges and are OK for loads up to 200 gm. The usual order for flexures / hinges is single wires, single foils, crossed wires and foils, ball on a plane, crossed cylinders and rolling wires or foils, in that order. This assumes that the load ratings are ~comparable. You need very rigid and massive mountings to test pendulum run down times, otherwise the mounting absorbs some of the motion energy. Note that lightly damped pendulum run down times do NOT follow the simple harmonic oscillator type of decay. There is more than a factor of 4 between the best and the worst. Balls, planes and cylinders should all be of hardened material, eg SS / WC ball bearings. When I say massive mountings, the NBS were getting 1 kg 2 second clock pendulums synchronising when mounted on a large concrete seismic plinth weighing several tens of tons. They eventually had to mount the pendulums at right angles to prevent this..... > I did a simple test, using various hinges, foil, wire, razor blades and > eyebolts. I could and did see some difference in how long a pendulum would > swing free. I just moved the pendulum 6" and let it go counted the cycles until > it stopped. > Not very accurate, but I could see only about 20 percent different, between > what I would call good and better hinges. > I am not suggesting this test tell the whole story. So if there is a study > I would like to see it or hear about your own testing. I was surprised there > was not a greater different on my test. I don't think that you can get eyebolts in a really hard corrosion resistant metal? You might be able to get EN56 SS washers? You can get type 416 shoulder bolts from www.mcmaster.com. You can buy martensitic chrome steel rod and also tungsten carbide rod. Austenitic SS is generally too soft. You can stick a SS razor or knife blade to other metals as a counterface for SS / carbide ball bearings. Use two component acrylic adhesive. BIC pens use 1 mm tungsten carbide balls, but you are limited by the load that the counterface will take. You can buy flat WC triangular tool tips for lathes. You can buy WC needle rollers, but if you want SS, you have to cut, harden and polish them yourself. You can buy solid WC drills in various sizes and use the shank end. I haven't tried tool steel, but it should be OK and it is another 'alternative' in square and round rod forms. You will probably need to grind / lapp and polish it. These dry rolling contacts need to be both very hard and highly corrosion resistant, or they won't last long. They also need to be protected from dust and dirt eg. with concentric paper / plastic tubes. Not all foil and wire flex materials ''are equal'', due to anelastic internal friction. Brass is poor. Bronze, phosphor bronze, some SS and Niobium are good. Carbon steel shim probably won't last long unless you pickle it and varnish / paint it, or Nickel plate it. You can buy Nickel plated piano wire (for Mandolins) from D'Addario down to 8 thou. As far as I know, the piano wire from Smallparts is NOT Ni plated, but do check? Hope that this gives you a rough idea of some practical considerations. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/01, tchannel1@............ writes:

My question is where should I s= et the period for the best overall results? Or is it just a personal prefere= nce?


Hi Ted,

       The P and S waves come in from 10 Hz do= wn for locals, down to 2 to 0.5 Hz for teleseismic. The ocean microseisms, w= hich you usually want to avoid, come in usually 4~7 seconds, but they may be= up to ~12 secs. The Love and Rayleigh waves often come in at about 20 secon= ds, but they may be more than factors of 2 on either side. Download and read= http://psn.quake.net/info/analysis.pdf ?

My second question has to do w= ith testing the resistance or friction of various hinges.
I have seen razor blades, roller on roller, wires, figure 8 wires, foil and= so on.....Has anyone tested or qualified the different using one or more of= these methods?


       Yes. There are several notes on psn ab= out this.

       Knife blades, razor blades and points t= end to fail easily and are likely to give problems / not last long / severel= y restrict the period obtainable.

       The ''knife edges'' used in chemical ba= lances are actually 60 deg triangular rods with slightly rounded edges and a= re OK for loads up to 200 gm.

       The usual order for flexures / hinges i= s single wires, single foils, crossed wires and foils, ball on a plane, cros= sed cylinders and rolling wires or foils, in that order. This assumes that t= he load ratings are ~comparable. You need very rigid and massive mountings t= o test pendulum run down times, otherwise the mounting absorbs some of the m= otion energy. Note that lightly damped pendulum run down times do NOT follow= the simple harmonic oscillator type of decay. There is more than a factor o= f 4 between the best and the worst. Balls, planes and cylinders should all b= e of hardened material, eg SS / WC ball bearings. When I say massive mountin= gs, the NBS were getting 1 kg 2 second clock pendulums synchronising when mo= unted on a large concrete seismic plinth weighing several tens of tons. They= eventually had to mount the pendulums at right angles to prevent this.....=20=

I did a simple test, using var= ious hinges, foil, wire, razor blades and eyebolts.  I could and did se= e some difference in how long a pendulum would swing free.  I just move= d the pendulum 6" and let it go counted the cycles until it stopped.<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" BACK=3D"#ffffff" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"= SIZE=3D3 PTSIZE=3D12 FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0">
Not very accurate, but I could see only about 20 percent different, between= what I would call good and better hinges.
I am not suggesting this test tell the whole story.  So if there is a=20= study I would like to see it or hear about your own testing.  I was sur= prised there was not a greater different on my test.


       I don't think that you can get eyebolts= in a really hard corrosion resistant metal? You might be able to get= EN56 SS washers? You can get type 416 shoulder bolts from www.mcmaster.com.= You can buy martensitic chrome steel rod and also tungsten carbide rod. Aus= tenitic SS is generally too soft. You can stick a SS razor or knife blade to= other metals as a counterface for SS / carbide ball bearings. Use two compo= nent acrylic adhesive. BIC pens use 1 mm tungsten carbide balls, but you are= limited by the load that the counterface will take. You can buy flat WC tri= angular tool tips for lathes. You can buy WC needle rollers, but if you want= SS, you have to cut, harden and polish them yourself. You can buy solid WC=20= drills in various sizes and use the shank end. I haven't tried tool steel, b= ut it should be OK and it is another 'alternative' in square and round rod f= orms. You will probably need to grind / lapp and polish it. These dry rollin= g contacts need to be both very hard and highly corrosion resistant, or they= won't last long. They also need to be protected from dust and dirt eg. with= concentric paper / plastic tubes.

       Not all foil and wire flex materials ''= are equal'', due to anelastic internal friction. Brass is poor. Bronze, phos= phor bronze, some SS and Niobium are good. Carbon steel shim probably won't=20= last long unless you pickle it and varnish / paint it, or Nickel plate it. Y= ou can buy Nickel plated piano wire (for Mandolins) from D'Addario down to 8= thou. As far as I know, the piano wire from Smallparts is NOT Ni plated, bu= t do check?

       Hope that this gives you a rough idea o= f some practical considerations.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: bridge collapse From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 10:07:24 -0500 How far away was the bridge collapse in Minneapolis-St Paul detected? Anyone know? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: bridge collapse From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 08:55:22 -0700 Not too far....If the University of Minnesota has a seismometer, it does not have a public link. It appears that the three closest stations are part of the US Array and are Ann Arbor, MI, Ely, MN, and Sioux Falls, SD. When the twin towers went down on 9/11, the impact of the airplanes and subsequent collapses were recorded at the PAL site, about 30 miles north. I don't know the weight of the bridge that collapsed or each of the twin towers, but I imagine that the towers were significantly heaver. Bob Hancock -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Thomas Dick Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 08:07 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: bridge collapse How far away was the bridge collapse in Minneapolis-St Paul detected? Anyone know? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: More Folded Pictures From: tchannel1@............ Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2007 22:08:33 -0600 Hi folks, I am still learning how to post picture. They are looking = better. If you are interesting in the Folded Pendulum modifications and = details, I added more picts to http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 = the lasted pictures in that Album are those with no captions. Please = notice the linkage now come to rest at 90 degrees, the older,captioned = pictures show it favoring the Right hand side by 10 degrees? The .010" = wires are now visible in one of the pictures. You might also notice the = mass is now much closer to the center line, with both pendulums near = vertical. Thanks for all of your help..........Special thanks to Chris for trying = to improve my linkage issues. The picture do show some improvements, but most of the modifications = can't be seen. It is much better then it was, so I will keep on = it...........Ted
Hi folks,  I am still learning how = to post=20 picture.  They are looking better.  If you are interesting in = the=20 Folded Pendulum modifications and details, I added more picts to = http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33  the lasted pictures in that Album are those with no=20 captions.  Please notice the linkage now come to rest at 90 = degrees, the=20 older,captioned pictures show it favoring the Right hand side by 10=20 degrees?  The .010" wires are now visible = in one of=20 the pictures.  You might also notice the mass is now much closer to = the=20 center line, with both pendulums near vertical.
 
 
Thanks for all of your = help..........Special thanks=20 to Chris for trying to improve my linkage issues.
 
The picture do show some improvements, = but most of=20 the modifications can't be seen.   It is much better then it = was, so I=20 will keep on it...........Ted
Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2007 08:33:44 -0700 Nice pictures. How was the box constructed? How do you get into the box? Does the front lift up or side up or something? Thanks, John At 09:08 PM 8/3/2007, you wrote: >Hi folks, I am still learning how to post picture. They are >looking better. If you are interesting in the Folded Pendulum >modifications and details, I added more picts to >http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 >the lasted pictures in that Album are those with no >captions. Please notice the linkage now come to rest at 90 degrees, >the older,captioned pictures show it favoring the Right hand side by >10 degrees? The .010" wires are now visible in one of the >pictures. You might also notice the mass is now much closer to the >center line, with both pendulums near vertical. > > >Thanks for all of your help..........Special thanks to Chris for >trying to improve my linkage issues. > >The picture do show some improvements, but most of the modifications >can't be seen. It is much better then it was, so I will keep on >it...........Ted __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2007 13:14:19 -0600 Hi John, In the pictures, the front of the box is open, I will cover it with a piece of Plexiglas, with removable screws. The box Melamine, 3/4" cabinet material, with a face frame and back to make it as stiff as possible. Thanks, Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lahr" To: Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2007 9:33 AM Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures > Nice pictures. > > How was the box constructed? How do you get into the box? Does the front > lift up or side up or something? > > Thanks, > John > > At 09:08 PM 8/3/2007, you wrote: >>Hi folks, I am still learning how to post picture. They are looking >>better. If you are interesting in the Folded Pendulum modifications and >>details, I added more picts to >>http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 >>the lasted pictures in that Album are those with no captions. Please >>notice the linkage now come to rest at 90 degrees, the older,captioned >>pictures show it favoring the Right hand side by 10 degrees? The .010" >>wires are now visible in one of the pictures. You might also notice the >>mass is now much closer to the center line, with both pendulums near >>vertical. >> >> >>Thanks for all of your help..........Special thanks to Chris for trying to >>improve my linkage issues. >> >>The picture do show some improvements, but most of the modifications can't >>be seen. It is much better then it was, so I will keep on >>it...........Ted > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 09:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Ted How did you change the sensor period? I assume you moved the position of the mass rather than changing the pendulum lengths. Regards Barry tchannel1@............ wrote: Hi folks, I am still learning how to post picture. They are looking better. If you are interesting in the Folded Pendulum modifications and details, I added more picts to http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 the lasted pictures in that Album are those with no captions. Please notice the linkage now come to rest at 90 degrees, the older,captioned pictures show it favoring the Right hand side by 10 degrees? The .010" wires are now visible in one of the pictures. You might also notice the mass is now much closer to the center line, with both pendulums near vertical. Thanks for all of your help..........Special thanks to Chris for trying to improve my linkage issues. The picture do show some improvements, but most of the modifications can't be seen. It is much better then it was, so I will keep on it...........Ted
Ted
   How did you change the sensor period? I assume you moved the position of the mass rather than changing the pendulum lengths.
Regards
Barry


tchannel1@............ wrote:
Hi folks,  I am still learning how to post picture.  They are looking better.  If you are interesting in the Folded Pendulum modifications and details, I added more picts to http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33  the lasted pictures in that Album are those with no captions.  Please notice the linkage now come to rest at 90 degrees, the older,captioned pictures show it favoring the Right hand side by 10 degrees?  The .010" wires are now visible in one of the pictures.  You might also notice the mass is now much closer to the center line, with both pendulums near vertical.
 
 
Thanks for all of your help..........Special thanks to Chris for trying to improve my linkage issues.
 
The picture do show some improvements, but most of the modifications can't be seen.   It is much better then it was, so I will keep on it...........Ted

Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures From: tchannel1@............ Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 13:18:15 -0600 Hello Barry and All, I made another modification today, I simplified = the method for removing and installing the damper magnet. But that's a = minor thing. =20 All day I have been tweaking the period, touchy, touchy. Here is the latest: With the damper removed, of course, I ONCE got 22 = seconds, another time I got 20. I know little about this linkage, however I know a heck of a lot more = than I did to start with. The pendulum length, that which actually = moves is 7.625" very short indeed. I was self-limited by the box size = 32x24x10, I just picked a number, not too big not too little. I could = have made it taller, and if I had it to do over I would have made it = 32x48 x12. The reason, is a 7.625" pendulum natural period is .888 = seconds. (not sure of the math) and in my mockups I was getting x10 = that period, say 9 seconds. I repeated the mockup using different = pendulums lengths and hinges. I could rely on this x10 figure with very = little trouble or effort. I did a 42" pendulum and got 20 seconds. ( = that box would have been to large) as it would need to be twice the = 42",+. But I think my box is somewhat limited. With this linkage I can get (9 to 12 very stable), (12 to 15 unstable, = but maybe workable) and (15 to 22 seconds, very unstable. Presently I = think it is set for 14? Unless I can make improvements, and I am = trying, that may be the max. Again a redo, using a 32x48x12 would change the period to perhaps 28 = seconds. Knowing what I do now I could make it simpler and better. To bad I out = of money. Now Barry, to answer your question, To set it up and to adjust the = period, I do this. 1 level the base. 2.square the linkage, make sure the pieces are 90 degrees. 3 remove the damper 4 move the large mass to near the center of the arm. 5 at this point the linkage still should be square and the Inverted = pendulum pointing at 12:00 6 move the large mass toward the inverted pendulum ( the one on the = left) until the linkage collapse and then back it off 7 move the medium mass to the left,until the linkage collapse and then = back it off 8 do the same with the smallest mass/wing nut. 9 after each movement tweak the pitch of the box using the forward = centering adj leg. until the Inverted pendulum returns to 12:00 10 as the period increases the arc of stability get smaller and smaller, = from about 3" down to 1" 11 at the longer periods all the adjustments get smaller and smaller. 12 The important thing is you need to adj. the pitch and the mass, not = just one or the other. DO ONE THEN THE OTHER. 13 Get the highest number you can, then install the damper. 14 Check the damper and adjust if necessary. 15 I found it sometimes,necessary at this point to once again adjust the = pitch, just in front of collapse. Just enough to be reliable. It is up and running now, and I will post as TCIDF. It this point I = really don't know where the period is, my guess it 12 to 14 seconds. I = hope to read the FFT and look for surface wave on the recordings. If anyone is interest in building one, I would encourage you to do so. = It has been fun and interesting. Please do contact me and I will share = all my notes, and a list of what I would do different, and the same. Thanks, Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Barry Lotz=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 10:21 AM Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures Ted How did you change the sensor period? I assume you moved the = position of the mass rather than changing the pendulum lengths. Regards Barry tchannel1@............ wrote: Hi folks, I am still learning how to post picture. They are = looking better. If you are interesting in the Folded Pendulum = modifications and details, I added more picts to = http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33 the lasted pictures in that = Album are those with no captions. Please notice the linkage now come to = rest at 90 degrees, the older,captioned pictures show it favoring the = Right hand side by 10 degrees? The .010" wires are now visible in one = of the pictures. You might also notice the mass is now much closer to = the center line, with both pendulums near vertical. Thanks for all of your help..........Special thanks to Chris for = trying to improve my linkage issues. The picture do show some improvements, but most of the modifications = can't be seen. It is much better then it was, so I will keep on = it...........Ted
Hello Barry and All,  I made = another=20 modification today, I simplified the method for removing and installing = the=20 damper magnet.  But that's a minor = thing.   
 
 All day I have been tweaking the = period,=20 touchy, touchy.
Here is the latest:  With the = damper removed,=20 of course, I ONCE  got 22 seconds, another time I got=20 20.
I know little about this linkage, = however I know a=20 heck of a lot more than I did to start with.  The pendulum length, = that=20 which actually moves is 7.625"  very short indeed.  I was = self-limited=20 by the box size 32x24x10, I just picked a number, not too big not too=20 little.  I could have made it taller, and if I had it to do over I = would=20 have made it 32x48 x12.  The reason, is a 7.625" pendulum natural = period is=20 ..888 seconds.  (not sure of the math) and in my mockups I was = getting x10=20 that period, say 9 seconds.   I repeated the mockup using = different=20 pendulums lengths and hinges.  I could rely on this x10 figure with = very=20 little trouble or effort.   I did a 42" pendulum and got 20 = seconds. (=20 that box would have been to large)  as it would need to = be twice=20 the 42",+.      But I think my box is = somewhat limited.
 
With this linkage I can get (9 = to 12 very=20 stable), (12 to 15 unstable, but maybe workable) and (15 to = 22 seconds,=20 very unstable.  Presently I think it is set for 14?  Unless I = can make=20 improvements, and I am trying, that may be the max.
Again a redo, using a 32x48x12 would = change the=20 period to perhaps 28 seconds.
 
Knowing what I do now I could make it = simpler and=20 better.  To bad I out of money.
 
Now Barry, to answer your = question,  To set it=20 up and to adjust the period, I do this.
1 level the base.
2.square the linkage, make sure the = pieces are 90=20 degrees.
3 remove the damper
4 move the large mass to near the = center of the=20 arm.
5 at this point the linkage still = should be square=20 and the Inverted pendulum pointing at 12:00
6 move the large mass toward the = inverted pendulum=20 ( the one on the left) until the linkage collapse and then back it=20 off
7 move the medium mass to the = left,until the=20 linkage collapse and then back it off
8 do the same with the smallest = mass/wing=20 nut.
9 after each movement tweak the pitch = of the box=20 using the forward centering adj leg. until the Inverted pendulum returns = to=20 12:00
10 as the period increases the arc of = stability get=20 smaller and smaller, from about 3" down to 1"
11 at the longer periods all the = adjustments get=20 smaller and smaller.
12 The important thing is you need to = adj. the=20 pitch and the mass, not just one or the other.  DO ONE=20 THEN THE OTHER.
13  Get the highest number you = can, then=20 install the damper.
14  Check the damper and adjust if = necessary.
15 I found it sometimes,necessary at = this point to=20 once again adjust the pitch, just in front of collapse.  Just = enough to be=20 reliable.
 
It is up and running now, and I will = post as=20 TCIDF.   It this point I really don't know where the period = is, my=20 guess it 12 to 14 seconds.  I hope to read the FFT and look for = surface=20 wave on the recordings.
 
If anyone is interest in building one, = I would=20 encourage you to do so.  It has been fun and interesting.  = Please do=20 contact me and I will share all my notes, and a list of what I would do=20 different, and the same.
 
Thanks, Ted
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Barry=20 Lotz
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2007 = 10:21=20 AM
Subject: Re: More Folded = Pictures

Ted
   How did you change the sensor period? I assume you = moved the=20 position of the mass rather than changing the pendulum lengths.
Regards
Barry


tchannel1@............= =20 wrote:
Hi folks,  I am still learning = how to post=20 picture.  They are looking better.  If you are interesting = in the=20 Folded Pendulum modifications and details, I added more picts to = http://picasaweb.google.com/tchannel33  the lasted pictures in that Album are those with = no=20 captions.  Please notice the linkage now come to rest at 90 = degrees,=20 the older,captioned pictures show it favoring the Right hand side by = 10=20 degrees?  The .010" wires are now = visible in=20 one of the pictures.  You might also notice the mass is now = much closer=20 to the center line, with both pendulums near = vertical.
 
 
Thanks for all of your = help..........Special=20 thanks to Chris for trying to improve my linkage = issues.
 
The picture do show some = improvements, but most=20 of the modifications can't be seen.   It is much better = then it=20 was, so I will keep on=20 it...........Ted

= Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 15:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Ted Do you think the sensor position is very sensitive to ground tilt like a lehman when it's near the unstable point (long period )? Do you know of and references which describe the mathematics, and if maybe unequal legs is of importance, mass size etc? I have been looking on Google. I like the design. I think I would like to build one also. Regards Barry
Ted
  Do you think the sensor position is very sensitive to ground tilt like a lehman when it's near the unstable point (long period )?  Do you know of and references which describe the mathematics, and if maybe unequal legs is of importance, mass size etc?  I have been looking on Google. I like the design. I think I would like to build one also.
Regards
Barry
Subject: Re: More Folded Pictures From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 21:48:56 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/05, barry_lotz@............. writes: > Do you think the sensor position is very sensitive to ground tilt like a > Lehman when it's near the unstable point (long period)? Hi Barry, That is correct. The principle is the same, whether you reduce the centring force by reducing the angle of the suspension axis, or by balancing out the lateral pendulum forces. The main consideration is the period extension ratio, between the adjusted pendulum and that you would get from a simple vertical pendulum of the same dimensions. A period ratio of x10 is fairly easily achieved. Ratios of more than x20 require very good suspensions, a rigid frame and careful adjustment. Not particularly difficult, but a bit more advanced / better engineered than the original 1976 Lehman concept. I suggest that you use NdFeB magnetic damping and a copper damping blade. You can adjust the damping by choosing the thickness of the damping blade, varying how much of the copper blade is covered by the damping magnets and by varying the separation of the magnet poles. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/05, barry_lotz@............. writes:

Do you think the sensor positio= n is very sensitive to ground tilt like a Lehman when it's near the unstable= point (long period)?


Hi Barry,

       That is correct. The principle is the s= ame, whether you reduce the centring force by reducing the angle of the susp= ension axis, or by balancing out the lateral pendulum forces. The main consi= deration is the period extension ratio, between the adjusted pendulum and th= at you would get from a simple vertical pendulum of the same dimensions.
       A period ratio of x10 is fairly easily=20= achieved. Ratios of more than x20 require very good suspensions, a rigid fra= me and careful adjustment. Not particularly difficult, but a bit more advanc= ed / better engineered than the original 1976 Lehman concept.

       I suggest that you use NdFeB magnetic d= amping and a copper damping blade. You can adjust the damping by choosing th= e thickness of  the damping blade, varying how much of the copper blade= is covered by the damping magnets and by varying the separation of the magn= et poles.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Please, read this Earthquake ? Give me your opinion ? From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2007 19:24:12 -0700 Hello PSN, Would one of you be so kind as to load this data into your WQ program and send me an honest opinion of how YOU read it. I am never sure I am reading these things right. The charts the USGS sent me never seem to agree but then I can never tell how deep these things are happening. Thanks. Regards; geoff *********** CUT HERE Copy / Paste to gva.psn or *.psn.txt ****************** ! PSN ASCII Event File Format 2.0 Start Time: 2007/05/08 21:58:41.000 Start Time Offset: 0 Number of Samples: 1638 SPS: 18.2056 Comment: Regional at 138 Statute Miles s-p 24.7sec Data Minimum: -83.4945 Data Maximum: 66.5055 Data Mean: 0.0280135 ! Sensor Information: Sensor Location: Apache Junction, AZ, USA Sensor Latitude: 33.4214 Sensor Longitude: -111.575 Sensor Elevation: 507.5 Sensor Orientation: Z Sensor Incident: 0 Sensor Azimuth: -12345 Pick Information: 2007/05/08,21:59:01.941,P,2,838,,33 Pick Information: 2007/05/08,21:59:26.641,S,2,831,,33 Data: -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 -0.438478 -1.43848 -2.43848 -1.43848 -1.43848 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -1.43848 -2.43848 -2.43848 -2.43848 -0.438478 0.561522 0.561522 1.56152 0.561522 -0.438478 -1.43848 -2.43848 -2.43848 -1.43848 -0.438478 0.561522 1.56152 2.56152 2.56152 2.56152 1.56152 1.56152 0.561522 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -1.43848 -1.43848 -1.43848 -0.438478 1.56152 2.56152 3.56152 3.56152 2.56152 1.56152 1.56152 1.56152 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 1.56152 1.56152 0.561522 0.561522 -0.438478 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4.56152 1.56152 -1.43848 -4.43848 -5.43848 -6.43848 -5.43848 -4.43848 -1.43848 1.56152 3.56152 3.56152 2.56152 0.561522 -1.43848 -2.43848 -1.43848 0.561522 3.56152 5.56152 6.56152 5.56152 1.56152 -2.43848 -5.43848 -5.43848 -4.43848 -2.43848 -1.43848 -0.438478 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 0.561522 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 -0.438478 1.56152 3.56152 6.56152 9.56152 11.5615 10.5615 7.56152 3.56152 -1.43848 -5.43848 -6.43848 -4.43848 -1.43848 0.561522 2.56152 1.56152 -0.438478 -2.43848 -4.43848 -5.43848 -4.43848 -1.43848 1.56152 5.56152 9.56152 11.5615 10.5615 6.56152 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Please, read this Earthquake ? Give me your opinion ? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 02:39:39 +0000 Hi This is a earthquake that is close to ~250 km away from your station. The p and s wave patterns are obivius in the signal. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Please, read this Earthquake ? Give me your opinion ? From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:02:00 -0700 Hi Geoff, Where did this event come from? Why this time interval? Is it really from May 8, 2007, or are there some numbers reversed, and it's really from August 5, 2007? Where do you think it's located? The only event I could find in the USGS catalog that might correspond from last May is this one: =20 [Global search for events on May 8, 2007.] PDE-W 2007 05 08 214230.56 -19.30 -179.19 627 4.50 mb GS .. . ....... but mb 4.5 is pretty small for this distance. Using the on-line travel time calculator, the expected arrival times would= be: The seismogram provided does not include enough time to see which of these phases might have been recorded. Travel Times to YOUR Seismic Station Based on the information that you submitted: * Station Coordinates : 33.4213982 -111.574997 * Earthquake Latitude and Longitude: -19.2999992 -179.190002 * Earthquake Depth (km): 627. * Earthquake Time: 21 42 31 * Earthquake Magnitude: 4.5 * Compute travel times for all branches * Expected 1s period body wave=20 amplitude [ 1.39E-02 =B5m] [ 8.73E-02 =B5m/s] * * * Delta Azimuth (degrees clockwise from north) * (deg) eq-to-station station-to-eq * 83.07 51.2 241.6 * travel arrival time * # code time(s) dy hr mn sec * 1 P 681.33 0 21 53 52 * 2 PcP 684.05 0 21 53 55 * 3 pP 812.90 0 21 56 3 * 4 sP 876.13 0 21 57 7 * 5 PP 884.09 0 21 57 15 * 6 PKiKP 993.96 0 21 59 4 * 7 pPKiKP 1138.21 0 22 1 29 * 8 SKiKP 1149.38 0 22 1 40 * 9 sPKiKP 1198.18 0 22 2 29 * 10 SKSac 1243.10 0 22 3 14 * 11 SKKSac 1249.57 0 22 3 20 * 12 S 1250.43 0 22 3 21 * 13 ScS 1259.26 0 22 3 30 * 14 SPn 1307.54 0 22 4 18 * 15 pSKSac 1429.50 0 22 6 20 * 16 sS 1485.73 0 22 7 16 * 17 sSKSac 1495.76 0 22 7 26 * 18 SS 1594.65 0 22 9 5 * 19 PKKPdf 1769.15 0 22 12 0 * 20 PKKPbc 1777.53 0 22 12 8 * 21 SKKPdf 1924.70 0 22 14 35 * 22 SKKPbc 1935.96 0 22 14 46 * 23 PKKSdf 1984.69 0 22 15 35 * 24 PKKSbc 1996.20 0 22 15 47 * 25 SKKSdf 2140.03 0 22 18 11 At 07:24 PM 8/5/2007, you wrote: >Hello PSN, > >Would one of you be so kind as to >load this data into your WQ program >and send me an honest opinion >of how YOU read it. >I am never sure I am reading these things right. >The charts the USGS sent me never seem >to agree but then I can never tell how >deep these things are happening. > >Thanks. > >Regards; >geoff > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Mine collaspe or Earthquake From: tchannel1@............ Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:30:17 -0600 Hi Folks, I would like your opinion on the event. 070806.084840 4.0 = Utah First report on the news was it was an Earthquake, next report it was no = Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one caused the other. I don't know enough about mine collapse. Channel 2 News in Boise would = like your opinion. Thanks, Ted
Hi Folks,  I would like your = opinion on the=20 event.  070806.084840   4.0 Utah
 
First report on the news was it was an = Earthquake,=20 next report it was no Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one = caused=20 the other.
 
I don't know enough about mine=20 collapse.   Channel 2 News in Boise would like your=20 opinion.
 
Thanks, Ted
Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:36:54 -0500 Ted, I do not think a mine collapse would cause seismometer reading 1700-1800 km away, or farther. We'll see if other stations recorded the event, as people come home tonight from work etc. I personally believe the EQ cause the collapse. That is what is being reported on the national news services. Regards, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: tchannel1@............ To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 3:30 PM Subject: Mine collapse or Earthquake Hi Folks, I would like your opinion on the event. 070806.084840 4.0 Utah First report on the news was it was an Earthquake, next report it was no Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one caused the other. I don't know enough about mine collapse. Channel 2 News in Boise would like your opinion. Thanks, Ted
Ted, I do not think a mine collapse would cause seismometer reading = 1700-1800 km away, or farther.  We'll see if other stations = recorded the=20 event, as people come home tonight from work etc.
 
I personally believe the EQ cause the collapse.  That is what = is being=20 reported on the national news services.
Regards,
Jerry
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: tchannel1@............
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: Mine collapse or Earthquake

Hi Folks,  I would like your = opinion on the=20 event.  070806.084840   4.0 Utah
 
First report on the news was it was an = Earthquake,=20 next report it was no Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one = caused=20 the other.
 
I don't know enough about mine=20 collapse.   Channel 2 News in Boise would like your=20 opinion.
 
Thanks, Ted
Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:14:52 +0000 Hi There have been instances of there mines did trigger earthquakes, some up to mag 5.0. Once such insdent was recorded in South Africa few years ago. However, I can't tell in this case. USGS has listed this earthquake, http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/uu00007535.php#detai= ls Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:20:05 -0700 Yes, those mines are diamond mines typically very dangerous work because of a thing called Rock Bursts and a rock burst itself might appear as a 3 or so earthquake. They are very deep hot dangerous misearable work from what i understand for those diamond miners. It is not uncommon for miners to die that way in South Africa. Here in Arizona they (Miners) even talk about Rock Bursts but i think they are worse the deeper you mine. I do not know of any Arizona Mines over a mile deep like they have in South Africa. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jón Frímann" To: Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake Hi There have been instances of there mines did trigger earthquakes, some up to mag 5.0. Once such insdent was recorded in South Africa few years ago. However, I can't tell in this case. USGS has listed this earthquake, http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/uu00007535.php#details Regards. -- Jón Frímann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:45:48 +0000 Hi BBC News has a intresting story about this insdent, also some information on other related incdents like this one. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6933790.stm Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: closed loop folded pendulum From: Barry Lotz barry_lotz@............. Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Hi Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is old. regards barry
Hi
   Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is old.
regards
barry
 
Subject: Re: closed loop folded pendulum From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:10:45 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/07, barry_lotz@............. writes: > Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the > components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor > properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 > but his address is old. Hi Barry, See http://jclahr.com/science/psn/youden/index.html There is a complete design of both the mechanical construction and circuits for the electronics. Dave Youden can now be found at dyouden@............. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/07, barry_lotz@............. writes:

   Does anyone know w= here I could find the math for the sizing the components for a possible clos= ed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to e= mail Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is ol= d.


Hi Barry,

       See http://jclahr.com/science/psn/youde= n/index.html
       There is a complete design of both the=20= mechanical construction and circuits for the electronics.

       Dave Youden can now be found at dyouden@.............

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
 Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 From: "Randy" rpratt@............. Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 17:47:00 -0500 Hi All, Concerning the mine collapse, would not a collapse give the same initial direction of motion in all directions from the event whereas a quake would create opposite motion on either side of rupture? I have something on my NS horizontal near the time that seems to build more slowly than a typical P wave and is initially north down in tilt or southerly motion. I'm at 1200 km from the event. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 02:00 Subject: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Mine collaspe or Earthquake > From: > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:30:17 -0600 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7D836.4F964430 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi Folks, I would like your opinion on the event. 070806.084840 4.0 = > Utah > > First report on the news was it was an Earthquake, next report it was no = > Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one caused the other. > > I don't know enough about mine collapse. Channel 2 News in Boise would = > like your opinion. > > Thanks, Ted > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7D836.4F964430 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Hi Folks,  I would like your = > opinion on the=20 > event.  070806.084840   4.0 Utah
>
 
>
First report on the news was it was an = > Earthquake,=20 > next report it was no Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one = > caused=20 > the other.
>
 
>
I don't know enough about mine=20 > collapse.   Channel 2 News in Boise would like your=20 > opinion.
>
 
>
Thanks, Ted
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7D836.4F964430-- > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 2 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake > From: "Jerry Payton" > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:36:54 -0500 > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > > ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7D83F.9D8C10D0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Ted, I do not think a mine collapse would cause seismometer reading > 1700-1800 km away, or farther. We'll see if other stations recorded the > event, as people come home tonight from work etc. > > I personally believe the EQ cause the collapse. That is what is being > reported on the national news services. > Regards, > Jerry > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: tchannel1@............ > To: psn-l@.............. > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 3:30 PM > Subject: Mine collapse or Earthquake > > > Hi Folks, I would like your opinion on the event. 070806.084840 4.0 Utah > > First report on the news was it was an Earthquake, next report it was no > Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one caused the other. > > I don't know enough about mine collapse. Channel 2 News in Boise would > like your opinion. > > Thanks, Ted > > ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7D83F.9D8C10D0 > Content-Type: text/html; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > > > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> > > > > >
Ted, I do not think a mine collapse would cause seismometer reading = > > 1700-1800 km away, or farther.  We'll see if other stations = > recorded the=20 > event, as people come home tonight from work etc.
>
 
>
I personally believe the EQ cause the collapse.  That is what = > is being=20 > reported on the national news services.
>
Regards,
>
Jerry
>
 
>
 
>
----- Original Message -----=20 >
From: title=3Dtchannel1@............... > href=3D"mailto:tchannel1@............">tchannel1@............
> >
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 3:30 PM
>
Subject: Mine collapse or Earthquake
>

>
Hi Folks,  I would like your = > opinion on the=20 > event.  070806.084840   4.0 Utah
>
 
>
First report on the news was it was an = > Earthquake,=20 > next report it was no Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one = > caused=20 > the other.
>
 
>
I don't know enough about mine=20 > collapse.   Channel 2 News in Boise would like your=20 > opinion.
>
 
>
Thanks, Ted
> > ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7D83F.9D8C10D0-- > > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 3 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake > From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= > Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:14:52 +0000 > > Hi > > There have been instances of there mines did trigger earthquakes, some > up to mag 5.0. Once such insdent was recorded in South Africa few years > ago. However, I can't tell in this case. > > USGS has listed this earthquake, > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/uu00007535.php#detai= > ls > > Regards. > > --=20 > J=F3n Fr=EDmann > http://www.jonfr.com > http://earthquakes.jonfr.com > http://www.net303.net > http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 4 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake > From: "Geoff" > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:20:05 -0700 > > Yes, those mines are diamond mines > typically very dangerous work because > of a thing called Rock Bursts and > a rock burst itself might appear as a 3 > or so earthquake. > They are very deep hot dangerous misearable work > from what i understand for those diamond miners. > It is not uncommon for miners to die that way > in South Africa. Here in Arizona they (Miners) > even talk about Rock Bursts > but i think they are worse the deeper you mine. > I do not know of any Arizona Mines over a mile deep > like they have in South Africa. > > Regards; > geoff > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jón Frímann" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:14 PM > Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake > > > Hi > > There have been instances of there mines did trigger earthquakes, some > up to mag 5.0. Once such insdent was recorded in South Africa few years > ago. However, I can't tell in this case. > > USGS has listed this earthquake, > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/uu00007535.php#details > > Regards. > > -- > Jón Frímann > http://www.jonfr.com > http://earthquakes.jonfr.com > http://www.net303.net > http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 5 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake > From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= > Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:45:48 +0000 > > Hi > > BBC News has a intresting story about this insdent, also some > information on other related incdents like this one. > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6933790.stm > > Regards. > --=20 > J=F3n Fr=EDmann > http://www.jonfr.com > http://earthquakes.jonfr.com > http://www.net303.net > http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 6 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: closed loop folded pendulum > From: Barry Lotz > Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:07:55 -0700 (PDT) > > --0-1607043524-1186456075=:29596 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > Hi > Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is old. > regards > barry > > > --0-1607043524-1186456075=:29596 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > >
Hi
   Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is old.
regards
barry
 
> --0-1607043524-1186456075=:29596-- > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 7 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: closed loop folded pendulum > From: ChrisAtUpw@....... > Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:10:45 EDT > > > --part1_d45.fa8650d.33e94ac5_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 2007/08/07, barry_lotz@............. writes: > > > Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the > > components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor > > properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 > > but his address is old. > > Hi Barry, > > See http://jclahr.com/science/psn/youden/index.html > There is a complete design of both the mechanical construction and > circuits for the electronics. > > Dave Youden can now be found at dyouden@............. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > > > --part1_d45.fa8650d.33e94ac5_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > In a me= > ssage dated 2007/08/07, barry_lotz@............. writes:
>
>
: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">   Does anyone know w= > here I could find the math for the sizing the components for a possible clos= > ed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to e= > mail Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is ol= > d.

>
> Hi Barry,
>
>        See http://jclahr.com/science/psn/youde= > n/index.html
>        There is a complete design of both the=20= > mechanical construction and circuits for the electronics.
>
>        Dave Youden can now be found at =3D"mailto:dyouden@.............">dyouden@.............
>
>        Regards,
>
>        Chris Chapman
> > > --part1_d45.fa8650d.33e94ac5_boundary-- > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 11:22:30 -0700 OBSERVATION ONLY; Not a crticism. Capabilities and Limitations of any amateur. It seems unlikely to me that an amatur has the abilities to build scientific equipment with the abilities to properly recreate the actual ground motion. There are phase relationships involved that are\very difficult to properly record after passing through complex filter circuits. The best we can hope to achieve are things like first time of arrival and relative energy content. But the faithful recreation of ground motion seems almost impossible to me based upon personal experiences. Heck, Im just happy to be able to know this wave is passing under and through me right about now. Regards; geoff gva ----- Original Message ----- From: "Randy" To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 3:47 PM Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 > Hi All, > > Concerning the mine collapse, would not a collapse give the same initial > direction of motion in all directions from the event whereas a quake would > create opposite motion on either side of rupture? I have something on my NS > horizontal near the time that seems to build more slowly than a typical P > wave and is initially north down in tilt or southerly motion. I'm at 1200 > km from the event. > > Randy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 02:00 > Subject: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 > > >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 1 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Mine collaspe or Earthquake >> From: >> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 14:30:17 -0600 >> >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >> ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7D836.4F964430 >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> Hi Folks, I would like your opinion on the event. 070806.084840 4.0 = >> Utah >> >> First report on the news was it was an Earthquake, next report it was no = >> Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one caused the other. >> >> I don't know enough about mine collapse. Channel 2 News in Boise would = >> like your opinion. >> >> Thanks, Ted >> ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7D836.4F964430 >> Content-Type: text/html; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> >> > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> >> >> >> >> >>
Hi Folks,  I would like your = >> opinion on the=20 >> event.  070806.084840   4.0 Utah
>>
 
>>
First report on the news was it was an = >> Earthquake,=20 >> next report it was no Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one = >> caused=20 >> the other.
>>
 
>>
I don't know enough about mine=20 >> collapse.   Channel 2 News in Boise would like your=20 >> opinion.
>>
 
>>
Thanks, Ted
>> >> ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7D836.4F964430-- >> >> >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 2 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake >> From: "Jerry Payton" >> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:36:54 -0500 >> >> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. >> >> ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7D83F.9D8C10D0 >> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> Ted, I do not think a mine collapse would cause seismometer reading >> 1700-1800 km away, or farther. We'll see if other stations recorded the >> event, as people come home tonight from work etc. >> >> I personally believe the EQ cause the collapse. That is what is being >> reported on the national news services. >> Regards, >> Jerry >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: tchannel1@............ >> To: psn-l@.............. >> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 3:30 PM >> Subject: Mine collapse or Earthquake >> >> >> Hi Folks, I would like your opinion on the event. 070806.084840 4.0 > Utah >> >> First report on the news was it was an Earthquake, next report it was no >> Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one caused the other. >> >> I don't know enough about mine collapse. Channel 2 News in Boise would >> like your opinion. >> >> Thanks, Ted >> >> ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7D83F.9D8C10D0 >> Content-Type: text/html; >> charset="iso-8859-1" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> >> > charset=3Diso-8859-1"> >> >> >> >> >>
Ted, I do not think a mine collapse would cause seismometer reading = >> >> 1700-1800 km away, or farther.  We'll see if other stations = >> recorded the=20 >> event, as people come home tonight from work etc.
>>
 
>>
I personally believe the EQ cause the collapse.  That is what = >> is being=20 >> reported on the national news services.
>>
Regards,
>>
Jerry
>>
 
>>
 
>>
----- Original Message -----=20 >>
From: > title=3Dtchannel1@............... >> href=3D"mailto:tchannel1@............">tchannel1@............
>> >>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 3:30 PM
>>
Subject: Mine collapse or Earthquake
>>

>>
Hi Folks,  I would like your = >> opinion on the=20 >> event.  070806.084840   4.0 Utah
>>
 
>>
First report on the news was it was an = >> Earthquake,=20 >> next report it was no Earthquake but a mine collapse, third report one = >> caused=20 >> the other.
>>
 
>>
I don't know enough about mine=20 >> collapse.   Channel 2 News in Boise would like your=20 >> opinion.
>>
 
>>
Thanks, Ted
>> >> ------=_NextPart_000_004B_01C7D83F.9D8C10D0-- >> >> >> >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 3 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake >> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= >> Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:14:52 +0000 >> >> Hi >> >> There have been instances of there mines did trigger earthquakes, some >> up to mag 5.0. Once such insdent was recorded in South Africa few years >> ago. However, I can't tell in this case. >> >> USGS has listed this earthquake, >> > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/uu00007535.php#detai= >> ls >> >> Regards. >> >> --=20 >> J=F3n Fr=EDmann >> http://www.jonfr.com >> http://earthquakes.jonfr.com >> http://www.net303.net >> http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ >> >> >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 4 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake >> From: "Geoff" >> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 15:20:05 -0700 >> >> Yes, those mines are diamond mines >> typically very dangerous work because >> of a thing called Rock Bursts and >> a rock burst itself might appear as a 3 >> or so earthquake. >> They are very deep hot dangerous misearable work >> from what i understand for those diamond miners. >> It is not uncommon for miners to die that way >> in South Africa. Here in Arizona they (Miners) >> even talk about Rock Bursts >> but i think they are worse the deeper you mine. >> I do not know of any Arizona Mines over a mile deep >> like they have in South Africa. >> >> Regards; >> geoff >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jón Frímann" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, August 06, 2007 2:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake >> >> >> Hi >> >> There have been instances of there mines did trigger earthquakes, some >> up to mag 5.0. Once such insdent was recorded in South Africa few years >> ago. However, I can't tell in this case. >> >> USGS has listed this earthquake, >> > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/eqcenter/recenteqsww/Quakes/uu00007535.php#details >> >> Regards. >> >> -- >> Jón Frímann >> http://www.jonfr.com >> http://earthquakes.jonfr.com >> http://www.net303.net >> http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 5 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Re: Mine collaspe or Earthquake >> From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= >> Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2007 01:45:48 +0000 >> >> Hi >> >> BBC News has a intresting story about this insdent, also some >> information on other related incdents like this one. >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6933790.stm >> >> Regards. >> --=20 >> J=F3n Fr=EDmann >> http://www.jonfr.com >> http://earthquakes.jonfr.com >> http://www.net303.net >> http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ >> >> >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 6 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: closed loop folded pendulum >> From: Barry Lotz >> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2007 20:07:55 -0700 (PDT) >> >> --0-1607043524-1186456075=:29596 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> >> Hi >> Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the > components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones given > sensor properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to > it in 2003 but his address is old. >> regards >> barry >> >> >> --0-1607043524-1186456075=:29596 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >> >>
Hi
   Does anyone know where I could find the > math for the sizing the components for a possible closed loop folded > pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to email Dave > Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is > old.
regards
barry
 
>> --0-1607043524-1186456075=:29596-- >> >> >> .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >> | Message 7 | >> '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >> Subject: Re: closed loop folded pendulum >> From: ChrisAtUpw@....... >> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2007 00:10:45 EDT >> >> >> --part1_d45.fa8650d.33e94ac5_boundary >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> In a message dated 2007/08/07, barry_lotz@............. writes: >> >> > Does anyone know where I could find the math for the sizing the >> > components for a possible closed loop folded pendulum based on ones > given sensor >> > properties . I tried to email Dave Youden since He made reference to it > in 2003 >> > but his address is old. >> >> Hi Barry, >> >> See http://jclahr.com/science/psn/youden/index.html >> There is a complete design of both the mechanical construction and >> circuits for the electronics. >> >> Dave Youden can now be found at dyouden@............. >> >> Regards, >> >> Chris Chapman >> >> >> --part1_d45.fa8650d.33e94ac5_boundary >> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> In a > me= >> ssage dated 2007/08/07, barry_lotz@............. writes:
>>
>>
MARGIN-LEFT= >> : 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">   Does anyone know > w= >> here I could find the math for the sizing the components for a possible > clos= >> ed loop folded pendulum based on ones given sensor properties . I tried to > e= >> mail Dave Youden since He made reference to it in 2003 but his address is > ol= >> d.

>>
>> Hi Barry,
>>
>>        See > http://jclahr.com/science/psn/youde= >> n/index.html
>>        There is a complete design of both > the=20= >> mechanical construction and circuits for the electronics.
>>
>>        Dave Youden can now be found at HREF= >> =3D"mailto:dyouden@.............">dyouden@.............
>>
>>        Regards,
>>
>>        Chris Chapman
>> >> >> --part1_d45.fa8650d.33e94ac5_boundary-- >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 15:43:38 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/09, gmvoeth@........... writes: > It seems unlikely to me that an amatur has the abilities to build > scientific equipment with the abilities to properly recreate the actual ground motion. Hi Geoff, Why do you say that? A long period Lehman has a ~flat response out to the edge of the band. The delays due to filters are often ~0.1 sec, maybe a bit more. You tend to get larger delays if you filter below 3Hz > There are phase relationships involved that are\very difficult to > properly record after passing through complex filter circuits. It largely depends on what filter circuits you use. The Butterworth filters have a sharp phase peak at the band edge. The Bessel filters show a slow change. > The best we can hope to achieve are things like > first time of arrival and relative energy content. The broad band filters are quite well compensated. You can compensate for time delays in WinQuake. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 2007/08/09, gmvoeth@........... writes= :

It seems unlikely to me that an= amatur has the abilities to build scientific equipment with the abilities t= o properly recreate the actual ground motion.


Hi Geoff,

       Why do you say that? A long period Lehm= an has a ~flat response out to the edge of the band. The delays due to filte= rs are often ~0.1 sec, maybe a bit more. You tend to get larger delays if yo= u filter below 3Hz

There are phase relationships i= nvolved that are\very difficult to
properly record after passing through complex filter circuits.


       It largely depends on what filter circ= uits you use. The Butterworth filters have a sharp phase peak at the band ed= ge. The Bessel filters show a slow change.

The best we can hope to achieve= are things like
first time of arrival and relative energy content.


       The broad band filters are quite well c= ompensated.

       You can compensate for time delays in W= inQuake.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Inverse filter for seismic sensors. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 05:11:38 EDT In a message dated 2007/04/24 03:19:37 GMT Daylight Time, Bobhelenmcclure@....... writes: > Subj:Inverse filter for seismic sensors. > Date:2007/04/24 03:19:37 GMT Daylight Time > From:Bobhelenmcclure@....... > Reply-to:psn-l@.............. > To:psn-l@.............. > CC:E.Wielandt@............ bhutt@......... jimo17@......... rwsell@......... > mariotti@.......... jclahr@.............. > Sent from the Internet > > > > I am an amateur seismographer, located in Locust Valley, NY. My station > consists of home built sensors of rather short natural period. Out of > necessity, I have developed a digital inverse filter, which allows extension of the > natural period of the sensors to five or more times their natural period. It > took a lot of grunting and straining to perfect this filter, and I want to > share it with anybody who could benefit. It ended up being simple to code and > use. All you need to set it up is the natural period and damping of the sensor, > and the desired filter period. It can be used in real time or on completed > files. > > In case you have any need to enhance the performance of geophones or any > other open loop sensor you operate, please refer to web page > > http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/filter.html > > This page describes the analog prototype of the filter and the pseudocode > for its digital version. A mathematical analysis demonstrates that the > filter's frequency response is correct. > > This filter is implemented in my programs "WQFilter.exe" and > "Heliplot.exe", which can be downloaded from > > http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html > > "WQFilter.exe" is a utility program for filtering WinQuake PSN Type 4 > event files. "Heliplot.exe" is a program for filtering and displaying Dataq WQD > format files. It would be easy for me to code these applications for other > file formats, including Little Endian SAC binary files. > > Dr. Alan Jones has also incorporated this filter into "AmaSeis.exe" for > filtering SAC binary format event files. However, the version he has coded is > no longer up-to-date, and the response is not quite so accurate as the latest > version. > > All my applications are written using Visual Basic 6.0 for Windows. Alan > is currently re-coding Amaseis using Java, so that it can be compiled for > other operating systems. > > Please note that "WQFilter.exe" also includes Butterworth filters for > lowpass and highpass filtering. Forward, backward, and forward-backward filtering > can be selected. If you apply both my period extending filter and a second > order highpass backward filter to the event data, you can end up with a > broader bandwidth file which has no phase distortion and no time delay in the > passband. > > Robert (Bob) McClure > > > > See what's free at AOL.com. > In a me= ssage dated 2007/04/24 03:19:37 GMT Daylight Time, Bobhelenmcclure@....... w= rites:


Subj:Inverse filter for seis= mic sensors.
Date:2007/04/24 03:19:37 GMT Daylight Time
From:Bobhelenmcclure@.......<= BR> Reply-to:psn-l@.............. To:psn-l@..............
CC:E.Wielandt@..........., bhutt@........, jimo17@........, rwsell@usg= s.gov, mariotti@........., jclahr@..............
Sent from the Internet



  I am an amateur seismographer, located in Locust Valley, NY. My stati= on consists of home built sensors of rather short natural period. Out of nec= essity, I have developed a digital inverse filter, which allows extension of= the natural period of the sensors to five or more times their natural perio= d. It took a lot of grunting and straining to perfect this filter, and I wan= t to share it with anybody who could benefit. It ended up being simple to co= de and use. All you need to set it up is the natural period and damping of t= he sensor, and the desired filter period. It can be used in real time or on=20= completed files.

  In case you have any need to enhance the performance of geophones or=20= any other open loop sensor you operate, please refer to web page

  htt= p://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/filter.html

  This page describes the analog prototype of the filter and the pseudo= code for its digital version. A mathematical analysis demonstrates that the=20= filter's frequency response is correct.

  This filter is implemented in my programs "WQFilter.exe" and "Heliplo= t.exe", which can be downloaded from

  http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html=

  "WQFilter.exe" is a utility program for filtering WinQuake PSN Type 4= event files. "Heliplot.exe" is a program for filtering and displaying Dataq= WQD format files. It would be easy for me to code these applications for ot= her file formats, including Little Endian SAC binary files.

  Dr. Alan Jones has also incorporated this filter into "AmaSeis.exe" f= or filtering SAC binary format event files. However, the version he has code= d is no longer up-to-date, and the response is not quite so accurate as the=20= latest version.

  All my applications are written using Visual Basic 6.0 for Windows. A= lan is currently re-coding Amaseis using Java, so that it can be compiled fo= r other operating systems.

  Please note that "WQFilter.exe" also includes Butterworth filters for= lowpass and highpass filtering. Forward, backward, and forward-backward fil= tering can be selected. If you apply both my period extending filter and a s= econd order highpass backward filter to the event data, you can end up with=20= a broader bandwidth file which has no phase distortion and no time delay in=20= the passband.

Robert (Bob) McClure



See what's free at AOL.com.


Subject: PreAmplifier Design for HS-10 1Hz geophone From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:12:52 -0700 Hello PSN; below you will find the ONLY stable circuit design I can use here. This design gives 40dBv ( X100) gain to the input and phase shift destroys noise on the plus input above a certain freq like 60Hz power noise. I follow this with a buffer amp of also X100 for X10,000 overall and with a 12 bit converter ( using the upper 8 bits ) I can see about 16mv/count or 0.016/10,000 = 1.6 microvolts peak per count. I have found it best to use a buffer amp that the preamp feeds directly to the plus input then you use a resistor with the same value as the preamps output impedance ( resistance) so like that means a 50 or 60 ohm from the minus side to ground and possibly 5.1 K to 5.6K feedback resistor. From the daytime noise here it amounts to 82 femto watts into 360 ohms. at night maybe 1/4 less noise. On the image I give a freq but think I may be wrong. Possibly the freq is X2 what i say. It will take one of you experts to set me straight whats really happening. All i really know is every little thing electrical and otherwise will screwup my signals if I do not use this one and only I ever found circuit. I have never seen this design in the books I accidentally found it by simply searching for the source of unwanted noise. Notice it involves the exact matching of all components. The components are matched within the resolution of the test equipment ( 3 1/2 digit MultiMeter ) The parts dont have to be the exact values but for the yin must be the yang so at least try to see the plus and minus sides are matched. I had to share this with you because Id hate to see anyone have the problems I had getting a stable baseline ( Class " A" for you older folks which is simply 360 deg waveform reproduction as opposed to Class "B" 180deg and class "C" less than 180 usually for oscillators) Comments welcome as well as improvements. Anyone give me an easy way to select the proper values for my sensor to feed into WinQuake ? Regards; geoff http://gmvoeth.home.mchsi.com/PREAMP.GIF __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:07:30 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 > In a message dated 2007/08/09, gmvoeth@........... writes: > >> It seems unlikely to me that an amatur has the abilities to build >> scientific equipment with the abilities to properly recreate the actual ground motion. > > Hi Geoff, > > Why do you say that? A long period Lehman has a ~flat response out to > the edge of the band. The delays due to filters are often ~0.1 sec, maybe a > bit more. You tend to get larger delays if you filter below 3Hz > >> There are phase relationships involved that are\very difficult to >> properly record after passing through complex filter circuits. > > > It largely depends on what filter circuits you use. The Butterworth > filters have a sharp phase peak at the band edge. The Bessel filters show a slow > change. > >> The best we can hope to achieve are things like >> first time of arrival and relative energy content. > > The broad band filters are quite well compensated. > > You can compensate for time delays in WinQuake. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > I really dont know how you can say these things as the absolute truth unless you are a Physics Major with a PHD With a degree also in Math to prove your points. You might very possibly be both of those but because of the way the USA is and its lack of freedoms I have no legal way to positively identify either you or your background. I only hope you truly understand your subject here. I see no real delay through circuitry simply a phase shift like when the wave starts zero degrees on the input it might come shifted to 90 or 270 degrees on the output. It is interesting to note we all live maybe 100 milliseconds behind real time and with that in mind is it possible at all that we can know the present. I think because the phase shift is bizarre through the entire spectrum of any filtered component that a faithful recreation of actual ground motion is out of reach for the common man. A square wave ground motion will not be square wave recorded with a hundred or more of necessary ODD harmonics showing. As all those harmonics must be in phase with the fundamental. Regards; geoff __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:51:25 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/11, gmvoeth@........... writes: > I really dont know how you can say these things as the > absolute truth unless you are a Physics Major with a PHD > With a degree also in Math to prove your points. > You might very possibly be both of those but because > of the way the USA is and its lack of freedoms > I have no legal way to positively > identify either you or your background. Hi Geoff, You could always look me up in the Oxford University Yearbook? > It is interesting to note we all live maybe > 100 milliseconds behind real time and with > that in mind is it possible at all that we can know the present. > > I think because the phase shift is bizarre through the entire spectrum > of any filtered component that a faithful recreation of actual ground > motion is out of reach for the common man. > > A square wave ground motion will not be square wave recorded > with a hundred or more of necessary ODD harmonics showing. > As all those harmonics must be in phase with the fundamental. If you use a Bessel filter, you get a roughly square wave out for a square wave in, but with rounded corners, depending on the relationship of the wave frequency to the corner ferquency. The phase relationship below fc is ~constant. If you want roughly the same tail off with a Bessel filter, you need to choose about 0.7 x the corner frequency you would use with a Butterworth filter. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/11, gmvoeth@........... writes:

I really dont know how you can=20= say these things as the
absolute truth unless you are a Physics Major with a PHD
With a degree also in Math to prove your points.
You might very possibly be both of those but because
of the way the USA is and its lack of freedoms
I have no legal way to positively
identify either you or your background.


Hi Geoff,

       You could always look me up in the Oxfo= rd University Yearbook?

It is interesting to note we al= l live maybe
100 milliseconds behind real time and with
that in mind is it possible at all that we can know the present.

I think because the phase shift is bizarre through the entire spectrum
of any filtered component that a faithful recreation of actual ground
motion is out of reach for the common man.

A square wave ground motion will not be square wave recorded
with a hundred or more of necessary ODD harmonics showing.
As all those harmonics must be in phase with the fundamental.

       If you use a Bessel filter, you get a r= oughly square wave out for a square wave in, but with rounded corners, depen= ding on the relationship of the wave frequency to the corner ferquency. The=20= phase relationship below fc is ~constant.

       If you want roughly the same tail off w= ith a Bessel filter, you need to choose about 0.7 x the corner frequency you= would use with a Butterworth filter.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: PreAmplifier Design for HS-10 1Hz geophone From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:59:25 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/11, gmvoeth@........... writes: > Comments welcome as well as improvements. > Hi Geoff, The 400 Ohm HS-10 requires a 2050 Ohms damping resistor and you have 2 K Ohms. You need a second 0.33 mu F capacitor across the 100 K resistor to Earth to balance the circuit. The 0.33 mu F across the input terminals is not doing anything! Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/11, gmvoeth@........... writes:

Comments welcome as well as imp= rovements.

Hi Geoff,

      The 400 Ohm HS-10 requires a 2050 Ohms dampin= g resistor and you have 2 K Ohms.
       You need a second 0.33 mu F capacitor a= cross the 100 K resistor to Earth to balance the circuit. The 0.33 mu F acro= ss the input terminals is not doing anything!

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:08:49 -0700 Hello Chris; Thank you for your answers not many people will tolerate me for long. This all sounds nice and wonderful but since I am not a mathmatician I do not even fake knowing what a bessel function really is. I simply find circuits and their associated formulas and use these tools to figure what I want to do. I have found they for the most part are telling the truth and if you go by the numbers exactly can not go wrong except for things they expect you to already know. It is like many of these formulas are only written for other experts to use and not the layman who might simply want a new tool in his toolbox. I have spoken with engineers and they tell me that the scientists will have them build things but the scientists all have their heads in the clouds and that why the engineers are there to take the ideas and make real working models out of the ideas that come from the scientists. Only the engineers really understand the capabilities and limitations of current technology. Please be patient with me, I understand science is the right place to argue because only the truth stands up over time to argument. And science is a world where arguments can rule without having people kill each other. Positive identification of any individual is not usually as easy as simply looking them up in whatever book. For the sake of my own sanity I shall accept your words here as the gosipal truth. (My spelling is and was and shall always be terrible). I am not trying to shine a negative light on you but simply understand for myself the physical universe. If I had been more intelligent I would have tried for a physics/math degree sort of like that god named oppenheimer. Can you tell me how, say 15 femto watts received at my station during the work day will translate to the various power sources. Like is that 15 femtowatts per square foot ??? If you add up all the square feet for the entire Phoenix area ( Circle 60 miles in diameter ) do you get a realistic idea of the energy disappearing into Universal Entropy ? Can you tell how many ergs are being used in this vicinity over the course of a year ?? Is it possible to look at the energy received here from an Earthquake and translate that energy back to its source so many great circle degrees away ? Can you tell me in layman terms how to do that with my limited knowledge ? I had the unfortunate luck to be born to a father that hated Technicians/ Technologists/ Scientists and Engineers. Otherwise I would have pursued that line of study. He was a very smart blue collar type. Im nor crying about this just trying to make you understand why I ask the questions i ask. Must seem rediculous to you. But its important to my understanding. Also, I need a source of cheap ( but good) 1/4 watt metal film resistors but everyone like wants many cents for them. Is there any place where I might get a kit of 5000 resistors ( various selections E(whatever)of values ) maybe less than 100 USD ??? Also I need several 4.7uF poly caps and cant seem to find them also. I have been taking the 1u radio shack poly and sloldering them into a couple really really big ones :-( . They work like champs but a real pain to build. Electrolytics are no good on the front end. Got to use poly or some other non-polar non-electrolytic type. Also, is it possible to build a meshed capacitor plate that you can use as a bridge network of lets say 15KHz to linerarly sense ground motion ? How many pico per micro inch must change Does the plate have to be misshapened to compensate for non-linearities like log or Conic function (circular, elliptical, parabolic,hyperbolic) or just plain linear ? I imagine it might rest in a bath of oil which could act as a dielectric as well as dampener. It might look something like the old ganged air caps of old radio days. Have you ever heard of any kind of varactor sensor for seismic designs ? On the lighter side i understand that background radiation is a function of altitude ?? Im serious except the last one above. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 11:51 AM Subject: Re: Digest from 08/06/2007 00:01:22 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: PreAmplifier Design for HS-10 1Hz geophone From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:18:33 -0700 I fully disagree with you based upon personal experiences. If I use this circuit it is the only one that will work for me but I will also try adding the additional cap you talk about. There seems to be a 180 deg phase shift occuring at all freqs above some cutoff that is applied to the plus terminal the first 90 coming from the feedback and the second 90 coming from the plus minus cap. It works very well in my place here but i got some 12800 volt power wires only 60 feet away and i think they may be the sources of my troubles. The neg lead of the opamp want to be non-changing effectively creating a phantom ground it is the positive changes above some cutoff that are being cancelled. This type of unheard of noise filter seems good up to very high freqs within the limits of the op amp. I bet if the caps were big enough you would just have almost DC. It is funny to realize the distance between one and infinity and one and zero are essentially the very same thing when looking at inverses. I need this circuit. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 11:59 AM Subject: Re: PreAmplifier Design for HS-10 1Hz geophone > In a message dated 2007/08/11, gmvoeth@........... writes: > >> Comments welcome as well as improvements. >> > Hi Geoff, > > The 400 Ohm HS-10 requires a 2050 Ohms damping resistor and you have 2 > K Ohms. > You need a second 0.33 mu F capacitor across the 100 K resistor to > Earth to balance the circuit. The 0.33 mu F across the input terminals is not > doing anything! > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Crossed rod pivot on 2 HD flat surface inner ring/holes From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 18:49:44 -0600 Hi all, Heres a quite different but very interesting and potentially useful surplus item that could have best use in a hanging mass (horizontal), i.e., a "S-G"; or, as part of a pivot hinge for a vertical seismometer. A strong incentive is that the item is likely obtained just about everywhere world wide at little cost...except for the rolling pivot rod axis used. They can be found normally as obsolete, as factory rejects, removed from equipment or even with damaged flat surfaces from read heads. This subject is in regard to discrete Hard Drive (HD) disks (sputtered or electroplated; with a mirror like finish, and NOT the older iron oxide reddish orange color disks) as part of a seismometer pivot hinge. See "normal" hard drive pictures and misc., details at: http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/ index.html Specifically, its the inner inside circular but flat mounting hole/ring that is part of the pivot. The inner hole/ring on disks I've seen is about 0.980" in diameter. For a horizontal (S-G), a straight rod rests on the separated disks inner ring surfaces; and on the straight pivot rod is a shaft coupler with two setscrews. One setscrew is used to afix to the straight axis pivot rod, and the other selected length sawed off head, screw, is used to attach a boom/mass. One could also use two shaft couplers and space them with a bracket; to which a boom is attached; or any number of ways of mechanical attachment or improvements thereof. For a vertical its much the same type of hinge layout with a spring...somewhat like the Georgia Tech vertical, (it replaces the flexure pivot/hinge), see: http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERTO.htm or, any number of varietys of mechanical layout, including a traditional mast type vertical. The actual "desktop edge" horizontal test model was made out of common material, and was only made to initially test its usefulness. For this model, the straight rod is 1/4" diameter 304 grade stainless steel, which was wiped and briefly lightly sanded to get a clean surface. Its length straightness was only tested to roll straight down a flat incline surface for a short distance; without deviating in its travel course. Most of the pivot/hinge support material is 3/4" thick MDF (Micro Density Fiberboard), which is only glued directly onth the HD disk with the brand "Titebond III Wood Glue". The glue itself is waterproof and is usually strong enough to where with any wood, or MDF, will usually be well enough bonded to where the wood or fiber will end up being torn at a different location than at the joint. Its not a "real" super glue, but good enough for the test purpose; and is fairly commonly available in the USA. The boom was roughly 14" in length of aluminum spacers and with a brass tube. The mass is brass and weighs about 2.25 pounds. The two disks used were less than 0.0315" thick for the contact surface...perhaps ~ 0.020" wide at the rod contact area. See: http://www.geocities.com/meredithlamb/HDpivot.html The two disks and MDF parts were aligned/glued together on a surface plate for the bottom disk contact points and were upright squared for contact with acouple "1-2-3" (1" x 2" x 3") machinist blocks on the surface plate. Alignment is critical. One might be able to use plate glass as the "surface plate", and use a carpenders square with clamps or similar devices for doing the same alignment procedure. Initial oscillation duration time tests were quite simple...but obviously not lab quality. The mass was displaced 1/16", without dampening and a visual oscillation check was done over time. The time result was about 2 and 1/2 hours of oscillation...really exceptionally long for a somewhat rough setup: and was quite encouraging to say the least, for its amazing lack of much friction at all, a most critical part of any seismometer hinge/pivot. A recorded duration would be much better; but it would have to be done for each pivot made. Of course a table top model isn't a very good place to test such a model; as its subject to tilt from house hold movement activity. As a rough comparison, I've made/used acouple one thousandth inch thick X 1/4" wide brass flexure hinges on the same size mass in a hanging mass horizontal, and got about 30 minutes of free oscillation with a initial displacement of the mass of 1/4". The period of the described setup is about 1 second. However with a displacement sensor; the actual recorded seismic signal phases can indeed be very much longer. Its a often overlooked aspect of hanging mass or S-G seismometers with a sensitive sensor. Another positive aspect is that they require alot less base setscrew adjustments over time than other types of horizontals...as the mass is absolutely a zeroing reference to the earths gravity. One light displacement sensor is described at: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/photo_detect/index.html The specific hinge type is similar to a "crossed rod" hinge described by Chris Chapman on a past PSN email some time back. This is not a direct model of a crossed rod hinge as such; as the rod rolls on curved (relative to the direction of sensing) flat surfaces on the inner disk ring. It is possible that with enough mass weight the straight rod could actually be bending and rolling on the disks inner circle rounded chamfer. The curved rolling surface is most ideal for a "S-G", at least in its direction of oscillation (sensing direction), as its curved zeroing placement is more or less absolute once adjusted for...less any tilt from ground movement or the the normal causes experienced by any seismometer. A real problem with this type of hinge is that the rod axis can be displaced laterally to the ground reference accidentally. One idea might be to use opposing or same pole ring magnets mounted both on the rod and other frame mounted magnets in a opposing (North to North, or South to South pole) magnetic field to "fix" its tendency to wander over time. I've not tried such yet; but it sees like a fix, so too speak. The pivot rod would be ideally non-magnetic as also with any shaft couplers used. It is suggested that the spacing between any two disks be more than 3/4" if possible....especially on a vertical. The wider the spacing the more stable it should become. I accidentally knocked the mass on its axis rod side (S-G), and it actually rocked back and forth with a 3/4" spacing for about half a minute. Such a hinge/pivot can actually have acouple varietys of mechanical setups. Outside of the description above, its quite possible to mount the disks on a square hollow boom, and have the straight rod affixed to two separate support masts...I would think it might then oscillate longer due to the diameter of the inside ring to the pivot straight rod. Going further in this possible approach; once could have a "Steel Works brand, 1" aluminum tube (square)", of a chosen length, plug the bottom end, partially fill it with shotgun lead shot pellets (the mass), and afix any dampening copper or aluminum to the arrangement. The square tube would be oviously quite rigid which is desireable and more easier to add component on their flat surfaces. The "Steel Works" brand is found in most USA hardware or home improvement outlets like Home Depot or Lowes, at a reasonable price. These hard drive disks can obviously be found in defective computer hard drives, and if, one can tear them apart successfully. For another source, they be found fairly frequently at (getting rare) electronic surplus stores, in various sizes from ~1.5 to 3.5" in diameter. One needs two disks, or; its also possible to saw up one disk and use the two halves as part of the hinge. Their disk thickness can vary of course; I've seen 0.0315: and 0.050" thicknesses. The actual rod contact surface is less than the disk thickness with the machining chamfers done. Over the years, I've seen seen these items sell for between 10 and 25 cents each...a really cheap price for a part of a potentially really effective ground displacement sensing seismometer pivot/hinge. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to discern the actual plating material on the hard drives disks or their thicknesses. Most of the disks are a rigid aluminum alloy; with the plating adding alittle stiffness. I think the hard metal material could be a nickel metal plate, based solely from the greyish mirror finsish reflection color tint. The actual computer useage magnetic recording medium is probably measured in millionths of a inch thick; but I don't think this applys to the metal thickness on the aluminum disk itself. This is some thin copper plating inbetween the aluminum and the possible nickel plating. If a reader has more knowledge of the plating layers, I would be interested to read of such. They are high precision machined pieces, and as a whole are guite rigid for their thickness. I would suggest using either new drills or carbide drills to work any mounting holes, or other higher quality sharp tools.. as too much pressure with a worn drill can distort/bulge out the drilling area surface of the disk. Their is other possible seismometer uses for hard drive disks. They do have a thin copper plating that is accessible via careful sanding off of the top tough metal layer; which makes its possible for use as a capacitance plate sensor, using normal lead solder for lead wire attachment. One would need a 200 watt high heat soldering iron because of the aluminum heat sink mass cooling; but I've done that before successfully. Although small diameter, they be stacked for thickness and then used with various length metal spacers/standoffs inbetween for use as a S-G (horizontal sensor) frame with having enough plates available. One could also use threaded rods and nuts as that would probably be a more convenient and more accurate adjusted leveling spacing in relation to the base plate used. There is probably many more good uses. Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
Heres a quite different but very interesting and potentially
useful surplus item that could have best use in a hanging
mass (horizontal), i.e., a "S-G"; or, as part of a pivot
hinge for a vertical seismometer.  A strong incentive is
that the item is likely obtained just about everywhere world
wide at little cost...except for the rolling pivot rod axis used.
They can be found normally as obsolete, as factory rejects,
removed from equipment or even with damaged flat surfaces
from read heads.
 
This subject is in regard to discrete Hard Drive (HD) disks
(sputtered or electroplated; with a mirror like finish, and
NOT the older iron oxide reddish orange color disks) as part
of a seismometer pivot hinge.  See "normal" hard drive pictures
and misc., details at:
 
Specifically, its the inner inside circular but flat mounting
hole/ring that is part of the pivot.  The inner hole/ring on disks
I've seen is about 0.980" in diameter.  For a horizontal (S-G),
a straight rod rests on the separated disks inner ring surfaces;
and on the straight pivot rod is a shaft coupler with two
setscrews.  One setscrew is used to afix to the straight axis
pivot rod, and the other selected length sawed off head, screw,
is used to attach a boom/mass.  One could also use two 
shaft couplers and space them with a bracket; to which a boom
is attached; or any number of ways of mechanical attachment
or improvements thereof. 
 
For a vertical its much the same type of hinge layout with a
spring...somewhat like the Georgia Tech vertical, (it replaces
the flexure pivot/hinge), see:
or, any number of varietys of mechanical layout, including a
traditional mast type vertical.
 
The actual "desktop edge" horizontal test model was made out
of common material, and was only made to initially test its
usefulness.  For this model, the straight rod is 1/4" diameter
304 grade stainless steel, which was wiped and briefly lightly
sanded to get a clean surface.  Its length straightness was
only tested to roll straight down a flat incline surface for a 
short distance; without deviating in its travel course.  Most of
the pivot/hinge support material is 3/4" thick MDF (Micro
Density Fiberboard), which is only glued directly onth the HD
disk with the brand "Titebond III Wood Glue".  The glue itself
is waterproof and is usually strong enough to where with any 
wood, or MDF, will usually be well enough bonded to where
the wood or fiber will end up being torn at a different location 
than at the joint.  Its not a "real" super glue, but good enough
for the test purpose; and is fairly commonly available in the
USA.  The boom was roughly 14" in length of aluminum
spacers and with a brass tube.  The mass is brass and 
weighs about 2.25 pounds.  The two disks used were less
than 0.0315" thick for the contact surface...perhaps ~ 0.020"
wide at the rod contact area.  See:
 
The two disks and MDF parts were aligned/glued together on
a surface plate for the bottom disk contact points and were
upright squared for contact with acouple "1-2-3" (1" x 2" x 3")
machinist blocks on the surface plate.  Alignment is critical.
One might be able to use plate glass as the "surface plate",
and use a carpenders square with clamps or similar devices
for doing the same alignment procedure.
 
Initial oscillation duration time tests were quite simple...but
obviously not lab quality.  The mass was displaced 1/16",
without dampening and a visual oscillation check was done
over time.  The time result was about 2 and 1/2 hours of
oscillation...really exceptionally long for a somewhat rough
setup: and was quite encouraging to say the least, for its
amazing lack of much friction at all, a most critical part of
any seismometer hinge/pivot.  A recorded duration would be
much better; but it would have to be done for each pivot made.
Of course a table top model isn't a very good place to test
such a model; as its subject to tilt from house hold movement
activity.  As a rough comparison, I've made/used acouple one
thousandth inch thick X 1/4" wide brass flexure hinges on the
same size mass in a hanging mass horizontal, and got about
30 minutes of free oscillation with a initial displacement of
the mass of 1/4".
 
The period of the described setup is about 1 second.  However
with a displacement sensor; the actual recorded seismic
signal phases can indeed be very much longer.  Its a often
overlooked aspect of hanging mass or S-G seismometers
with a sensitive sensor.  Another positive aspect is that they 
require alot less base setscrew adjustments over time than
other types of horizontals...as the mass is absolutely a
zeroing reference to the earths gravity.  One light displacement
sensor is described at:
 
The specific hinge type is similar to a "crossed rod" hinge
described by Chris Chapman on a past PSN email some time
back.  This is not a direct model of a crossed rod hinge as such;
as the rod rolls on curved (relative to the direction of sensing)
flat surfaces on the inner disk ring.  It is possible that with
enough mass weight the straight rod could actually be bending
and rolling on the disks inner circle rounded chamfer.  The
curved rolling surface is most ideal for a "S-G", at least in its
direction of oscillation (sensing direction), as its curved zeroing
placement is more or less absolute once adjusted for...less
any tilt from ground movement or the the normal causes
experienced by any seismometer.
 
A real problem with this type of hinge is that the rod axis can
be displaced laterally to the ground reference accidentally.  One
idea might be to use opposing or same pole ring magnets
mounted both on the rod and other frame mounted magnets in
a opposing (North to North, or South to South pole) magnetic
field to "fix" its tendency to wander over time.  I've not tried
such yet; but it sees like a fix, so too speak.  The pivot rod
would be ideally non-magnetic as also with any shaft couplers
used.
 
It is suggested that the spacing between any two disks be
more than 3/4" if possible....especially on a vertical.  The 
wider the spacing the more stable it should become.  I
accidentally knocked the mass on its axis rod side (S-G), and
it actually rocked back and forth with a 3/4" spacing for about
half a minute.
 
Such a hinge/pivot can actually have acouple varietys of
mechanical setups.  Outside of the description above, its
quite possible to mount the disks on a square hollow boom,
and have the straight rod affixed to two separate support
masts...I would think it might then oscillate longer due to
the diameter of the inside ring to the pivot straight rod.
Going further in this possible approach; once could have a
"Steel Works brand, 1" aluminum tube (square)", of a
chosen length, plug the bottom end, partially fill it with
shotgun lead shot pellets (the mass), and afix any
dampening copper or aluminum to the arrangement.  The
square tube would be oviously quite rigid which is desireable
and more easier to add component on their flat surfaces.  The
"Steel Works" brand is found in most USA hardware or home
improvement outlets like Home Depot or Lowes, at a
reasonable price.
 
These hard drive disks can obviously be found in defective
computer hard drives, and if, one can tear them apart
successfully.  For another source, they be found fairly
frequently at (getting rare) electronic surplus stores, in
various sizes from ~1.5 to 3.5" in diameter.  One needs
two disks, or; its also possible to saw up one disk and use
the two halves as part of the hinge.  Their disk thickness
can vary of course; I've seen 0.0315: and 0.050" thicknesses.
The actual rod contact surface is less than the disk thickness
with the machining chamfers done.  Over the years, I've seen
seen these items sell for between 10 and 25 cents each...a
really cheap price for a part of a potentially really effective
ground displacement sensing seismometer pivot/hinge.
 
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to discern the actual
plating material on the hard drives disks or their thicknesses.
Most of the disks are a rigid aluminum alloy; with the
plating adding alittle stiffness.  I think the hard metal
material could be a nickel metal plate, based solely from
the greyish mirror finsish reflection color tint.  The actual
computer useage magnetic recording medium is probably
measured in millionths of a inch thick; but I don't think
this applys to the metal thickness on the aluminum disk
itself.  This is some thin copper plating inbetween the 
aluminum and the possible nickel plating.  If a reader has
more knowledge of the plating layers, I would be interested
to read of such.  They are high precision machined pieces, 
and as a whole are guite rigid for their thickness.  I would
suggest using either new drills or carbide drills to work
any mounting holes, or other higher quality sharp tools..
as too much pressure with a worn drill can distort/bulge out
the drilling area surface of the disk.
 
Their is other possible seismometer uses for hard drive disks.
They do have a thin copper plating that is accessible via
careful sanding off of the top tough metal layer; which makes
its possible for use as a capacitance plate sensor, using
normal lead solder for lead wire attachment.  One would need
a 200 watt high heat soldering iron because of the aluminum
heat sink mass cooling; but I've done that before successfully.
Although small diameter, they be stacked for thickness and
then used with various length metal spacers/standoffs 
inbetween for use as a S-G (horizontal sensor) frame with
having enough plates available.  One could also use
threaded rods and nuts as that would probably be a more
convenient and more accurate adjusted leveling spacing in
relation to the base plate used.  There is probably many
more good uses.
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
    
    
 
Subject: Best Way TO show a simple drawing From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 05:07:08 -0700 Use a fine point black magic marker on the whitest paper you can find here that is 96 to 98 I think depending on the thickness. 20lb ream vs 22 0r 24 lb. scan this to bmp then convert to gif somehow. HP will not let me scan direct to gif yet gif is the best most efficient forms for B/W drawings. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod pivot on 2 HD flat surface inner ring/holes From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:35:27 -0500 The first two Internet sites are not accessible ----- Original Message -----=20 From: meredith lamb=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 7:49 PM Subject: Crossed rod pivot on 2 HD flat surface inner ring/holes Hi all, Heres a quite different but very interesting and potentially useful surplus item that could have best use in a hanging mass (horizontal), i.e., a "S-G"; or, as part of a pivot hinge for a vertical seismometer. A strong incentive is that the item is likely obtained just about everywhere world wide at little cost...except for the rolling pivot rod axis used. They can be found normally as obsolete, as factory rejects, removed from equipment or even with damaged flat surfaces from read heads. This subject is in regard to discrete Hard Drive (HD) disks (sputtered or electroplated; with a mirror like finish, and NOT the older iron oxide reddish orange color disks) as part of a seismometer pivot hinge. See "normal" hard drive pictures and misc., details at: http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/ index.html Specifically, its the inner inside circular but flat mounting hole/ring that is part of the pivot. The inner hole/ring on disks I've seen is about 0.980" in diameter. For a horizontal (S-G),=20 a straight rod rests on the separated disks inner ring surfaces; and on the straight pivot rod is a shaft coupler with two setscrews. One setscrew is used to afix to the straight axis pivot rod, and the other selected length sawed off head, screw, is used to attach a boom/mass. One could also use two=20 shaft couplers and space them with a bracket; to which a boom is attached; or any number of ways of mechanical attachment or improvements thereof.=20 For a vertical its much the same type of hinge layout with a spring...somewhat like the Georgia Tech vertical, (it replaces the flexure pivot/hinge), see: http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERTO.htm or, any number of varietys of mechanical layout, including a traditional mast type vertical. The actual "desktop edge" horizontal test model was made out of common material, and was only made to initially test its usefulness. For this model, the straight rod is 1/4" diameter 304 grade stainless steel, which was wiped and briefly lightly sanded to get a clean surface. Its length straightness was only tested to roll straight down a flat incline surface for a=20 short distance; without deviating in its travel course. Most of the pivot/hinge support material is 3/4" thick MDF (Micro Density Fiberboard), which is only glued directly onth the HD disk with the brand "Titebond III Wood Glue". The glue itself is waterproof and is usually strong enough to where with any=20 wood, or MDF, will usually be well enough bonded to where the wood or fiber will end up being torn at a different location=20 than at the joint. Its not a "real" super glue, but good enough for the test purpose; and is fairly commonly available in the USA. The boom was roughly 14" in length of aluminum spacers and with a brass tube. The mass is brass and=20 weighs about 2.25 pounds. The two disks used were less than 0.0315" thick for the contact surface...perhaps ~ 0.020" wide at the rod contact area. See: http://www.geocities.com/meredithlamb/HDpivot.html The two disks and MDF parts were aligned/glued together on a surface plate for the bottom disk contact points and were upright squared for contact with acouple "1-2-3" (1" x 2" x 3") machinist blocks on the surface plate. Alignment is critical. One might be able to use plate glass as the "surface plate", and use a carpenders square with clamps or similar devices for doing the same alignment procedure. Initial oscillation duration time tests were quite simple...but obviously not lab quality. The mass was displaced 1/16", without dampening and a visual oscillation check was done over time. The time result was about 2 and 1/2 hours of oscillation...really exceptionally long for a somewhat rough setup: and was quite encouraging to say the least, for its amazing lack of much friction at all, a most critical part of any seismometer hinge/pivot. A recorded duration would be much better; but it would have to be done for each pivot made. Of course a table top model isn't a very good place to test such a model; as its subject to tilt from house hold movement activity. As a rough comparison, I've made/used acouple one thousandth inch thick X 1/4" wide brass flexure hinges on the same size mass in a hanging mass horizontal, and got about 30 minutes of free oscillation with a initial displacement of the mass of 1/4". The period of the described setup is about 1 second. However with a displacement sensor; the actual recorded seismic signal phases can indeed be very much longer. Its a often overlooked aspect of hanging mass or S-G seismometers with a sensitive sensor. Another positive aspect is that they=20 require alot less base setscrew adjustments over time than other types of horizontals...as the mass is absolutely a zeroing reference to the earths gravity. One light displacement sensor is described at: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/photo_detect/index.html The specific hinge type is similar to a "crossed rod" hinge described by Chris Chapman on a past PSN email some time back. This is not a direct model of a crossed rod hinge as such; as the rod rolls on curved (relative to the direction of sensing) flat surfaces on the inner disk ring. It is possible that with enough mass weight the straight rod could actually be bending and rolling on the disks inner circle rounded chamfer. The curved rolling surface is most ideal for a "S-G", at least in its direction of oscillation (sensing direction), as its curved zeroing placement is more or less absolute once adjusted for...less any tilt from ground movement or the the normal causes experienced by any seismometer. A real problem with this type of hinge is that the rod axis can be displaced laterally to the ground reference accidentally. One idea might be to use opposing or same pole ring magnets mounted both on the rod and other frame mounted magnets in a opposing (North to North, or South to South pole) magnetic field to "fix" its tendency to wander over time. I've not tried such yet; but it sees like a fix, so too speak. The pivot rod would be ideally non-magnetic as also with any shaft couplers used. It is suggested that the spacing between any two disks be more than 3/4" if possible....especially on a vertical. The=20 wider the spacing the more stable it should become. I accidentally knocked the mass on its axis rod side (S-G), and it actually rocked back and forth with a 3/4" spacing for about half a minute. Such a hinge/pivot can actually have acouple varietys of mechanical setups. Outside of the description above, its quite possible to mount the disks on a square hollow boom, and have the straight rod affixed to two separate support masts...I would think it might then oscillate longer due to the diameter of the inside ring to the pivot straight rod. Going further in this possible approach; once could have a "Steel Works brand, 1" aluminum tube (square)", of a=20 chosen length, plug the bottom end, partially fill it with shotgun lead shot pellets (the mass), and afix any dampening copper or aluminum to the arrangement. The square tube would be oviously quite rigid which is desireable and more easier to add component on their flat surfaces. The "Steel Works" brand is found in most USA hardware or home improvement outlets like Home Depot or Lowes, at a reasonable price. These hard drive disks can obviously be found in defective computer hard drives, and if, one can tear them apart successfully. For another source, they be found fairly frequently at (getting rare) electronic surplus stores, in various sizes from ~1.5 to 3.5" in diameter. One needs two disks, or; its also possible to saw up one disk and use the two halves as part of the hinge. Their disk thickness can vary of course; I've seen 0.0315: and 0.050" thicknesses. The actual rod contact surface is less than the disk thickness with the machining chamfers done. Over the years, I've seen seen these items sell for between 10 and 25 cents each...a really cheap price for a part of a potentially really effective ground displacement sensing seismometer pivot/hinge. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to discern the actual plating material on the hard drives disks or their thicknesses. Most of the disks are a rigid aluminum alloy; with the=20 plating adding alittle stiffness. I think the hard metal=20 material could be a nickel metal plate, based solely from the greyish mirror finsish reflection color tint. The actual computer useage magnetic recording medium is probably measured in millionths of a inch thick; but I don't think this applys to the metal thickness on the aluminum disk itself. This is some thin copper plating inbetween the=20 aluminum and the possible nickel plating. If a reader has more knowledge of the plating layers, I would be interested to read of such. They are high precision machined pieces,=20 and as a whole are guite rigid for their thickness. I would suggest using either new drills or carbide drills to work any mounting holes, or other higher quality sharp tools.. as too much pressure with a worn drill can distort/bulge out the drilling area surface of the disk. Their is other possible seismometer uses for hard drive disks. They do have a thin copper plating that is accessible via careful sanding off of the top tough metal layer; which makes its possible for use as a capacitance plate sensor, using normal lead solder for lead wire attachment. One would need a 200 watt high heat soldering iron because of the aluminum heat sink mass cooling; but I've done that before successfully. Although small diameter, they be stacked for thickness and then used with various length metal spacers/standoffs=20 inbetween for use as a S-G (horizontal sensor) frame with having enough plates available. One could also use threaded rods and nuts as that would probably be a more convenient and more accurate adjusted leveling spacing in relation to the base plate used. There is probably many more good uses. Take care, Meredith Lamb =20 =20
The first two Internet sites are not=20 accessible
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 meredith lamb
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 = 7:49=20 PM
Subject: Crossed rod pivot on 2 = HD flat=20 surface inner ring/holes

Hi all,
 
Heres a quite different but very interesting and = potentially
useful surplus item that could have best use in a hanging
mass (horizontal), i.e., a "S-G"; or, as part of a pivot
hinge for a vertical seismometer.  A strong incentive = is
that the item is likely obtained just about everywhere = world
wide at little cost...except for the rolling pivot rod axis = used.
They can be found normally as obsolete, as factory rejects,
removed from equipment or even with damaged flat surfaces
from read heads.
 
This subject is in regard to discrete Hard Drive (HD) disks
(sputtered or electroplated; with a mirror like finish, and
NOT the older iron oxide reddish orange color disks) as = part
of a seismometer pivot hinge.  See "normal" hard drive=20 pictures
and misc., details at:
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/=20 index.html
 
Specifically, its the inner inside circular but flat = mounting
hole/ring that is part of the pivot.  The inner hole/ring on = disks
I've seen is about 0.980" in diameter.  For a horizontal = (S-G),=20
a straight rod rests on the separated disks inner ring = surfaces;
and on the straight pivot rod is a shaft coupler with two
setscrews.  One setscrew is used to afix to the straight = axis
pivot rod, and the other selected length sawed off head, = screw,
is used to attach a boom/mass.  One could also use = two 
shaft couplers and space them with a bracket; to which a = boom
is attached; or any number of ways of mechanical attachment
or improvements thereof. 
 
For a vertical its much the same type of hinge layout with = a
spring...somewhat like the Georgia Tech vertical, (it = replaces
the flexure pivot/hinge), see:
http://quake= ..eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERTO.htm
or, any number of varietys of mechanical layout, including = a
traditional mast type vertical.
 
The actual "desktop edge" horizontal test model was made = out
of common material, and was only made to initially test its
usefulness.  For this model, the straight rod is 1/4" = diameter
304 grade stainless steel, which was wiped and briefly = lightly
sanded to get a clean surface.  Its length straightness = was
only tested to roll straight down a flat incline surface for=20 a 
short distance; without deviating in its travel course.  = Most=20 of
the pivot/hinge support material is 3/4" thick MDF (Micro
Density Fiberboard), which is only glued directly onth the = HD
disk with the brand "Titebond III Wood Glue".  The glue = itself
is waterproof and is usually strong enough to where with = any 
wood, or MDF, will usually be well enough bonded to = where
the wood or fiber will end up being torn at a different=20 location 
than at the joint.  Its not a "real" super glue, but good=20 enough
for the test purpose; and is fairly commonly available in = the
USA.  The boom was roughly 14" in length of aluminum
spacers and with a brass tube.  The mass is brass = and 
weighs about 2.25 pounds.  The two disks used = were less
than 0.0315" thick for the contact surface...perhaps ~ = 0.020"
wide at the rod contact area.  See:
http://www.ge= ocities.com/meredithlamb/HDpivot.html
 
The two disks and MDF parts were aligned/glued together on
a surface plate for the bottom disk contact points and were
upright squared for contact with acouple "1-2-3" (1" x 2" x = 3")
machinist blocks on the surface plate.  Alignment is = critical.
One might be able to use plate glass as the "surface = plate",
and use a carpenders square with clamps or similar = devices
for doing the same alignment procedure.
 
Initial oscillation duration time tests were quite = simple...but
obviously not lab quality.  The mass was displaced = 1/16",
without dampening and a visual oscillation check was done
over time.  The time result was about 2 and 1/2 hours = of
oscillation...really exceptionally long for a somewhat = rough
setup: and was quite encouraging to say the least, for its
amazing lack of much friction at all, a most critical part = of
any seismometer hinge/pivot.  A recorded duration would = be
much better; but it would have to be done for=20 each pivot made.
Of course a table top model isn't a very good place to test
such a model; as its subject to tilt from house hold = movement
activity.  As a rough comparison, I've made/used acouple = one
thousandth inch thick X 1/4" wide brass flexure hinges on = the
same size mass in a hanging mass horizontal, and got about
30 minutes of free oscillation with a initial displacement = of
the mass of 1/4".
 
The period of the described setup is about 1 second.  = However
with a displacement sensor; the actual recorded seismic
signal phases can indeed be very much longer.  Its a = often
overlooked aspect of hanging mass or S-G seismometers
with a sensitive sensor.  Another positive aspect is that=20 they 
require alot less base setscrew adjustments over time than
other types of horizontals...as the mass is absolutely a
zeroing reference to the earths gravity.  One light=20 displacement
sensor is described at:
ht= tp://jclahr.com/science/psn/chapman/photo_detect/index.html
 
The specific hinge type is similar to a "crossed rod" hinge
described by Chris Chapman on a past PSN email some time
back.  This is not a direct model of a crossed rod = hinge as=20 such;
as the rod rolls on curved (relative to the direction of = sensing)
flat surfaces on the inner disk ring.  It is possible that=20 with
enough mass weight the straight rod could actually be = bending
and rolling on the disks inner circle rounded chamfer.  = The
curved rolling surface is most ideal for a "S-G", at least in = its
direction of oscillation (sensing direction), as its curved = zeroing
placement is more or less absolute once adjusted for...less
any tilt from ground movement or the the normal causes
experienced by any seismometer.
 
A real problem with this type of hinge is that the rod axis = can
be displaced laterally to the ground reference = accidentally. =20 One
idea might be to use opposing or same pole ring magnets
mounted both on the rod and other frame mounted magnets in
a opposing (North to North, or South to South pole) = magnetic
field to "fix" its tendency to wander over time.  I've not=20 tried
such yet; but it sees like a fix, so too speak.  The pivot = rod
would be ideally non-magnetic as also with any shaft = couplers
used.
 
It is suggested that the spacing between any two disks be
more than 3/4" if possible....especially on a vertical. =20 The 
wider the spacing the more stable it should become.  I
accidentally knocked the mass on its axis rod side (S-G), = and
it actually rocked back and forth with a 3/4" spacing for = about
half a minute.
 
Such a hinge/pivot can actually have acouple varietys = of
mechanical setups.  Outside of the description above, = its
quite possible to mount the disks on a square hollow boom,
and have the straight rod affixed to two separate support
masts...I would think it might then oscillate longer due to
the diameter of the inside ring to the pivot straight rod.
Going further in this possible approach; once could have a
"Steel Works brand, 1" aluminum tube (square)", of a
chosen length, plug the bottom end, partially fill it with
shotgun lead shot pellets (the mass), and afix any
dampening copper or aluminum to the arrangement.  The
square tube would be oviously quite rigid which is = desireable
and more easier to add component on their flat surfaces.  = The
"Steel Works" brand is found in most USA hardware or home
improvement outlets like Home Depot or Lowes, at a
reasonable price.
 
These hard drive disks can obviously be found in defective
computer hard drives, and if, one can tear them apart
successfully.  For another source, they be found = fairly
frequently at (getting rare) electronic surplus stores, in
various sizes from ~1.5 to 3.5" in diameter.  One = needs
two disks, or; its also possible to saw up one disk and use
the two halves as part of the hinge.  Their disk = thickness
can vary of course; I've seen 0.0315: and 0.050" = thicknesses.
The actual rod contact surface is less than the disk = thickness
with the machining chamfers done.  Over the years, I've = seen
seen these items sell for between 10 and 25 cents each...a
really cheap price for a part of a potentially really = effective
ground displacement sensing seismometer pivot/hinge.
 
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to discern the actual
plating material on the hard drives disks or their = thicknesses.
Most of the disks are a rigid aluminum alloy; with the
plating adding alittle stiffness.  I think the hard metal =
material could be a nickel metal plate, based solely from
the greyish mirror finsish reflection color tint.  The = actual
computer useage magnetic recording medium is probably
measured in millionths of a inch thick; but I don't think
this applys to the metal thickness on the aluminum disk
itself.  This is some thin copper plating inbetween = the 
aluminum and the possible nickel plating.  If a reader = has
more knowledge of the plating layers, I would be interested
to read of such.  They are high precision machined=20 pieces, 
and as a whole are guite rigid for their thickness.  I = would
suggest using either new drills or carbide drills to work
any mounting holes, or other higher quality sharp tools..
as too much pressure with a worn drill can distort/bulge = out
the drilling area surface of the disk.
 
Their is other possible seismometer uses for hard drive = disks.
They do have a thin copper plating that is accessible via
careful sanding off of the top tough metal layer; which = makes
its possible for use as a capacitance plate sensor, using
normal lead solder for lead wire attachment.  One would = need
a 200 watt high heat soldering iron because of the aluminum
heat sink mass cooling; but I've done that before = successfully.
Although small diameter, they be stacked for thickness and
then used with various length metal spacers/standoffs 
inbetween for use as a S-G (horizontal sensor) frame with
having enough plates available.  One could also use
threaded rods and nuts as that would probably be a more
convenient and more accurate adjusted leveling spacing in
relation to the base plate used.  There is probably = many
more good uses.
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
    
    
 
Subject: Old Computer From: "TChannel" tchannel1@............ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:30:40 -0600 Hi, I have two of my sensors running on old Windows 98 computers. I = was given a Windows 95 Pentium 1? with 2 Gb Hdd and 32 mb ram. Will Winquake and AmaSeis run okay on = this machine? Thanks, Ted Ps I have my own computer problems and I think = it will need to go to the repair shop, so I could be out of touch for a = while.
Hi,  I have two of my sensors = running on old=20 Windows 98 computers.  I was given a Windows 95 Pentium = 1?
with 2 Gb Hdd and 32 mb = ram.   Will=20 Winquake and AmaSeis run okay on this machine?
 
Thanks,=20 Ted           &nbs= p; Ps I=20 have my own computer problems and I think it will need to go to the = repair shop,=20 so I could be out of touch for a while.
Subject: Re: Old Computer From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:48:30 -0700 Hello tchannel1; Can you please tell me whats wrong with your hardware, You might want to email me direct since this might not be right topic for PSN. I most probably can not help you But I am interested in hearing of others hardware troubles. Dos programs will run fairly nicely from Win XP backwards to DOS 6.22 but some Windows EXE files simply refuse to run on anything but windows. I have Win95 and Win 98 and Winxp and DOS 6.22 and have tried winquake on all three Windows but only now use it on my WinXp machine since this machine it is the pivot point of everything. A note of interest, Win XP PRO seems to work best on a FAT32 system and not NTFS. You can back up your system if you have Western Digital drives using their freely available self booting CD or Floopies Do not back up using windows in anything but safe mode because it will do funny things to the system like lock files that can not be copied to another drive. Before you have any work done on your hardware copy ALL files to a FAT32 partition so you can recover through the BIOS (DOS BOOT) if necessary. Partition Magic 8+ is a very good urility program to get. It will make boot floppies to fix up your drives. Memtest 86 is wonderful for testing your ram and telling you whats wrong. Like if you fail only test 5 your latency or speeds may be set wrong and you only need to go into the bios and slow things down. A program called TuffTest pro is great for the system but still you need memtest86 to find stubborn timing and control issues it does block moves which is the fastest transferr you machine will ever have to make in and out of memory (RAM). There is a nice RAMDRIVE utility for WinXP that will give you a B drive like up to 650MB if you need it. These programs except for (memtest86) are not free but nice to have. Memtest 86 is most probably the single most important one for testing your hardware and it is free. Get the ISO file and burn it to a CD using the free program DEEP BURNER. You must run memtest86 two whole passes error free at least before you can feel confident data will not easily be corrupted. I would run this program on any new or upgraded or repaired machine before trusting it. Thanks; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "TChannel" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:30 AM Subject: Old Computer Hi, I have two of my sensors running on old Windows 98 computers. I was given a Windows 95 Pentium 1? with 2 Gb Hdd and 32 mb ram. Will Winquake and AmaSeis run okay on this machine? Thanks, Ted Ps I have my own computer problems and I think it will need to go to the repair shop, so I could be out of touch for a while. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Old Computer From: "peter la plante" laplantep@............... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:50:41 -0600
 
Subject: Re: Old Computer From: "peter la plante" laplantep@............... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:52:21 -0600
 
Subject: Re: Old Computer From: "peter la plante" laplantep@............... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:52:32 -0600
 
Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 06:53:14 +1000 No way :) that is slow and labourous!!! .... the BEST way is to draw the circuit diag directly into MS paint and save as a monochrome bitmap (bmp) then use one of any # of programs to convert it to a gif I use Thumbsplus its a great prog that I have used for resizing, recolouring, etc and it converts between most of the current pic format types. I couldnt live with out it In fact cuz a mono bitmap file is only 103kB at my hi resolution, most of the time I dont even bother to convert it. !!!! I have been using MS paint for cct drawings for some 12 yrs .... its esy to make up a page of cct symbols and jst copy and paste to where u need them and add a few lines between along with explanation text. I have drawn dozens and dozens of ccts this way ( without the need to go to an expensive CAD prog.) check out www.sydneystormcity.com/10GHz-Mod-Tonegen-AFC.bmp and www.sydneystormcity.com/23GHz-Sys-Block-diag.bmp for examples (copy and paste into your browser :) ) You have my permission to use these 2 bmp's as a starting point for some component symbols etc, if you like :) cheers Dave N VK2TDN At 05:07 AM 12/08/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Use a fine point black magic marker on the whitest paper you can find >here that is 96 to 98 I think depending on the thickness. >20lb ream vs 22 0r 24 lb. scan this to bmp then convert >to gif somehow. HP will not let me scan direct to gif >yet gif is the best most efficient forms for B/W drawings. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Old Computer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:23:37 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/12, tchannel1@............ writes: > I was given a Windows 95 Pentium 1? with 2 Gb Hdd and 32 mb ram. Will > Winquake and AmaSeis run okay on this machine? Hi Ted, I am doubtful about the RAM. Try it and see? Can you increase it to 64 MB? Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/12, tchannel1@............ writes:

I was given a Windows 95 Penti= um 1? with 2 Gb Hdd and 32 mb ram.   Will Winquake and AmaSeis run= okay on this machine?


Hi Ted,

       I am doubtful about the RAM. Try it and= see? Can you increase it to 64 MB?

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Crossed rod pivot on 2 HD flat surface inner ring/holes From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:32:11 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/12, dickthomas01@............. writes: > The first two Internet sites are not accessible > Hi Tom, Try http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/index.html> > and http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/12, dickthomas01@............. writes:

The first two Internet sites ar= e not accessible

Hi Tom,

     Try http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op= /index.html


       and http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instrum= ents/LPVERT0.htm

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Old Computer From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:45:05 -0700 Ted, Try to get up to at least Win98 Second Edition. In the end, it may be much less hassle than dealing with a Win95 system. John At 02:23 PM 8/12/2007, you wrote: >In a message dated 2007/08/12, tchannel1@............ writes: > >>I was given a Windows 95 Pentium 1? with 2 Gb Hdd and 32 mb >>ram. Will Winquake and AmaSeis run okay on this machine? > > >Hi Ted, > > I am doubtful about the RAM. Try it and see? Can you > increase it to 64 MB? > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:05:27 -0700 Hello Dave Nelson, The only reason I say gif is the best is because the Europeans seem to like gif best with thir linux systems and since I can deal with most anything I think we might humor them so the world can be one big happy family :-) I got this penpal at the JRC in Ispra Italy and he uses me to practice his english on that is where I learned they seem to favor GIF over everything else. The Europeans are quite intolerant of inefficiency. They do noy like americans using heavy paper in the mail they want you to use something like tissue paper that is so thin you can see through it. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Nelson" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing > > No way :) that is slow and labourous!!! .... the BEST way is to draw > the circuit > diag directly into MS paint > > and save as a monochrome bitmap (bmp) then use one of any # of programs > to convert it to a gif I use Thumbsplus its a great prog that I have > used for > resizing, recolouring, etc and it converts between most of the current pic > format > types. I couldnt live with out it > In fact cuz a mono bitmap file is only 103kB at my hi resolution, most of > the time > I dont even bother to convert it. !!!! > > I have been using MS paint for cct drawings for some 12 yrs .... its esy > to make > up a page of cct symbols and jst copy and paste to where u need them > and add a few lines between along with explanation text. > I have drawn dozens and dozens of ccts this way > ( without the need to go to an expensive CAD prog.) > > check out www.sydneystormcity.com/10GHz-Mod-Tonegen-AFC.bmp > > and www.sydneystormcity.com/23GHz-Sys-Block-diag.bmp > > for examples (copy and paste into your > browser :) ) > > You have my permission to use these 2 bmp's as a starting point for some > component symbols etc, if you like :) > > cheers > Dave N > VK2TDN > > At 05:07 AM 12/08/2007 -0700, you wrote: >>Use a fine point black magic marker on the whitest paper you can find >>here that is 96 to 98 I think depending on the thickness. >>20lb ream vs 22 0r 24 lb. scan this to bmp then convert >>to gif somehow. HP will not let me scan direct to gif >>yet gif is the best most efficient forms for B/W drawings. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Inverse filter for seismic sensors From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 21:19:48 EDT The material quoted in "Inverse filter for seismic sensors" dated 04/23/2007 has been recently updated. Please see the latest version at _http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/filter_examples/index.html_ (http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/filter_examples/index.html) The period extending filter in Amaseis is now mathematically correct. If you are an Amaseis user, please download the latest version at _http://www.geol.binghamton.edu/faculty/jones/_ (http://www.geol.binghamton.edu/faculty/jones/) . "WQFilter.exe" and "Heliplot.exe" are no longer in the same download. The separation was made to segregate programs for WinQuake users from programs for Dataq users. "WQFilter.exe" is now included in "winquake_utilities.zip" on page _http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/sac/index.html_ (http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/sac/index.html) and "Heliplot.exe" (contained in "seismic_dataq.zip") on page _http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html_ (http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html) "winquake_utilities.zip" also contains "SAC_to_PSN.exe" and "PSN-to-WAVE.exe". "SAC_to_PSN.exe" allow you to inspect the header contents of a SAC binary file, optionally convert the file to WinQuake format, listen to an audio rendition of the file, and optionally save the data in audio format. "PSN-to-WAVE allows you to listen to an audio rendition of a WinQuake file, and optionally save the data in audio format. "seismic_dataq.zip", in addition to "Heliplot.exe", contains all the programs you need to run a seismic station with up to four sensors using DATAQ Instruments data acquisition, and to convert WinDaq format event data to WinQuake format. Amaseis allows you to operate only one sensor. If you want to record and display filtered heliplots on more than one channel using Dataq hardware, you will need my programs. Again, I urge amateurs to download and try out "WQFilter.exe" on their event files. It has a selection of highpass and lowpass filters that work better than those in WinQuake, and features my period-extending filter. Its use is almost indispensible if your sensor has a natural period of less than 20 seconds. Carefully read "WQFilterHlp.txt", which is the help file for the program. Bob ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
The material quoted in "Inverse filter for seismic sensors" dated=20 04/23/2007 has been recently updated. Please see the latest version at
 
http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/filter_examples/index.html
 
  The period extending filter in Amaseis is now mathematicall= y=20 correct. If you are an Amaseis user, please download the latest version at <= A=20 href=3D"http://www.geol.binghamton.edu/faculty/jones/">http://www.geol.bingh= amton.edu/faculty/jones/.
 
  "WQFilter.exe" and "Heliplot.exe" are no longer in the same=20 download. The separation was made to segregate programs for WinQuake users f= rom=20 programs for Dataq users. "WQFilter.exe" is now included in=20 "winquake_utilities.zip" on page
 
http://www= ..jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/sac/index.html
 
and "Heliplot.exe" (contained in  "seismic_dataq.zip") on=20 page
 
= http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html
 
  "winquake_utilities.zip" also contains "SAC_to_PSN.exe" and=20 "PSN-to-WAVE.exe". "SAC_to_PSN.exe" allow you to inspect the header contents= of=20 a SAC binary file, optionally convert the file to WinQuake format, listen to= an=20 audio rendition of the file, and optionally save the data in audio format.=20 "PSN-to-WAVE allows you to listen to an audio rendition of a=20 WinQuake file, and optionally save the data in audio format.
 
  "seismic_dataq.zip", in addition to "Heliplot.exe", contains all= the=20 programs you need to run a seismic station with up to four sensors using DAT= AQ=20 Instruments data acquisition, and to convert WinDaq format event data to=20 WinQuake format. Amaseis allows you to operate only one sensor. If you want=20= to=20 record and display filtered heliplots on more than one channel using Da= taq=20 hardware, you will need my programs.
 
  Again, I urge amateurs to download and try out "WQFilter.exe" on= =20 their event files. It has a selection of highpass and lowpass filters that w= ork=20 better than those in WinQuake, and features my period-extending filter. Its=20= use=20 is almost indispensible if your sensor has a natural period of less than 20=20 seconds. Carefully read "WQFilterHlp.txt", which is the help file for the=20 program.
 
Bob



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing From: Philip Schmidt pgschmidt@............... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 20:57:21 +0930 G'day Geoff and Dave Short of using Altium designer software from Altium I use a small and FREE schematic and PCB design software from www.expresspcb.com It is easy to use and the schematics can be linked to PCBs for easy layout ie. no mixed up tracks. The ExpressPCB company even makes the boards you design. See the website for more details. Give the program a try it produces a very good schematic diagram and you can even create your on library of components for the ones not in the ExpressPCB library. Hope this helps Cheers Phil Schmidt Geoff wrote: > Hello Dave Nelson, > > The only reason I say gif is the best is because > the Europeans seem to like gif best with > thir linux systems and since I can deal with > most anything I think we might humor > them so the world can be one big happy > family :-) I got this penpal at the JRC > in Ispra Italy and he uses me to practice his english on > that is where I learned they seem to favor > GIF over everything else. > The Europeans are quite intolerant of inefficiency. > They do noy like americans using heavy paper > in the mail they want you to use something like > tissue paper that is so thin you can see through it. > > Regards; > geoff > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Nelson" > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:53 PM > Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing > > >> >> No way :) that is slow and labourous!!! .... the BEST way is to >> draw the circuit >> diag directly into MS paint >> >> and save as a monochrome bitmap (bmp) then use one of any # of >> programs >> to convert it to a gif I use Thumbsplus its a great prog that I >> have used for >> resizing, recolouring, etc and it converts between most of the current >> pic format >> types. I couldnt live with out it >> In fact cuz a mono bitmap file is only 103kB at my hi resolution, >> most of the time >> I dont even bother to convert it. !!!! >> >> I have been using MS paint for cct drawings for some 12 yrs .... its >> esy to make >> up a page of cct symbols and jst copy and paste to where u need them >> and add a few lines between along with explanation text. >> I have drawn dozens and dozens of ccts this way >> ( without the need to go to an expensive CAD prog.) >> >> check out www.sydneystormcity.com/10GHz-Mod-Tonegen-AFC.bmp >> >> and www.sydneystormcity.com/23GHz-Sys-Block-diag.bmp >> >> for examples (copy and paste into your >> browser :) ) >> >> You have my permission to use these 2 bmp's as a starting point for some >> component symbols etc, if you like :) >> >> cheers >> Dave N >> VK2TDN >> >> At 05:07 AM 12/08/2007 -0700, you wrote: >>> Use a fine point black magic marker on the whitest paper you can find >>> here that is 96 to 98 I think depending on the thickness. >>> 20lb ream vs 22 0r 24 lb. scan this to bmp then convert >>> to gif somehow. HP will not let me scan direct to gif >>> yet gif is the best most efficient forms for B/W drawings. >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: WinSDR board firmware upgrade ? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:16:07 +0000 Hi all Does anyone know where I can get WinSDR board firmware upgrade ? My Borgarnes station board uses firmware v1.1 and I do belive it is buggy. I want to upgrade to version 2.3> if possible. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 10:20:56 -0700 Far Out Man; Im gonna give this a close looking at. Id like to turn my breadboard into a real circuit before I die. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Schmidt" To: Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 4:27 AM Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing > G'day Geoff and Dave > > Short of using Altium designer software from Altium I use a small and > FREE schematic and PCB design software from > > www.expresspcb.com > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing From: "Les LaZar" llazar@.................. Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 12:12:13 -0700 Dave, Your MS Paint-based diagrams are very impressive. I use AutoCAD for this purpose myself. I would be interested in seeing your symbol library as well as knowing of any grid or snap settings in Paint that you use to get line endpoints to match up and place symbols evenly. Good work. Les RLL Instruments ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Nelson" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing > > No way :) that is slow and labourous!!! .... the BEST way is to draw > the circuit > diag directly into MS paint > > and save as a monochrome bitmap (bmp) then use one of any # of > programs > to convert it to a gif I use Thumbsplus its a great prog that I have > used for > resizing, recolouring, etc and it converts between most of the current pic > format > types. I couldnt live with out it > In fact cuz a mono bitmap file is only 103kB at my hi resolution, most of > the time > I dont even bother to convert it. !!!! > > I have been using MS paint for cct drawings for some 12 yrs .... its esy > to make > up a page of cct symbols and jst copy and paste to where u need them > and add a few lines between along with explanation text. > I have drawn dozens and dozens of ccts this way > ( without the need to go to an expensive CAD prog.) > > check out www.sydneystormcity.com/10GHz-Mod-Tonegen-AFC.bmp > > and www.sydneystormcity.com/23GHz-Sys-Block-diag.bmp > > for examples (copy and paste into your browser > :) ) > > You have my permission to use these 2 bmp's as a starting point for some > component symbols etc, if you like :) > > cheers > Dave N > VK2TDN > > At 05:07 AM 12/08/2007 -0700, you wrote: >>Use a fine point black magic marker on the whitest paper you can find >>here that is 96 to 98 I think depending on the thickness. >>20lb ream vs 22 0r 24 lb. scan this to bmp then convert >>to gif somehow. HP will not let me scan direct to gif >>yet gif is the best most efficient forms for B/W drawings. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod pivot on 2 HD flat surface inner ring/holes From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:11:16 -0500 It helps when you take the extra spaces out of the end .... I had read = this article earlier. I have spent the whole time since our last email = trying to get rid of that peak at 4 Hz. I took the jumpers in and out I = went from one end of the pot to the other ... still trying... but = thinking fishing might be a better hobby! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ChrisAtUpw@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Crossed rod pivot on 2 HD flat surface inner ring/holes In a message dated 2007/08/12, dickthomas01@............. writes: The first two Internet sites are not accessible Hi Tom, Try http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/index.html and http://quake.eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm Regards, Chris Chapman
It helps when you take the extra spaces = out of the=20 end .... I had read this article earlier. I have spent the whole time = since our=20 last email trying to get rid of that peak at 4 Hz. I took the jumpers in = and out=20 I went from one end of the pot to the other ... still trying... but = thinking=20 fishing might be a better hobby!
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 = 4:32=20 PM
Subject: Re: Crossed rod pivot = on 2 HD=20 flat surface inner ring/holes

In a=20 message dated 2007/08/12, dickthomas01@.............= =20 writes:

The first two Internet sites are not = accessible

Hi = Tom,

     Try=20 htt= p://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/op/index.html

       = and http://quake= ..eas.gatech.edu/Instruments/LPVERT0.htm

   &nbs= p;  =20 Regards,

       Chris = Chapman=20 Subject: Re: Crossed rod pivot on 2 HD flat surface inner ring/holes From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 07:58:14 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/14, dickthomas01@............. writes: > It helps when you take the extra spaces out of the end .... I had read this > article earlier. I have spent the whole time since our last email trying to > get rid of that peak at 4 Hz. I took the jumpers in and out I went from one > end of the pot to the other ... still trying... Hi Tom, The peaks could either be real, which I suspect, aldhough I don't understand how they would be generated. Alternatively, they might be due to inadequate damping of the geophones and their responding resonantly to noise. However, I would expect that they would have top be grossly underdamped to produce the effect. They might also be of a higher frequency leaking a subharmonic past the low pass filter, but they would need to be large to start with. Regards, Chris In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/14, dickthomas01@............. writes:

It helps when you take the extr= a spaces out of the end .... I had read this article earlier. I have spent t= he whole time since our last email trying to get rid of that peak at 4 Hz. I= took the jumpers in and out I went from one end of the pot to the other ...= still trying...


Hi Tom,

       The peaks could either be real, which I= suspect, aldhough I don't understand how they would be generated.
       Alternatively, they might be due to ina= dequate damping of the geophones and their responding resonantly to noise. H= owever, I would expect that they would have top be grossly underdamped to pr= oduce the effect.
       They might also be of a higher frequenc= y leaking a subharmonic past the low pass filter, but they would need to be=20= large to start with.

       Regards,

       Chris
 Subject: Peru quake From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:23:04 -0500 about twenty minutes after quake -- getting waves at 2 Hz on E-W Lehman = .... anybody else getting this?
about twenty minutes after quake -- = getting waves=20 at 2 Hz on E-W Lehman ... anybody else getting = this?
Subject: RE: Peru quake From: Michael Kimzey mckimzey@........... Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:28:51 -0400 I'm right in the middle of receiving the surface waves. These are the bigg= est waves that I've recorded on my instruments! I'll post to the psn when = things are settled. =20 =20 - Mike =20 From: dickthomas01@................ psn-l@...................... Peru quake= Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:23:04 -0500 about twenty minutes after quake -- getting waves at 2 Hz on E-W Lehman ...= anybody else getting this?= I'm right in the middle of receiving the surface waves.  These are the= biggest waves that I've recorded on my instruments!  I'll post to the= psn when things are settled. 
 
- Mike

 

From: dickthomas01@.............
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: Pe= ru quake
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:23:04 -0500


about twenty minutes after quake -- gettin= g waves at 2 Hz on E-W Lehman ... anybody else getting this?
= Subject: Re: Peru quake From: Stephen & Kathy skmort@............ Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:41:01 -0700 I'm recording 15 second surface waves with my 4.5 sec vertical starting around 00:15:00 UTC!!! The trace itself started about 23:51:46 the 15th UTC Stephen PSN Station #55 near Pilot Hill Calif. USA 38.828N 120.979W Thomas Dick wrote: > about twenty minutes after quake -- getting waves at 2 Hz on E-W > Lehman ... anybody else getting this? I'm recording 15 second surface waves with my 4.5 sec vertical starting around 00:15:00 UTC!!!   The trace itself started about 23:51:46 the 15th UTC
  Stephen
  PSN Station #55
  near Pilot Hill Calif. USA
  38.828N  120.979W

Thomas Dick wrote:
about twenty minutes after quake -- getting waves at 2 Hz on E-W Lehman ... anybody else getting this?
Subject: Re: Peru quake From: "Les LaZar" llazar@.................. Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 18:02:53 -0700 The VolksMeter in Van Nuys, CA picked it up. You can see the traces at = http://www.seismicnet.com/currentseismicity.html in the fourth and fifth = images from the top. Les LaZar RLL Instruments ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Stephen & Kathy=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 5:41 PM Subject: Re: Peru quake I'm recording 15 second surface waves with my 4.5 sec vertical = starting around 00:15:00 UTC!!! The trace itself started about = 23:51:46 the 15th UTC Stephen PSN Station #55 near Pilot Hill Calif. USA 38.828N 120.979W Thomas Dick wrote:=20 about twenty minutes after quake -- getting waves at 2 Hz on E-W = Lehman ... anybody else getting this?
The VolksMeter in Van Nuys, CA picked = it up. =20 You can see the traces at http://www.seis= micnet.com/currentseismicity.html in=20 the fourth and fifth images from the top.
 
Les LaZar
RLL Instruments
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Stephen &=20 Kathy
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, = 2007 5:41=20 PM
Subject: Re: Peru quake

I'm recording 15 second surface = waves with my=20 4.5 sec vertical starting around 00:15:00 UTC!!!   The trace = itself=20 started about 23:51:46 the 15th UTC
  Stephen
  PSN = Station=20 #55
  near Pilot Hill Calif. USA
  38.828N =20 120.979W

Thomas Dick wrote:=20
about twenty minutes after quake -- = getting=20 waves at 2 Hz on E-W Lehman ... anybody else getting=20 this?
Subject: Re: Peru quake From: "Dale Hardy" photon1@........... Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 11:11:51 +1000 Yes, here in Australia 33.05S, 151.64E ,115 degrees, all instruments = a'rocking, Lehman and SG Dale ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Dick=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 10:23 AM Subject: Peru quake about twenty minutes after quake -- getting waves at 2 Hz on E-W = Lehman ... anybody else getting this? -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - Release Date: = 15/08/2007 4:55 PM
Yes, here in Australia 33.05S, 151.64E = ,115=20 degrees, all instruments a'rocking,
 Lehman and=20 SG
Dale
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas Dick
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 = 10:23=20 AM
Subject: Peru quake

about twenty minutes after quake -- = getting waves=20 at 2 Hz on E-W Lehman ... anybody else getting this?

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/955 - = Release Date:=20 15/08/2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: Peru quake From: jonfr@......... Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 21:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Hi I did record the earthquake on both of my 4.5Hz stations. According to EMSC this earthquake was Mw 8.0 in magnitude. Regards. Jón Frímann. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Peru quake From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2007 19:05:47 -0700 (PDT) I recorded shaking for just about 1 hour on my 3 sec horizontal in San Jose, CA. Pete --- Thomas Dick wrote: > about twenty minutes after quake -- getting waves at > 2 Hz on E-W Lehman ... anybody else getting this? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Emails and Dead computer From: "TChannel" tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 06:58:50 -0600 Hi all, I guess the drought is over! I recorded all the recent events, = different computer. So all is well with the Folded Pendulum sensor, = still testing. This computer however is up and running (at this point) but not for = long. I lost my email addresses, I had them back up and lost that drive too. Paul C and Chris C, and others I have corresponded with please email me = again and I will start a new address book. The bad news is I have "recovered" this computer 6 times, change the = harddrive, and so onnnnnnnnnnnnnnn for 5 days. Its 5 yrs old so I = don't what to pay someone to fix it. The good news is That is it running today. and I am going to get a new = computer. Anyone what to see a .jpg of my 08/15/2007 or send me one of theirs? tchannel1@peoplepc.com
Hi all,  I guess the drought is = over!  I=20 recorded all the recent events, different computer.  So all is well = with=20 the Folded Pendulum sensor, still testing.
This computer however is up and running = (at this=20 point) but not for long.
I lost my email addresses,  I had = them back up=20 and lost that drive too.
Paul C and Chris C, and others I have = corresponded=20 with please email me again and I will start a new address = book.
The bad news is I have "recovered" this = computer 6=20 times, change the harddrive, and so onnnnnnnnnnnnnnn for 5 = days.   Its=20 5 yrs old so I don't what to pay someone to fix it.
The good news is That is it running = today. and I am=20 going to get a new computer.
Anyone what to see a .jpg of my = 08/15/2007 or send=20 me one of theirs?
tchannel1@............<= /DIV> Subject: Re: Peru quake From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2007 15:06:23 +0000 Hi all I am wating for a mag 7+ aftershock close to the area where the main earthquake was yesterday. There already has been one Mb 6.2 earthquake. But I belive that this area has more in store then just this one Mw 8.0 earthquake. This problay is going to trigger some earthquakes around the world in then coming weeks. But I do expect that quietness to continue after that settels down. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Utah Mine Disasters - Update From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:03:45 -0500 For those interested, this are links to University of Utah seismology department and updates: http://www.seis.utah.edu/HTML_new/MONRESEARCH/CM/cm_update.htm http://www.seis.utah.edu/ Read the FAQ's, Scientific & Technical Info and Updates. As tragic as all these horrible events have been, it can be a learning tool for us about Stress and Strain within a mountain and its similarities to our "normal", deeper earthquake events. Our individual and combined condolences go out to those families of the deceased and missing. Jerry Payton
For those interested, this are links to University of Utah = seismology=20 department and updates:
 
h= ttp://www.seis.utah.edu/HTML_new/MONRESEARCH/CM/cm_update.htm
 
 
Read the FAQ's, Scientific & Technical Info and Updates.
 
As tragic as all these horrible events have been, it can be a = learning tool=20 for us about Stress and Strain within a mountain and its similarities to = our=20 "normal", deeper earthquake events. 
 
Our individual and combined condolences go out to those families = of the=20 deceased and missing.
 
Jerry Payton
Subject: Finally got to watch one From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 10:20:14 -0400 Folks, Just finishing up a vertical machine here and I put it online last night. I work from home so the siesmo screen is usually on. I just happen to look over and see a signal "growing" across the screen. The recent 5.9 in Peru unfolded before my very eyes. It was kind of exciting.. PauLC W1VLF __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Earthquake at 400 km depth ? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 03:35:17 +0000 Hi all I want to point out this strange earthquake, but it is at depth of 400 km. Where I would only expect the depth to be limited to ~40 km max. But the earthquake was on a rift zone. This earthquake did happen in Gulf of Aden 18th of August at 01:00:58 UTC. More info here, http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Ddetail&id=3D53475# (Temp, link, subject to a change).=20 If this depth gets confermed, I am wondering what is going on. There was also a earthquake at 200 km depth near Azores Islands today, I find it strange because it is on a rift zone, not a subduction zone. The azores Islands earthquakes can be seen here, http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=3Dcurrent&sub=3Dlist Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake at 400 km depth ? From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:45:03 +1000 where did you get 400km deep from Jon the data on that page you gave was 33km deep (the relatively standard value given for crustal events) Magnitude mb 4.9 Region GULF OF ADEN Date time 2007-08-18 at 01:00:22.8 UTC Location 13.19 N ; 49.66 E Depth 33 km Distances 161 km S Al-mukalla (pop 258,132 ; local time 04:00 2007-08-18) cheers Dave N At 03:35 AM 18/08/2007 +0000, you wrote: >Hi all > >I want to point out this strange earthquake, but it is at depth of 400 >km. Where I would only expect the depth to be limited to ~40 km max. But >the earthquake was on a rift zone. > >This earthquake did happen in Gulf of Aden 18th of August at 01:00:58 >UTC. More info here, >http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=current&sub=detail&id=53475#
where did you get 400km deep from Jon
the data on that page you gave was 33km deep  (the relatively standard value
given for crustal events)

Magnitude mb 4.9 Region GULF OF ADEN
Date time 2007-08-18 at 01:00:22.8 UTC
Location 13.19 N ; 49.66 E
Depth 33 km
Distances 161 km S Al-mukalla (pop 258,132 ; local time 04:00 2007-08-18)

cheers
Dave N





At 03:35 AM 18/08/2007 +0000, you wrote:
Hi all

I want to point out this strange earthquake, but it is at depth of 400
km. Where I would only expect the depth to be limited to ~40 km max. But
the earthquake was on a rift zone.

This earthquake did happen in Gulf of Aden 18th of August at 01:00:58
UTC. More info here,
http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=current&sub=detail&id=53475#

Subject: Re: Earthquake at 400 km depth ? From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 16:47:34 +1000 Jon (oops hit the send too quick :) ) ...... and the Azores events listed at 10km deep not 200km 10km would be pretty standard for mid Atlantic ridge events would would be expected to be very shallow cheers Dave N >If this depth gets confermed, I am wondering what is going on. There was >also a earthquake at 200 km depth near Azores Islands today, I find it >strange because it is on a rift zone, not a subduction zone. The azores >Islands earthquakes can be seen here, >http://www.emsc-csem.org/index.php?page=current&sub=list >Regards. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake at 400 km depth ? From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:20:01 +0000 Hi The depth was in the automatic data. But EMSC has corrected that data now and the depth was 33 km, not 400 km. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Best Way TO show a simple drawing From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 22:44:45 +1000 Hi Les, thanks for the good words :) always appreciated. Unfortunately I can't afford Autocad bit out of my price range. I couldn't really justify it anyway its pretty rare for me to do PCB layouts As a result MS Paint fills the bill nicely as a pure drawing prog. It does NOT have any kind of grid/snap settings. I make lots of use of the magnify mode to do the close in work. Where you are able to draw pixel by pixel if need be. Having used this prog for many yrs now I can do diag's reasonably quickly. Often / usually I will load into screen a previously drawn cct and then just start copying and pasting lines text and other cct symbols as needed to create a new drawing. I dont know if you saw the 23GHz TX drawing for the board at the top of this page http://www.sydneystormcity.com/24GHz.htm click on the circuit diag link in the text a few lines down from the top of the page. One of my Favourites with multi layering of the board, it made track tracing a real challenge. Pretty sure I got it close to correct .... enuf to get a detailed idea of the cct operation anyway ... for Ham use ;) thanks again cheers Dave Nelson VK2TDN At 12:12 PM 13/08/2007 -0700, you wrote: >Dave, >Your MS Paint-based diagrams are very impressive. I use AutoCAD for this >purpose myself. >I would be interested in seeing your symbol library as well as knowing of >any grid or snap settings in Paint that you use to get line endpoints to >match up and place symbols evenly. >Good work. >Les >RLL Instruments Hi Les,
              thanks for the good words :) always appreciated.
   Unfortunately I can't afford Autocad   bit out of my price range.    I couldn't
really justify it anyway   its pretty rare for me to do PCB layouts
As a result MS Paint fills the bill nicely as a pure drawing prog.   It does NOT
have any kind of grid/snap settings.
   I make lots of use of the magnify mode to do the close in work. Where you
are able to draw pixel by pixel if need be.   Having used this prog for many yrs
now I can do diag's reasonably quickly.  
Often / usually I will load into screen a previously drawn cct and then just start
copying and pasting lines text and other cct symbols as needed to create a new drawing.
  I dont know if you saw the 23GHz TX drawing for the board at the top of this
page  http://www.sydneystormcity.com/24GHz.htm     click on the circuit diag
link in the text a few lines down from the top of the page.  One of my Favourites
with multi layering of the board, it made track tracing a real challenge.   Pretty
sure I got it close to correct .... enuf to get a detailed idea of the cct operation
anyway ... for Ham use   ;)

thanks again
cheers
Dave Nelson
VK2TDN

At 12:12 PM 13/08/2007 -0700, you wrote:
Dave,
Your MS Paint-based diagrams are very impressive.  I use AutoCAD for this purpose myself.
I would be interested in seeing your symbol library as well as knowing of any grid or snap settings in Paint that you use to get line endpoints to match up and place symbols evenly.
Good work.
Les
RLL Instruments

Subject: another quake in Utah From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 09:40:27 -0500 this one wasn't in same area as mine....right __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Almost back in business From: "TChannel" tchannel1@............ Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:01:38 -0600 Hi Folks, Today I can send email, and I have most of my stuff back in = operation. PaulC. please email me, lost your address. Nice recording = of the Mid Atlantic! Paul! I will post my .psn maybe today as I got it also. I can't say my problems are over, new hdd, but things are looking = better. The Folded One, is working nicely, no problems, but I still have some = improvements to make, when and if I can this computer issue resolved. I did get all the action of the 15th and 16th WOW! As good luck would = have it Mother Linda was home, not having "cupcakes" and saw the big 8.0 = come in. I asked her if she felt anything, and she said, no! We both = were speechless. Thanks, Ted
Hi Folks,  Today I can send email, = and I have=20 most of my stuff back in operation.   PaulC. please email me, = lost=20 your address.  Nice recording of the Mid Atlantic!  = Paul!
 
I will post my .psn maybe today as I = got it=20 also.
 
I can't say my problems are over, new = hdd, but=20 things are looking better.
 
The Folded One, is working nicely, no = problems, but=20 I still have some improvements to make, when and if I can this computer = issue=20 resolved.
 
I did get all the action of the 15th = and 16th=20 WOW!  As good luck would have it Mother Linda was home, not having=20 "cupcakes" and saw the big 8.0 come in.   I asked her if she = felt=20 anything, and she said, no!   We both were = speechless.
Thanks, Ted
Subject: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 12:15:56 -0400 Hello, Having nearly completed my vertical sensor and built a nice little Celotex house for it to live in... my thoughts turn to refinement of my Horizontal sensor. However when that is completed it would be rally great to be able to monitor both systems simultaneously. Several folks post all three axis's all with the same time line using Winquake. Can anyone explain how this is done? I don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors simultaneously. What are my options. Thank you for all your previous help on building my machines. PauLC W1VLF
Hello,
 
Having=20 nearly completed my vertical sensor and built a nice little Celotex = house for it=20 to live in... my thoughts turn to refinement of my Horizontal=20 sensor.
 
However when that is completed it would be = rally great=20 to be able to monitor both systems simultaneously.
 
Several folks post all three axis's all with = the same=20 time line using Winquake.
 
Can=20 anyone explain how this is done?
 
I=20 don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors=20 simultaneously.
What=20 are my options.
Thank=20 you for all your previous help on building my = machines.
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 
 
Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 10:26:29 -0700 Paul The datalogger, WinSDR is set up to handle 8 channels. In the setup you can specify how many channels you want to record. There is also an option that allows you to automatically save data in dataset format, or you can create the datasets from individual files. To display more than one channel, you need to upgrade WinQuake to version 2.9.8. Once installed, you will be able to be able to view multiple channels. Bob Hancock _____ From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Paul Cianciolo Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 09:16 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. Hello, Having nearly completed my vertical sensor and built a nice little Celotex house for it to live in... my thoughts turn to refinement of my Horizontal sensor. However when that is completed it would be rally great to be able to monitor both systems simultaneously. Several folks post all three axis's all with the same time line using Winquake. Can anyone explain how this is done? I don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors simultaneously. What are my options. Thank you for all your previous help on building my machines. PauLC W1VLF

Paul

 

The datalogger, WinSDR is set up to = handle 8 channels.  In the setup you can specify how many channels you = want to record.  There is also an option that allows you to automatically = save data in dataset format, or you can create the datasets from individual = files.

 

To display more than one channel, = you need to upgrade WinQuake to version 2.9.8.  Once installed, you will be = able to be able to view multiple channels.

 

Bob = Hancock

 

From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Paul Cianciolo
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, = 2007 09:16
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: Running 2 = channels on Amaseis... Can it be done.

 

Hello,

 

Having nearly completed my vertical = sensor and built a nice little Celotex house for it to live in... my thoughts = turn to refinement of my Horizontal sensor.

 

However when that is completed it = would be rally great to be able to monitor both systems = simultaneously.

 

Several folks post all three axis's = all with the same time line using Winquake.

 

Can anyone explain how this is = done?

 

I don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors = simultaneously.

What are my = options.

Thank you for all your previous = help on building my machines.

 

PauLC

W1VLF

 

 

Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 13:30:59 -0400 Bob, Thank you for the information. Does running WinSDR preclude me from using my DATAQ 154 12 bit A/D? Would you happen to know?? PauLC -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Bob Hancock Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:26 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. Paul The datalogger, WinSDR is set up to handle 8 channels. In the setup you can specify how many channels you want to record. There is also an option that allows you to automatically save data in dataset format, or you can create the datasets from individual files. To display more than one channel, you need to upgrade WinQuake to version 2.9.8. Once installed, you will be able to be able to view multiple channels. Bob Hancock ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Paul Cianciolo Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 09:16 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. Hello, Having nearly completed my vertical sensor and built a nice little Celotex house for it to live in... my thoughts turn to refinement of my Horizontal sensor. However when that is completed it would be rally great to be able to monitor both systems simultaneously. Several folks post all three axis's all with the same time line using Winquake. Can anyone explain how this is done? I don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors simultaneously. What are my options. Thank you for all your previous help on building my machines. PauLC W1VLF
Bob,
Thank=20 you for the information.
 
Does=20 running WinSDR preclude me from using my DATAQ 154 12 bit=20 A/D?
Would=20 you happen to know??
 
PauLC
 
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of Bob=20 Hancock
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:26 PM
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on = Amaseis...=20 Can it be done.

Paul

 

The = datalogger,=20 WinSDR is set up to handle 8 channels.  In the setup you can = specify how=20 many channels you want to record.  There is also an option that = allows=20 you to automatically save data in dataset format, or you can create = the=20 datasets from individual files.

 

To display = more than=20 one channel, you need to upgrade WinQuake to version 2.9.8.  Once = installed, you will be able to be able to view multiple=20 channels.

 

Bob=20 Hancock

 

From:=20 psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Paul = Cianciolo
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007=20 09:16
To:=20 psn-l@..............
Subject:=20 Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be=20 done.

 

Hello,

 

Having = nearly=20 completed my vertical sensor and built a nice little Celotex house for = it to=20 live in... my thoughts turn to refinement of my Horizontal=20 sensor.

 

However = when that is=20 completed it would be rally great to be able to monitor both systems=20 simultaneously.

 

Several = folks post=20 all three axis's all with the same time line using=20 Winquake.

 

Can anyone = explain=20 how this is done?

 

I don't see = where=20 Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors=20 simultaneously.

What are my = options.

Thank you = for all=20 your previous help on building my = machines.

 

PauLC

W1VLF

 

 

= Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 11:00:52 -0700 Paul - I cannot comment because I use Larry's A/D board. Perhaps someone who runs multiple channels on the DATAQ system can comment. Bob Hancock _____ From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Paul Cianciolo Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:31 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. Bob, Thank you for the information. Does running WinSDR preclude me from using my DATAQ 154 12 bit A/D? Would you happen to know?? PauLC -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Bob Hancock Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 1:26 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. Paul The datalogger, WinSDR is set up to handle 8 channels. In the setup you can specify how many channels you want to record. There is also an option that allows you to automatically save data in dataset format, or you can create the datasets from individual files. To display more than one channel, you need to upgrade WinQuake to version 2.9.8. Once installed, you will be able to be able to view multiple channels. Bob Hancock _____ From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Paul Cianciolo Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 09:16 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. Hello, Having nearly completed my vertical sensor and built a nice little Celotex house for it to live in... my thoughts turn to refinement of my Horizontal sensor. However when that is completed it would be rally great to be able to monitor both systems simultaneously. Several folks post all three axis's all with the same time line using Winquake. Can anyone explain how this is done? I don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors simultaneously. What are my options. Thank you for all your previous help on building my machines. PauLC W1VLF

Paul = –

 

I cannot comment because I use = Larry’s A/D board.  Perhaps someone who runs multiple channels on the DATAQ = system can comment.

 

Bob = Hancock

 

From: = psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Paul Cianciolo
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, = 2007 10:31
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: RE: Running 2 = channels on Amaseis... Can it be done.

 

Bob,

Thank you for the = information.

 

Does running WinSDR preclude me = from using my DATAQ 154 12 bit A/D?

Would you happen to = know??

 

PauLC

 

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of Bob Hancock
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, = 2007 1:26 PM
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: RE: Running 2 = channels on Amaseis... Can it be done.

Paul

 

The datalogger, WinSDR is set up to = handle 8 channels.  In the setup you can specify how many channels you = want to record.  There is also an option that allows you to automatically = save data in dataset format, or you can create the datasets from individual = files.

 

To display more than one channel, = you need to upgrade WinQuake to version 2.9.8.  Once installed, you will be = able to be able to view multiple channels.

 

Bob = Hancock

 

From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Paul Cianciolo
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, = 2007 09:16
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: Running 2 = channels on Amaseis... Can it be done.

 

Hello,

 

Having nearly completed my vertical = sensor and built a nice little Celotex house for it to live in... my thoughts = turn to refinement of my Horizontal sensor.

 

However when that is completed it = would be rally great to be able to monitor both systems = simultaneously.

 

Several folks post all three axis's = all with the same time line using Winquake.

 

Can anyone explain how this is = done?

 

I don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors = simultaneously.

What are my = options.

Thank you for all your previous = help on building my machines.

 

PauLC

W1VLF

 

 

Subject: Re: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:35:16 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/28, Paulc@........ writes: > Having nearly completed my vertical sensor ... my thoughts turn to > refinement of my Horizontal sensor. > However when that is completed it would be really great to be able to > monitor both systems simultaneously. > Several folks post all three axis's all with the same time line using > Winquake. > Can anyone explain how this is done? Hi Paul, Winquake / WinSDR are multiple channel systems, by design, originally 4, but extended to 8 with Larry's current ADC. Larry does provide a shell program to which you can write a driver, but I don't know if one is available for Dataq devices? > I don't see where Amaseis can draw multiple graph from different sensors > simultaneously. > What are my options. > Thank you for all your previous help on building my machines. AmaSeis is a single sensor program, designed for use in Schools with the IRIS AS1 seismometers. So as not to restrict the equipment that schools can use, some other ADC input driver systems like Dataq have been added. Since your computer is multitasking, you can run two copies of AmaSeis, no problem, but you will need two ports and two ADCs. (Someone correct me If I am now wrong, please?) I would be very useful if AmaSeis could handle two channels.... Alternatively, you can use the Dataq software for recording up to 4 channels. I think that you can later convert to .sac format. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/28, Paulc@........ writes:

Having nearly completed my vert= ical sensor ... my thoughts turn to refinement of my Horizontal sensor. However when that is completed it would be really great to be able to monit= or both systems simultaneously.
Several folks post all three axis's all with the same time line using Winq= uake.
Can anyone explain how this is done?


Hi Paul,

       Winquake / WinSDR are multiple channel=20= systems, by design, originally 4, but extended to 8 with Larry's current ADC= ..
       Larry does provide a shell program to w= hich you can write a driver, but I don't know if one is available for Dataq=20= devices?

I don't see where Amaseis can=20= draw multiple graph from different sensors simultaneously.
What are my options.
Thank you for all your previous help on building my machines.

       AmaSeis is a single sensor program, des= igned for use in Schools with the IRIS AS1 seismometers. So as not to restri= ct the equipment that schools can use, some other ADC input driver systems l= ike Dataq have been added.

       Since your computer is multitasking, yo= u can run two copies of AmaSeis, no problem, but you will need two ports and= two ADCs. (Someone correct me If I am now wrong, please?)
       I would be very useful if AmaSeis could= handle two channels....

       Alternatively, you can use the Dataq so= ftware for recording up to 4 channels. I think that you can later convert to= .sac format.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:29:44 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/28, Paulc@........ writes: > Having nearly completed my vertical sensor ... my thoughts turn to > refinement of my Horizontal sensor. > However when that is completed it would be really great to be able to > monitor both systems simultaneously. > Several folks post all three axes all with the same time line using Winquake. > Can anyone explain how this is done? Hi Paul, Please browse my web pages at: _http://www.jclahr.com/science/mcclure/index.html_ (http://www.jclahr.com/science/mcclure/index.html) You will be able to download all the software you need to run up to four channels, using your Dataq device, and prepare multichannel WinQuake files from the WinDaq format files. Please feel free to ask me for help in getting started. I use a DI-154 quite successfully with my software and log three channels. Your other alternative is to buy Larry Cochrane's equipment and use WinSDR. Amaseis is pretty much useless for recording more that one channel. You need an A/D and a port for each sensor. I wish more people would learn how to prepare multichannel WinQuake files. Read the WinQuake Beta Release notes at _http://www.seismicnet.com/wqdocs/wqbeta.html_ (http://www.seismicnet.com/wqdocs/wqbeta.html) Bob McClure PSN Station REM Locust Valley, NY ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
In a message dated 2007/08/28, Paulc@........ writes:
> Having ne= arly=20 completed my vertical sensor ... my thoughts turn to
> refinement of=20= my=20 Horizontal sensor.
> However when that is completed it would be reall= y=20 great to be able to
> monitor both systems simultaneously.
>&nb= sp;=20 Several folks post all three axes all with the same time line=20 using Winquake.
>  Can anyone explain how this is done?
 
Hi Paul,
 
  Please browse my web pages at:
 
http://www.jclahr.= com/science/mcclure/index.html
 
  You will be able to download all the software you need to run up= to=20 four channels, using your Dataq device, and prepare multichannel WinQuake fi= les=20 from the WinDaq format files. Please feel free to ask me for help in getting= =20 started. I use a DI-154 quite successfully with my software and log three=20 channels.
 
  Your other alternative is to buy Larry Cochrane's equipment and=20= use=20 WinSDR.
 
  Amaseis is pretty much useless for recording more that one chann= el.=20 You need an A/D and a port for each sensor.
 
  I wish more people would learn how to prepare multichannel WinQu= ake=20 files. Read the WinQuake Beta Release notes at http://www.seismicnet.= com/wqdocs/wqbeta.html 
 
Bob McClure
PSN Station REM
Locust Valley, NY



Get= a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: RE: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:48:47 -0400 Bob, I have downloaded all the necessary files and I can get 1 channel working but not 2. I must also be doing something else wrong because the screen is very small on the one channel that does work. I am not very good at configuring software. PauLC W1VLF -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Bobhelenmcclure@....... Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:30 PM To: psn-l@............... Paulc@........ Subject: Re: Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done. In a message dated 2007/08/28, Paulc@........ writes: > Having nearly completed my vertical sensor ... my thoughts turn to > refinement of my Horizontal sensor. > However when that is completed it would be really great to be able to > monitor both systems simultaneously. > Several folks post all three axes all with the same time line using Winquake. > Can anyone explain how this is done? Hi Paul, Please browse my web pages at: http://www.jclahr.com/science/mcclure/index.html You will be able to download all the software you need to run up to four channels, using your Dataq device, and prepare multichannel WinQuake files from the WinDaq format files. Please feel free to ask me for help in getting started. I use a DI-154 quite successfully with my software and log three channels. Your other alternative is to buy Larry Cochrane's equipment and use WinSDR. Amaseis is pretty much useless for recording more that one channel. You need an A/D and a port for each sensor. I wish more people would learn how to prepare multichannel WinQuake files. Read the WinQuake Beta Release notes at http://www.seismicnet.com/wqdocs/wqbeta.html Bob McClure PSN Station REM Locust Valley, NY ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Bob,
 
I have downloaded all the = necessary files=20 and I can get 1 channel working but not 2.
I must also be doing = something else=20 wrong because the screen is very small on the one channel that does=20 work.
 
I am not=20 very good at configuring software.
 
PauLC
W1VLF 
 
 -----Original=20 Message-----
From: psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of=20 Bobhelenmcclure@.......
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 = 10:30=20 PM
To: psn-l@............... Paulc@........
Subject: = Re:=20 Running 2 channels on Amaseis... Can it be done.

In a message dated 2007/08/28, Paulc@........ writes:
> = Having=20 nearly completed my vertical sensor ... my thoughts turn to
>=20 refinement of my Horizontal sensor.
> However when that is = completed it=20 would be really great to be able to
> monitor both systems=20 simultaneously.
>  Several folks post all three axes all = with the=20 same time line using Winquake.
>  Can anyone explain = how this=20 is done?
 
Hi Paul,
 
  Please browse my web pages at:
 
http://www.jcla= hr.com/science/mcclure/index.html
 
  You will be able to download all the software you need to = run up=20 to four channels, using your Dataq device, and prepare multichannel = WinQuake=20 files from the WinDaq format files. Please feel free to ask me for = help in=20 getting started. I use a DI-154 quite successfully with my software = and log=20 three channels.
 
  Your other alternative is to buy Larry Cochrane's = equipment and=20 use WinSDR.
 
  Amaseis is pretty much useless for recording more that one = channel. You need an A/D and a port for each sensor.
 
  I wish more people would learn how to prepare multichannel = WinQuake files. Read the WinQuake Beta Release notes at http://www.seismicn= et.com/wqdocs/wqbeta.html 
 
Bob McClure
PSN Station REM
Locust Valley, NY



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: .psn to .wav From: tchannel1@............ Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 07:00:19 -0600 Hi Folks, With all of my computer problems, which I hope are now fixed, = I lost my links to created .wav files from .psn. Please would send me = those again? This time I will back them up better. Thanks, Ted
Hi Folks,  With all of my computer = problems,=20 which I hope are now fixed, I lost my links to created .wav files from=20 ..psn.   Please would send me those again?   This = time I will=20 back them up better.  Thanks, Ted
Subject: WinQuake Volume Files From: Roger Sparks rsparks@.......... Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2007 06:49:04 -0700 Hi All, Bob McClure made the suggestion that more people use the WinQuake volume file option which provides a very convient way of combining up to three traces into one PSN file. There are some limitations on the multiple trace option. /Only event files that have the same start time, sample count, sample rate and sensor type (displacement, velocity or accelerometer) can be added to the the same Event Window/. With an initial file displayed, use the WinQuake File/Add menu to find and pick the additional files that may be added. /Only files saved at the same time will show on the directory which is brought up by the Add menu/. A volume file can also be made using filtered data so that both the original and filtered traces can be displayed on one screen. The Add menu is no help here because the original and filtered files have been saved at different times. Here is a method around this limitation which I previously posted in February of 2006: Assume the goal is to filter a recording and display both the filtered and unfiltered trace in one window. The steps in WinQuake: 1. WinQuake opens with files listed in the "Open" screen. Select the quake to be displayed and click on "Open File" button 2. Perform the filter operation and save the filtered file with a new name. This is done in the "File Save" menu by modifying the name in the "File Name" window. Click the "OK" button. 3. Close the window containing the filtered file. That should put you back to the "Open" screen with the list of event files which now contains the filtered file. 4. Select both the filtered and unfiltered files by using the shift key while selecting the second file. Both files should be highlighted. Click the "Open File" button. 5. You should now see the traces from both files in the main WinQuake window. Click the "Save" button. 6. In the "File Save" window, you will see both names in separate "File Name" windows. Find the "Dataset Volume" check/button and click to place a check in the box One of the file names will disappear, leaving only one file name. Modify the name (if desired) and click the "OK" button. Both files will be saved as a volume with the modified name. 7. Here is a link to the volume that I made as I typed these instructions. http://www.seismicnet.com/quakes/0602/060211.114712.ebgztwo.psn Once opened, you can look at either individual file by clicking the "View" button. The drop-down menu choice "Display Record" or "Select Record" both give drop-down menu choices to examine the traces individually. My thanks to Bob who helped and inspired me to learn how to use this new WinQuake feature. Thanks also to Larry Cochrane who wrote WinQuake with all its useful features. Roger __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: swinging gate vs. folded pendulum From: "Chuck Burch" ciburch@........... Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 09:47:02 -0600 Being new to the home-built seismograph business I wonder about the advantages/disadvantages of the "swinging gate" vs. the folded pendulum designs for horizontal component seismometers. The swinging gate appears to have the advantage of simplicity requiring just two pivots while the FP requires eight. Chuck I. Burch __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: swinging gate vs. folded pendulum From: tchannel1@............ Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 10:44:41 -0600 Hi Chuck, I have built both types. I have notes, pictures, and do's and don'ts as I see them. I can say the folded pendulum was harder for me to build, primarily because It was my first and I knew very little about the principal. I think reguarding these two type, their results are about the same. There is more information avail. for the Lehman. That is one big advantage. Ted ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Burch" To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:47 AM Subject: swinging gate vs. folded pendulum > > Being new to the home-built seismograph business I wonder about the > advantages/disadvantages of the "swinging gate" vs. the folded pendulum > designs > for horizontal component seismometers. The swinging gate appears to have > the > advantage of simplicity requiring just two pivots while the FP requires > eight. > > Chuck I. Burch > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: swinging gate vs. folded pendulum From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 13:55:14 EDT In a message dated 2007/08/31, ciburch@........... writes: > Being new to the home-built seismograph business I wonder about the > advantages / disadvantages of the "swinging gate" vs. the folded pendulum > designs > for horizontal component seismometers. The swinging gate appears to have > the > advantage of simplicity requiring just two pivots while the FP requires > eight. > > Chuck I. Burch Hi Chuck, The swinging gate type is probably quite a bit easier to make and likely requires less skill to set up. The setup tilt sensitivities are the same. You are aiming for a sensor with a 15 to 30 second period, to bring in the long period Love and Rayleigh waves at ~20 sec. I suggest that you use either ball on a plane or a crossed roller design of hinge for a swinging gate, but you can also use a single fine piano wire in tension. The T frame can be made out of 3" x1" U channel Aluminum with 1/8" thick corner plates. Make the whole seismometer as 'one item'. This is very much easier to set up and adjust. Use NdFeB magnet + Copper plate damping. I use SS nuts washers and bolts from a boat / marine chandler. They are a bit more expensive, but they are OK with Al and they don't rust. Ordinary steel rusts when in contact with Al. You will need a thermally insulated enclosure to protect it from air movements / drafts. We usually use 2" thick Celotex, gaffer taped and stuck together with foam grouting, both from a builder's merchant. You can make widows with two sheets of mylar transparency film for laser printers. You want to be able to visually check the lateral balance of the seismometer, which may drift with time, without removing the cover. You can also make a horizontal sensor using a water manometer and plastic tube, but you will have to solder your own electronics to a prepared design. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/08/31, ciburch@........... writes:

Being new to the home-built sei= smograph business I wonder about the
advantages / disadvantages of the "swinging gate" vs. the folded pendulum de= signs
for horizontal component seismometers.  The swinging gate appears to ha= ve the
advantage of simplicity requiring just two pivots while the FP requires eigh= t.

Chuck I. Burch


Hi Chuck,

       The swinging gate type is probably quit= e a bit easier to make and likely requires less skill to set up. The setup t= ilt sensitivities are the same.

       You are aiming for a sensor with a 15 t= o 30 second period, to bring in the long period Love and Rayleigh waves at ~= 20 sec.

       I suggest that you use either ball on a= plane or a crossed roller design of hinge for a swinging gate, but you can=20= also use a single fine piano wire in tension.

       The T frame can be made out of 3" x1" U= channel Aluminum with 1/8" thick corner plates. Make the whole seismomet= er as 'one item'. This is very much easier to set up and adjust. Use NdF= eB magnet + Copper plate damping. I use SS nuts washers and bolts from a boa= t / marine chandler. They are a bit more expensive, but they are OK with Al=20= and they don't rust. Ordinary steel rusts when in contact with Al.

       You will need a thermally insulated enc= losure to protect it from air movements / drafts. We usually use 2" thick Ce= lotex, gaffer taped and stuck together with foam grouting, both from a build= er's merchant. You can make widows with two sheets of mylar transparency fil= m for laser printers. You want to be able to visually check the lateral bala= nce of the seismometer, which may drift with time, without removing the cove= r.

       You can also make a horizontal sensor u= sing a water manometer and plastic tube, but you will have to solder your ow= n electronics to a prepared design.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: swinging gate vs. folded pendulum From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:00:22 -0700 Hello Chris; Is it possible to translate motion from vertical to horizontal so the vertical velocity geophone will be low and long instead of tall and long. Sort of like an internal combustion engine will translate linear motion to rotory motion. loss of vertical sensitivity ? increases in appearent noise ?? It might possibly be easier to handle such a device when buring it in the ground. A velocity sensor is little more than a electric generator, I think. Regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:55 AM Subject: Re: swinging gate vs. folded pendulum > In a message dated 2007/08/31, ciburch@........... writes: > >> Being new to the home-built seismograph business I wonder about the >> advantages / disadvantages of the "swinging gate" vs. the folded pendulum >> designs >> for horizontal component seismometers. The swinging gate appears to have >> the >> advantage of simplicity requiring just two pivots while the FP requires >> eight. >> >> Chuck I. Burch > > Hi Chuck, > > The swinging gate type is probably quite a bit easier to make and > likely requires less skill to set up. The setup tilt sensitivities are the same. > > You are aiming for a sensor with a 15 to 30 second period, to bring in > the long period Love and Rayleigh waves at ~20 sec. > > I suggest that you use either ball on a plane or a crossed roller > design of hinge for a swinging gate, but you can also use a single fine piano wire > in tension. > > The T frame can be made out of 3" x1" U channel Aluminum with 1/8" > thick corner plates. Make the whole seismometer as 'one item'. This is very much > easier to set up and adjust. Use NdFeB magnet + Copper plate damping. I use SS > nuts washers and bolts from a boat / marine chandler. They are a bit more > expensive, but they are OK with Al and they don't rust. Ordinary steel rusts when > in contact with Al. > > You will need a thermally insulated enclosure to protect it from air > movements / drafts. We usually use 2" thick Celotex, gaffer taped and stuck > together with foam grouting, both from a builder's merchant. You can make widows > with two sheets of mylar transparency film for laser printers. You want to be > able to visually check the lateral balance of the seismometer, which may drift > with time, without removing the cover. > > You can also make a horizontal sensor using a water manometer and > plastic tube, but you will have to solder your own electronics to a prepared > design. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Kuril Islands quake From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:47:17 -0500 Horizontal units seem to have a lot of artifacts here in southern = Indiana .. anyone else see this?
Horizontal units seem to have a lot of = artifacts=20 here in southern Indiana .. anyone else see = this?
Subject: Re: Kuril Islands quake From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 04:42:59 -0700 The best way to get rid of human artifacts is to limit your interest area below 2Hz and if 5 second waves bother you which most probably is true you make a bandwidth flat between 2 or 3 seconds and 2 Hz If you have vehicular traffic or construction in your geographical area you may very well need to do this. You will still get false alarms with heavy trucks like trash trucks or septic trucks or fire trucks. If you want to see a good idea of what this range looks like see the TUC station online. http://www.geo.arizona.edu/saso/Earthquakes/Current/tuc_sp.html It updates itself if you keep watching. regards; geoff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Dick" To: Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:47 AM Subject: Kuril Islands quake Horizontal units seem to have a lot of artifacts here in southern Indiana .. anyone else see this? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Filtering From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:46:06 EDT Hi Ted, I have been looking at your event files, and your filtering does not make any sense to me. For example file 070902.011039.tcidf.psn show the following filters applied: 1. IIR Filter BW LP Freq: 0.1 Hz Poles: 2 2. IIR Filter BW HP Freq: 1 Hz Poles: 2 The first filter attenuates frequencies higher than 0.1 Hz. The second filter attenuates frequencies lower than 1.0 Hz. The usual filtering is to apply a lowpass filter to attenuate frequencies greater than 1 Hz, and a highpass filter to attentuate frequencies lower than, say, 0.05 Hz. The result is a bandpass filter for frequencies over the range of 0.05 Hz to 1 Hz. What you have done is to essentially exclude almost all frequencies, leaving a tiny response within the 0.1 to 1 Hz interval. The very low amplitude of your waveform after filtering confirms my belief. Your LP cutoff frequency should be higher, not lower, than your HP cutoff. Please download and inspect my file 070902.0115.rem.psn to see the filtering I used for the same event. The filtering for channel z reads: 1. Sensor Period: 4.52s Sensor Q: 0.7 Filtered Period: 40s 2. Butterworth Order 2 HighPass backward Corner Period: 40s 3. Butterworth Order 2 LowPass dblpass-no lag Corner Period: 1s These filters are my own design, and are available in my utility WinQuake filter utility, WQFilter.exe. The first filter extends the natural period of my vertical sensor from 4.5 seconds to 40 seconds. The second filter is a special highpass filter excluding frequencies less than 0.025 Hz and executed backward in time. The third filter is executed both forward in time and backward in time and excludes frequencies greater than 1 Hz. The end result of my filtering is a passband extending from 0.025 Hz to 1.0 Hz, without any time delay or phase shift introduced. Could you email me an unfiltered version of 070902.011039.tcidf.psn? Also, please describe your vertical sensor and its measured or estimated natural period and damping. I would like to try my own filtering on it. Cheers, Bob ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Hi Ted,
 
I have been looking at your event files, and your filtering does not ma= ke=20 any sense to me. For example file 070902.011039.tcidf.psn show the following= =20 filters applied:
 
1. IIR Filter BW LP Freq: 0.1 Hz  Poles: 2
2. IIR Filter BW HP= =20 Freq: 1 Hz  Poles: 2
 
The first filter attenuates frequencies higher than 0.1 Hz.
The seco= nd=20 filter attenuates frequencies lower than 1.0 Hz.
 
The usual filtering is to apply a lowpass filter to attenuate frequenci= es=20 greater than 1 Hz, and a highpass filter to attentuate frequencies lower tha= n,=20 say, 0.05 Hz. The result is a bandpass filter for frequencies over the range= of=20 0.05 Hz to 1 Hz. What you have done is to essentially exclude almost all=20 frequencies, leaving a tiny response within the 0.1 to 1 Hz interval. The ve= ry=20 low amplitude of your waveform after filtering confirms my belief. Your LP=20 cutoff frequency should be higher, not lower, than your HP cutoff.
 
Please download and inspect my file 070902.0115.rem.psn to see the=20 filtering I used for the same event. The filtering for channel z reads:
 
1. Sensor Period: 4.52s Sensor Q: 0.7 Filtered Period: 40s
2.=20 Butterworth Order 2 HighPass backward Corner Period: 40s
3. Butterworth O= rder=20 2 LowPass dblpass-no lag Corner Period: 1s
 
These filters are my own design, and are available in my utility WinQua= ke=20 filter utility, WQFilter.exe.

The first filter extends the natural period of my vertical sensor f= rom=20 4.5 seconds to 40 seconds.
 
The second filter is a special highpass filter excluding frequencies le= ss=20 than 0.025 Hz and executed backward in time.
 
The third filter is executed both forward in time and backward in time=20= and=20 excludes frequencies greater than 1 Hz. The end result of my filtering is a=20 passband extending from 0.025 Hz to 1.0 Hz, without any time delay or phase=20 shift introduced.
 
Could you email me an unfiltered version of 070902.011039.tcidf.psn? Al= so,=20 please describe your vertical sensor and its measured or estimated natural=20 period and damping. I would like to try my own filtering on it.
 
Cheers,
 
Bob



Get= a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: Re: Filtering From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:52:45 -0500 Bob, Thank you for cleaning the FUZZ in my brain about filtering. I don't know why, but I have always had a "mental block" when it came to filtering as-well-as the FFT usage. When I finish building my sensors, I'll sit down and STUDY the WinQuake & WinSDR documentation more thoroughly. My trouble in understanding is generally terminology, "what is commonly used or normal", and understanding what a step or function does; and primarily Old Age!. Regards, Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... To: psn-l@.............. ; tchannel1@............ Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:46 PM Subject: Filtering Hi Ted, I have been looking at your event files, and your filtering does not make any sense to me. For example file 070902.011039.tcidf.psn show the following filters applied: 1. IIR Filter BW LP Freq: 0.1 Hz Poles: 2 2. IIR Filter BW HP Freq: 1 Hz Poles: 2 The first filter attenuates frequencies higher than 0.1 Hz. The second filter attenuates frequencies lower than 1.0 Hz. The usual filtering is to apply a lowpass filter to attenuate frequencies greater than 1 Hz, and a highpass filter to attenuate frequencies lower than, say, 0.05 Hz. The result is a bandpass filter for frequencies over the range of 0.05 Hz to 1 Hz. What you have done is to essentially exclude almost all frequencies, leaving a tiny response within the 0.1 to 1 Hz interval. The very low amplitude of your waveform after filtering confirms my belief. Your LP cutoff frequency should be higher, not lower, than your HP cutoff. Please download and inspect my file 070902.0115.rem.psn to see the filtering I used for the same event. The filtering for channel z reads: 1. Sensor Period: 4.52s Sensor Q: 0.7 Filtered Period: 40s 2. Butterworth Order 2 HighPass backward Corner Period: 40s 3. Butterworth Order 2 LowPass dblpass-no lag Corner Period: 1s These filters are my own design, and are available in my utility WinQuake filter utility, WQFilter.exe. The first filter extends the natural period of my vertical sensor from 4.5 seconds to 40 seconds. The second filter is a special highpass filter excluding frequencies less than 0.025 Hz and executed backward in time. The third filter is executed both forward in time and backward in time and excludes frequencies greater than 1 Hz. The end result of my filtering is a passband extending from 0.025 Hz to 1.0 Hz, without any time delay or phase shift introduced. Could you email me an unfiltered version of 070902.011039.tcidf.psn? Also, please describe your vertical sensor and its measured or estimated natural period and damping. I would like to try my own filtering on it. Cheers, Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Bob,
 
Thank you for cleaning the = FUZZ in my=20 brain about filtering.  I don't know why, but I have always had a = "mental=20 block" when it came to filtering as-well-as the FFT usage.  =
 
When I finish building my = sensors, I'll=20 sit down and STUDY the WinQuake & WinSDR documentation more=20 thoroughly.  My trouble in understanding is generally terminology, = "what is=20 commonly used or normal", and understanding what a step or function = does; and=20 primarily Old Age!.
 
Regards,
Jerry
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... =
To: psn-l@.............. ; tchannel1@............
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 1:46 PM
Subject: Filtering

Hi Ted,
 
I have been looking at your event files, and your filtering does = not make=20 any sense to me. For example file 070902.011039.tcidf.psn show the = following=20 filters applied:
 
1. IIR Filter BW LP Freq: 0.1 Hz  Poles: 2
2. IIR Filter = BW HP=20 Freq: 1 Hz  Poles: 2
 
The first filter attenuates frequencies higher than 0.1 Hz.
The = second=20 filter attenuates frequencies lower than 1.0 Hz.
 
The usual filtering is to apply a lowpass filter to attenuate = frequencies=20 greater than 1 Hz, and a highpass filter to attenuate frequencies lower = than,=20 say, 0.05 Hz. The result is a bandpass filter for frequencies over the = range of=20 0.05 Hz to 1 Hz. What you have done is to essentially exclude almost all = frequencies, leaving a tiny response within the 0.1 to 1 Hz interval. = The very=20 low amplitude of your waveform after filtering confirms my belief. Your = LP=20 cutoff frequency should be higher, not lower, than your HP cutoff.
 
Please download and inspect my file 070902.0115.rem.psn to see the=20 filtering I used for the same event. The filtering for channel z = reads:
 
1. Sensor Period: 4.52s Sensor Q: 0.7 Filtered Period: 40s
2.=20 Butterworth Order 2 HighPass backward Corner Period: 40s
3. = Butterworth Order=20 2 LowPass dblpass-no lag Corner Period: 1s
 
These filters are my own design, and are available in my utility = WinQuake=20 filter utility, WQFilter.exe.

The first filter extends the natural period of my vertical = sensor from=20 4.5 seconds to 40 seconds.
 
The second filter is a special highpass filter excluding = frequencies less=20 than 0.025 Hz and executed backward in time.
 
The third filter is executed both forward in time and backward in = time and=20 excludes frequencies greater than 1 Hz. The end result of my filtering = is a=20 passband extending from 0.025 Hz to 1.0 Hz, without any time delay or = phase=20 shift introduced.
 
Could you email me an unfiltered version of = 070902.011039.tcidf.psn? Also,=20 please describe your vertical sensor and its measured or estimated = natural=20 period and damping. I would like to try my own filtering on it.
 
Cheers,
 
Bob



Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com.
Subject: Kuril Quake From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:47:33 -0500 George & Geoff and others this is what I am referring = to....http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf or http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc
George & Geoff and others this is = what I am=20 referring to....http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf
or  http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc
Subject: Re: Kuril Quake From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:17:52 +1000 Hi Thomas tried downloading both those files without success cheers Dave N At 06:47 AM 6/09/2007 -0500, you wrote: >George & Geoff and others this is what I am referring >to....http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf >or >http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.6/991 - Release Date: 5/09/2007 >2:55 PM Hi Thomas

  tried downloading both those files without success

cheers
Dave N



At 06:47 AM 6/09/2007 -0500, you wrote:
George & Geoff and others this is what I am referring to....http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf
or  http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.6/991 - Release Date: 5/09/2007 2:55 PM

Subject: Re: Kuril Quake From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:46:30 -0700 Hi Dick - Interesting files. On the last page, you made a comment about being far away from TUC, and yes I agree, but there are two stations much closer that could give you good comparative data if that is what you are looking for. Blue Mountain Array, Baker Oregon US/BMO Hailey, Idaho US/HLID Both of these stations are part of the US array, and shown on the ASL web site link: http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml I am not certain what the sensors are. You can access their data trough IRIS, and download individual SAC binary files. Although full header data is in the files, WinQuake has a problem in reading all of the header, but displays the seismogram. You could call them up in WinQuake, and add the event data to them like you do your own files, and resave them in PSN-4 format or leave them in SAC format. Either way Winquake will read them. You also have a STS-1 sensor located at Corvallis, Or. IU/COR It is part of the IU network. That should give you three good sensors, all much closer than TUC. Bob Hancock On 9/6/07 4:47 AM, "Thomas Dick" wrote: > George & Geoff and others this is what I am referring > to....http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf > > or http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc > > Re: Kuril Quake Hi Di= ck -

Interesting files.  On the last page, you made a comment about being f= ar away from TUC, and yes I agree, but there are two stations much closer th= at could give you good comparative data if that is what you are looking for.=

    Blue Mountain Array, Baker Oregon    = ;    US/BMO
    Hailey, Idaho       &= nbsp;            = ;            &nb= sp;      US/HLID

Both of these stations are part of the US array, and shown on the ASL web s= ite link:

    http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml

I am not certain what the sensors are.  You can access their data trou= gh IRIS, and download individual SAC binary files.  Although full heade= r data is in the files, WinQuake has a problem in reading all of the header,= but displays the seismogram.  You could call them up in WinQuake, and = add the event data to them like you do your own files, and resave them in PS= N-4 format or leave them in SAC format.  Either way Winquake will read = them.

You also have a STS-1 sensor located at Corvallis, Or.  IU/COR  &= nbsp; It is part of the IU network.  

That should give you three good sensors, all much closer than TUC.

Bob Hancock


On 9/6/07 4:47 AM, "Thomas Dick" <dickthomas01@.............&g= t; wrote:

George & Geoff and others this is what I am referring to....http://td= ick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf <http://tdick.bachcottage.com= /kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf>
or  http://tdick.bachcottage= ..com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc <htt= p://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc>


Subject: Re: Kuril Quake From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:08:23 -0500 Tried both and got in ... it is a local website and pics take a while to = load...sorry it is slow...your opinions welcome ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dave Nelson=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Kuril Quake Hi Thomas=20 tried downloading both those files without success cheers Dave N At 06:47 AM 6/09/2007 -0500, you wrote: George & Geoff and others this is what I am referring = to....http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf or http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.6/991 - Release Date: = 5/09/2007 2:55 PM
Tried both and got in ... it is a local = website and=20 pics take a while to load...sorry it is slow...your opinions=20 welcome
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dave=20 Nelson
Sent: Thursday, September 06, = 2007 7:17=20 AM
Subject: Re: Kuril Quake

Hi Thomas

  tried downloading both those = files=20 without success

cheers
Dave N



At 06:47 AM = 6/09/2007=20 -0500, you wrote:
George=20 & Geoff and others this is what I am referring to....http://tdick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.pdf<= FONT=20 face=3Darial size=3D2>
or  http://td= ick.bachcottage.com/kurilquakePSNfollowup.doc
No virus found in this incoming=20 message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.485 / = Virus=20 Database: 269.13.6/991 - Release Date: 5/09/2007 2:55=20 PM

Subject: Re: Kuril Quake From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:21:31 -0500 Re: Kuril QuakeThanks Bob-- the sites you mentioned are familiar to me. = We also have two educational sites within thirty miles of me. One is = Evansville College which is too noisy to be worth anything and the = University of Southern Indiana which is part of the University of St. = Louis network. It is quite a good setup but the online detail leaves me = frustrated. I have not tired to download any files yet...want to point = me in the right direction...I use Winquake. My Lehmans always give = dependable results (at least in my own mind). I never even included the = N-S geophone which was so bad I didn't try to filter it. Re: Kuril Quake
Thanks Bob-- the=20 sites you mentioned are familiar to me. We also have two = educational sites=20 within thirty miles of me. One is Evansville College which is too noisy = to be=20 worth anything and the University of Southern Indiana which is part of = the=20 University of St. Louis network. It is quite a good setup but the online = detail=20 leaves me frustrated. I have not tired to download any files yet...want = to point=20 me in the right direction...I use Winquake. My Lehmans always give = dependable=20 results (at least in my own mind). I never even included the N-S = geophone which=20 was so bad I didn't try to filter it.


Subject: High Activity level at the Geysers From: "Keith Payea" kpayea@.............. Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:52:27 -0700 Hello PSN I watch activity at "The Geysers" in northern California pretty much daily since I am only 30 or 35 KM from there. Here's a link to the USGS map of the area: http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/Maps/123-39.html Usually there are less than ten earthquakes per day, all under magnitude 3. By watching these and checking my system I can fine tune the triggering and get some idea of the sensitivity of my system. For the last several weeks there have been 20 or more quakes per day. Yesterday there were 25, and today is on pace for 15 or more. These are all small, about half are 1.0 or less. There's a lot going on here, including the pumping of wastewater from Santa Rosa into the steam field. I'm also wondering if there have been any improvements made in the monitoring of this area. Some of the quakes recorded are as small as 0.5, which I don't remember ever seeing before. Does anyone know if changes have been made in the equipment or software? The various companies "mining" the steam to generate electricity up there might also be doing something different. Maybe communists from China have been tunnelling across under the Pacific to try to take over North America.... Just kidding, I watch too many old Sci-Fi movies! I just thought some of you might find this interesting. Cheers, Keith Keith Payea Bryant Labs kpayea@.............. www.bryantlabs.net (707) 566-8935 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: High Activity level at the Geysers From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:02:32 -0500 Lots of "little" quakes in mid-continental U.S. too -- even the New Madrid area (including two in Arkansas, Tiptonville TN Hornbeak TN, Ridgely TN and New Madrid MO), Nevada, Utah, and Arizona just since the first of Sept.California has been more active too. I am recording quakes out there that I couldn't in the past. Don't fall into the ocean!!! __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Fwd: High Activity level at the Geysers? From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:23:38 -0700 I checked with the USGS and found that: "We recently integrated into our real-time system seismic data from the 23-station digital "Calpine" network operated by LBL within the Geysers field. It has greatly improved our detection threshold in the field, so there will be more and smaller quakes being reported. " Cheers, John >From: "Keith Payea" >To: >Subject: High Activity level at the Geysers >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:52:27 -0700 > >Hello PSN > >I watch activity at "The Geysers" in northern California pretty much daily >since I am only 30 or 35 KM from there. Here's a link to the USGS map of >the area: > >http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/Maps/123-39.html > >Usually there are less than ten earthquakes per day, all under magnitude 3. >By watching these and checking my system I can fine tune the triggering and >get some idea of the sensitivity of my system. > >For the last several weeks there have been 20 or more quakes per day. >Yesterday there were 25, and today is on pace for 15 or more. These are all >small, about half are 1.0 or less. > >There's a lot going on here, including the pumping of wastewater from Santa >Rosa into the steam field. I'm also wondering if there have been any >improvements made in the monitoring of this area. Some of the quakes >recorded are as small as 0.5, which I don't remember ever seeing before. >Does anyone know if changes have been made in the equipment or software? > >The various companies "mining" the steam to generate electricity up there >might also be doing something different. > >Maybe communists from China have been tunnelling across under the Pacific to >try to take over North America.... Just kidding, I watch too many old >Sci-Fi movies! > >I just thought some of you might find this interesting. > >Cheers, > > Keith > >Keith Payea >Bryant Labs >kpayea@.............. >www.bryantlabs.net >(707) 566-8935 > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Kuril Islands quake From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:27:09 EDT tdick wrote: >>Horizontal units seem to have a lot of artifacts here in southern Indiana ... anyone else see this?<< Greetings: I would not wonder that you did not see much, as I did not, either. This event was 100km deep, which is too deep for strong L waves. The P wave on my vertical sensor was quite strong, however. I am sending you my heliplots in a separate email. By the way, I note in your PDF file that you entered wrong the event longitude in WinQuake, which would make all your phase picks incorrect. The event longitude was 150.027E, not 150.027W. Cheers, Bob PSN Station REM Locust Valley, NY ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
tdick wrote: =20
>>Horizontal units seem to have a lot of artifacts here in southe= rn=20 Indiana .. anyone else see this?<<
 
Greetings:
 
  I would not wonder that you did not see much, as I did not,= =20 either. This event was 100km deep, which is too deep for strong L waves. The= P=20 wave on my vertical sensor was quite strong, however. I am sending you my=20 heliplots in a separate email.
 
  By the way, I note in your PDF file that you entered wrong the e= vent=20 longitude in WinQuake, which would make all your phase picks incorrect. The=20 event longitude was 150.027E, not 150.027W.
 
Cheers,
 
Bob
PSN Station REM
Locust Valley, NY



See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
Subject: Helicorder screen saver From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 22:17:58 -0700 I've just posted instructions for setting up a seismogram as a screen saver: http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/screensaver/index.html If you see any typos, let me know. This can be expanded to include additional stations by adding wget lines to the batch file. In fact, the image need not be a seismogram, but what could be better than a current seismogram??? Thanks, John __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: High Activity level at the Geysers? From: "Keith Payea" kpayea@.............. Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:56:55 -0700 Well that certainly explains the change in the totals. What made me wonder was that there was no increase in the number of 3+ quakes. Thanks for checking into that. Cheers, Keith -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of John Lahr Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 6:24 PM To: PSN-L@.............. Cc: Keith Payea Subject: Fwd: High Activity level at the Geysers? I checked with the USGS and found that: "We recently integrated into our real-time system seismic data from the 23-station digital "Calpine" network operated by LBL within the Geysers field. It has greatly improved our detection threshold in the field, so there will be more and smaller quakes being reported. " Cheers, John >From: "Keith Payea" >To: >Subject: High Activity level at the Geysers >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:52:27 -0700 > >Hello PSN > >I watch activity at "The Geysers" in northern California pretty much daily >since I am only 30 or 35 KM from there. Here's a link to the USGS map of >the area: > >http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/Maps/123-39.html > >Usually there are less than ten earthquakes per day, all under magnitude 3. >By watching these and checking my system I can fine tune the triggering and >get some idea of the sensitivity of my system. > >For the last several weeks there have been 20 or more quakes per day. >Yesterday there were 25, and today is on pace for 15 or more. These are all >small, about half are 1.0 or less. > >There's a lot going on here, including the pumping of wastewater from Santa >Rosa into the steam field. I'm also wondering if there have been any >improvements made in the monitoring of this area. Some of the quakes >recorded are as small as 0.5, which I don't remember ever seeing before. >Does anyone know if changes have been made in the equipment or software? > >The various companies "mining" the steam to generate electricity up there >might also be doing something different. > >Maybe communists from China have been tunnelling across under the Pacific to >try to take over North America.... Just kidding, I watch too many old >Sci-Fi movies! > >I just thought some of you might find this interesting. > >Cheers, > > Keith > >Keith Payea >Bryant Labs >kpayea@.............. >www.bryantlabs.net >(707) 566-8935 > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: High Activity level at the Geysers? From: "Keith Payea" kpayea@.............. Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 11:56:55 -0700 Well that certainly explains the change in the totals. What made me wonder was that there was no increase in the number of 3+ quakes. Thanks for checking into that. Cheers, Keith -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of John Lahr Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 6:24 PM To: PSN-L@.............. Cc: Keith Payea Subject: Fwd: High Activity level at the Geysers? I checked with the USGS and found that: "We recently integrated into our real-time system seismic data from the 23-station digital "Calpine" network operated by LBL within the Geysers field. It has greatly improved our detection threshold in the field, so there will be more and smaller quakes being reported. " Cheers, John >From: "Keith Payea" >To: >Subject: High Activity level at the Geysers >Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:52:27 -0700 > >Hello PSN > >I watch activity at "The Geysers" in northern California pretty much daily >since I am only 30 or 35 KM from there. Here's a link to the USGS map of >the area: > >http://quake.usgs.gov/recenteqs/Maps/123-39.html > >Usually there are less than ten earthquakes per day, all under magnitude 3. >By watching these and checking my system I can fine tune the triggering and >get some idea of the sensitivity of my system. > >For the last several weeks there have been 20 or more quakes per day. >Yesterday there were 25, and today is on pace for 15 or more. These are all >small, about half are 1.0 or less. > >There's a lot going on here, including the pumping of wastewater from Santa >Rosa into the steam field. I'm also wondering if there have been any >improvements made in the monitoring of this area. Some of the quakes >recorded are as small as 0.5, which I don't remember ever seeing before. >Does anyone know if changes have been made in the equipment or software? > >The various companies "mining" the steam to generate electricity up there >might also be doing something different. > >Maybe communists from China have been tunnelling across under the Pacific to >try to take over North America.... Just kidding, I watch too many old >Sci-Fi movies! > >I just thought some of you might find this interesting. > >Cheers, > > Keith > >Keith Payea >Bryant Labs >kpayea@.............. >www.bryantlabs.net >(707) 566-8935 > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Helicorder screen saver From: "Dale Hardy" photon1@........... Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:51:34 +1000 John, for those that have never used 'wget' it can be downloaded from http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/ Put wget.exe, libeay32.dll & ssleay32.dll in the same folder you make to download the images cheers Dale ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lahr" To: Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 3:17 PM Subject: Helicorder screen saver > I've just posted instructions for setting up a seismogram as a screen > saver: > > http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/screensaver/index.html > > If you see any typos, let me know. > > This can be expanded to include additional stations by adding wget lines > to the batch file. > > In fact, the image need not be a seismogram, but what could be better than > a current seismogram??? > > Thanks, > John > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: > 269.13.10/995 - Release Date: 8/09/2007 1:24 PM > > -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 234 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Helicorder screen saver From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 23:15:03 -0700 Dale, Thanks! I've added a link to wget.exe. It's working for me without the two ..dll files. I didn't find wget.exe within the recent .tar.gz files on gnu.org, but I found a copy on my site. John At 09:51 PM 9/9/2007, you wrote: >John, for those that have never used 'wget' it can be downloaded from > >http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/ > >Put wget.exe, libeay32.dll & ssleay32.dll in the same folder you make to >download the images >cheers >Dale > > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lahr" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 3:17 PM >Subject: Helicorder screen saver > > >>I've just posted instructions for setting up a seismogram as a screen saver: >> >>http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/screensaver/index.html >> >>If you see any typos, let me know. >> >>This can be expanded to include additional stations by adding wget >>lines to the batch file. >> >>In fact, the image need not be a seismogram, but what could be >>better than a current seismogram??? >> >>Thanks, >>John >> >> >>__________________________________________________________ >> >>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body >>of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> >>-- >>No virus found in this incoming message. >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: >>269.13.10/995 - Release Date: 8/09/2007 1:24 PM >> > > >-- >I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. >It has removed 234 spam emails to date. >Paying users do not have this message in their emails. >Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body >of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Helicorder screen saver From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 09:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Hi John Your instruction sheet is quite impressive. Thanks for the time that you put into it. However, I'm stuck on the first line. What if I want my seismogram on my desktop instead of one of the schools shown at the link you provide? Sorry to be so dense but I'm a hardware Wizard and software idiot. Pete Rowe --- John Lahr wrote: > Dale, > > Thanks! I've added a link to wget.exe. It's > working for me without the two > .dll files. I didn't find wget.exe within the > recent .tar.gz files > on gnu.org, but > I found a copy on my site. > > John > > At 09:51 PM 9/9/2007, you wrote: > >John, for those that have never used 'wget' it can > be downloaded from > > > >http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/ > > > >Put wget.exe, libeay32.dll & ssleay32.dll in the > same folder you make to > >download the images > >cheers > >Dale > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lahr" > > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 3:17 PM > >Subject: Helicorder screen saver > > > > > >>I've just posted instructions for setting up a > seismogram as a screen saver: > >> > >>http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/screensaver/index.html > >> > >>If you see any typos, let me know. > >> > >>This can be expanded to include additional > stations by adding wget > >>lines to the batch file. > >> > >>In fact, the image need not be a seismogram, but > what could be > >>better than a current seismogram??? > >> > >>Thanks, > >>John > >> > >> > >>__________________________________________________________ > >> > >>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >> > >>To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body > >>of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > >>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for > more information. > >> > >> > >>-- > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / > Virus Database: > >>269.13.10/995 - Release Date: 8/09/2007 1:24 PM > >> > > > > > >-- > >I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for > private users. > >It has removed 234 spam emails to date. > >Paying users do not have this message in their > emails. > >Get the free SPAMfighter here: > http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ > > > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > >To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body > >of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for > more information. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): > unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Mt. Mazama now known as Crater Lake From: tchannel1@............ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:30:54 -0600 Hi Folks, Well today both computers are working, so I thought I would = tell you about some things I saw, while on vacation to the Oregon coast = last week. We stayed one night at Timberline Lodge on Mt. Hood. Very = impressive as a first time visitor. I mention this as a point of = interest for Seismic Events, past and future. I understand these = mountains in Oregon and Washington are still active, if you just = wait..........As with Mt. St. Helens in 1980.=20 Mt. Hood is around 11,000 ft. "They", not sure who They are, say it too = will awaken in the future. That is one big mountain. Great place to = visit. We also drove to Crater Lake, which used to be called Mt. = Mazama and about 7700 years ago was bigger than Mt. Hood. I think the = rim of Crater Lake is around 6000 feet which means about 6000 feet are = missing. 7700 years ago is recent in geological terms. People were = living in the NW around 10,000 years ago. Whether the eruption that = obliterated Mt. Mazama happened in one day or over a longer period of = time, 50 cubic kilometers is missing from the mountain, compared to .5 = cubic kilometers from Mt. St. Helens in the 1980 event. If you compare = Mt. Hood and Mt. Mazama as they were, and then look across the caldara = of the now Crater Lake, it is hard to wrap your mind around the enormity = of such an event. If this is of interest to anyone, please do write me and I can send you = pictures. If anyone has additional information about the area or = locations of ash deposits from Mt. Mazama, feel free to contact me. I = have many more questions than answers about this subject. Thanks,Ted
Hi Folks,  Well today both = computers are=20 working, so I thought I would tell you about some things I saw, while on = vacation to the Oregon coast last week.  We stayed one night at = Timberline=20 Lodge on Mt. Hood.   Very impressive as a first time = visitor.  I=20 mention this as a point of interest for Seismic Events, past and=20 future.   I understand these mountains in Oregon and = Washington are=20 still active, if you just wait..........As with Mt. St. Helens in=20 1980. 
 
Mt. Hood is around 11,000 = ft.  "They",=20 not sure who They are, say it too will awaken in the = future.  =20 That is one big mountain.   Great place to visit.   = We also=20 drove to Crater Lake, which used to be called Mt. Mazama and about 7700 = years=20 ago was bigger than Mt. Hood.   I think the rim of Crater Lake = is=20 around 6000 feet which means about 6000 feet are missing.   = 7700 years=20 ago is recent in geological terms.  People were living in the = NW=20 around 10,000 years ago.   Whether the eruption that = obliterated Mt.=20 Mazama happened in one day or over a longer period of time, 50 cubic = kilometers=20 is missing from the mountain, compared to .5 cubic kilometers from Mt. = St.=20 Helens in the 1980 event.  If you compare Mt. Hood and Mt. = Mazama as=20 they were, and then look across the caldara of the now Crater Lake, it = is hard=20 to wrap your mind around the enormity of such an event.
 
If this is of interest to anyone, = please do=20 write me and I can send you pictures.  If anyone has additional = information=20 about the area or locations of ash deposits from Mt. Mazama, feel free = to=20 contact me.   I have many more questions than answers about = this=20 subject.
 
Thanks,Ted
 
 
Subject: Re: Helicorder screen saver From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:00:17 -0700 Hi Pete, Are you running software, such as AmaSeis, that displays a helicorder image at all times? If that's the case, then of course you don't need this for that computer. If you want to display a screen saver on computer B, in one location, that shows what's on the screen of computer A, in another location, then this system can be used. To do this, you need software that will take a "snapshot" of computer A's screen every x minutes. We usually do this every 10 minutes. The snapshot is stored as a .gif image. The software generally used is called SnagIt. SnagIt not only creates the image, but also optionally sends it to an Internet site via FTP. Instructions for SnagIt, and for a more complex solution using MWSnap are posted here: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/index.html#snagit Once the image is on the Internet, my instructions can be used from there. Hope this helps! John At 09:49 AM 9/10/2007, you wrote: >Hi John >Your instruction sheet is quite impressive. Thanks for >the time that you put into it. However, I'm stuck on >the first line. What if I want my seismogram on my >desktop instead of one of the schools shown at the >link you provide? Sorry to be so dense but I'm a >hardware Wizard and software idiot. >Pete Rowe >--- John Lahr wrote: > > > Dale, > > > > Thanks! I've added a link to wget.exe. It's > > working for me without the two > > .dll files. I didn't find wget.exe within the > > recent .tar.gz files > > on gnu.org, but > > I found a copy on my site. > > > > John > > > > At 09:51 PM 9/9/2007, you wrote: > > >John, for those that have never used 'wget' it can > > be downloaded from > > > > > >http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/ > > > > > >Put wget.exe, libeay32.dll & ssleay32.dll in the > > same folder you make to > > >download the images > > >cheers > > >Dale > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lahr" > > > > >To: > > >Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 3:17 PM > > >Subject: Helicorder screen saver > > > > > > > > >>I've just posted instructions for setting up a > > seismogram as a screen saver: > > >> > > > >>http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/screensaver/index.html > > >> > > >>If you see any typos, let me know. > > >> > > >>This can be expanded to include additional > > stations by adding wget > > >>lines to the batch file. > > >> > > >>In fact, the image need not be a seismogram, but > > what could be > > >>better than a current seismogram??? > > >> > > >>Thanks, > > >>John > > >> > > >> > > > >>__________________________________________________________ > > >> > > >>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > >> > > >>To leave this list email > > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body > > >>of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > >>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for > > more information. > > >> > > >> > > >>-- > > >>No virus found in this incoming message. > > >>Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / > > Virus Database: > > >>269.13.10/995 - Release Date: 8/09/2007 1:24 PM > > >> > > > > > > > > >-- > > >I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for > > private users. > > >It has removed 234 spam emails to date. > > >Paying users do not have this message in their > > emails. > > >Get the free SPAMfighter here: > > http://www.spamfighter.com/len > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ > > > > > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > > >To leave this list email > > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body > > >of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for > > more information. > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email > > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > the body of the message (first line only): > > unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > > information. > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. >http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Mt. Mazama now known as Crater Lake From: "Kareem at Heyjoojoo" system98765@............. Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 21:54:10 -0700 Absolutely, I would love to hear and see what you have to share... I've always tried to get as much visual information on the historic eruptions of other cascadian volcanoes like Mt. Mazama and Hood. - Kareem _____ From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of tchannel1@............ Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:31 AM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Mt. Mazama now known as Crater Lake Hi Folks, Well today both computers are working, so I thought I would tell you about some things I saw, while on vacation to the Oregon coast last week. We stayed one night at Timberline Lodge on Mt. Hood. Very impressive as a first time visitor. I mention this as a point of interest for Seismic Events, past and future. I understand these mountains in Oregon and Washington are still active, if you just wait..........As with Mt. St. Helens in 1980. Mt. Hood is around 11,000 ft. "They", not sure who They are, say it too will awaken in the future. That is one big mountain. Great place to visit. We also drove to Crater Lake, which used to be called Mt. Mazama and about 7700 years ago was bigger than Mt. Hood. I think the rim of Crater Lake is around 6000 feet which means about 6000 feet are missing. 7700 years ago is recent in geological terms. People were living in the NW around 10,000 years ago. Whether the eruption that obliterated Mt. Mazama happened in one day or over a longer period of time, 50 cubic kilometers is missing from the mountain, compared to .5 cubic kilometers from Mt. St. Helens in the 1980 event. If you compare Mt. Hood and Mt. Mazama as they were, and then look across the caldara of the now Crater Lake, it is hard to wrap your mind around the enormity of such an event. If this is of interest to anyone, please do write me and I can send you pictures. If anyone has additional information about the area or locations of ash deposits from Mt. Mazama, feel free to contact me. I have many more questions than answers about this subject. Thanks,Ted
Absolutely, I would love to hear and see what = you have to=20 share...
I've always tried to get as much visual = information on the=20 historic eruptions of other cascadian volcanoes like Mt. Mazama and=20 Hood.
 
- Kareem

From: psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of=20 tchannel1@............
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 = 10:31=20 AM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: Mt. Mazama now = known as=20 Crater Lake

Hi Folks,  Well today both = computers are=20 working, so I thought I would tell you about some things I saw, while on = vacation to the Oregon coast last week.  We stayed one night at = Timberline=20 Lodge on Mt. Hood.   Very impressive as a first time = visitor.  I=20 mention this as a point of interest for Seismic Events, past and=20 future.   I understand these mountains in Oregon and = Washington are=20 still active, if you just wait..........As with Mt. St. Helens in=20 1980. 
 
Mt. Hood is around 11,000 = ft.  "They",=20 not sure who They are, say it too will awaken in the = future.  =20 That is one big mountain.   Great place to visit.   = We also=20 drove to Crater Lake, which used to be called Mt. Mazama and about 7700 = years=20 ago was bigger than Mt. Hood.   I think the rim of Crater Lake = is=20 around 6000 feet which means about 6000 feet are missing.   = 7700 years=20 ago is recent in geological terms.  People were living in the = NW=20 around 10,000 years ago.   Whether the eruption that = obliterated Mt.=20 Mazama happened in one day or over a longer period of time, 50 cubic = kilometers=20 is missing from the mountain, compared to .5 cubic kilometers from Mt. = St.=20 Helens in the 1980 event.  If you compare Mt. Hood and Mt. = Mazama as=20 they were, and then look across the caldara of the now Crater Lake, it = is hard=20 to wrap your mind around the enormity of such an event.
 
If this is of interest to anyone, = please do=20 write me and I can send you pictures.  If anyone has additional = information=20 about the area or locations of ash deposits from Mt. Mazama, feel free = to=20 contact me.   I have many more questions than answers about = this=20 subject.
 
Thanks,Ted
 
 
Subject: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: "Chuck Burch" ciburch@........... Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:58:10 -0600 I am drafting plans to build a three electrode spirit level style tiltmeter to use as a horizontal seismometer. Any hints on construction? What liquid is best? Are surface tension and/or viscosity critical? I'm planning on using a Wheatstone bridge detector circuit. Can this be improved? Thanks for your comments. Chuck I. Burch __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:42:15 -0700 (PDT) Hi Chuck I've designed tiltmeters for many years for use in the oil industry. My designs typically can resolve 5 nanometers of tilt when they are deep in the earth away from surface noise. You need to be down about 40 feet (or on the surface way out in the middle of nowhere) before you can see earth tides. The two most prominent electrolytic sensor manufacturers are Fredericks and Sensitron. I prefer the Sensitron units myself. They have three platinum electrodes in a liquid filled tube with an ever so slight curvature to it. The liquid is a secret formula that is a solvent with a small amount of organic salt dissolved in it to make it conductive. They add another ingredient to stabilize the liquid over time. It would be hard to make one yourself. See if one of the manufacturers will give you a sample. The sensor bridge must be driven with an AC signal at something like 300 to 700 Hz. If you used DC on the bridge, one electrode would plate over to the other and be no good in short order. Sense the bridge with an instrumentation amplifier with a gain of 10 or so. Then AC couple the output to eliminate DC drift. Run into a switchable gain stage of 10, 100, 1000. Then into a gain of 4 low pass filter with a 3dB cutoff at 30 seconds (NOT 30Hz). From there level shift with a good voltage reference to go to your A/D. You'll need a solid base and very fine pitch screws (or better yet, micrometers) to level the mechanism. Start out with gain =10 and level, switch to gain= 100 and level again. If you have a very stable base, you can try a gain=1000 and level again. This isn't hard to duplicate but will take some time. I can give you tips on amplifier selection but, unfortunately, I can't give you a schematic because it is proprietary to my company. I'm in San Jose, CA. I'd be glad to have you visit my lab if you are ever in the area. Feel free to ask more questions. Pete Rowe --- Chuck Burch wrote: > > I am drafting plans to build a three electrode > spirit level style tiltmeter to use as a > horizontal seismometer. Any hints on construction? > What liquid is best? Are > surface tension and/or viscosity critical? > > I'm planning on using a Wheatstone bridge detector > circuit. Can this be improved? > > Thanks for your comments. > > Chuck I. Burch > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): > unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:52:59 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/14, ciburch@........... writes: > I am drafting plans to build a three electrode spirit level style tiltmeter > to use as a > horizontal seismometer. Any hints on construction? What liquid is best? > Are > surface tension and / or viscosity critical? Hi Chuck, Send an EMail to Dave Nelson davefnelson@....... and join the FMES group? The technology / techniques for liquid horizontal seismometers have been developed and construction details and circuit diagrams are available. These systems have been extended out to 350 seconds. They are basically a horizontal sense tube with dashpot height sensors at the ends. They have two outputs. A tilt signal is available directly and also a capacity coupled horizontal seismic velocity signal. They are constructed out of PVC pipe and use a water + additive sense fluid. They use AC excitation and phase sensitive detection. The viscosity is not critical, but you severely damp the tilt response to get a broad band signal. You add a surfactant to reduce the surface tension. The system is about 10" long and is mounted with the electronics inside a square Al tube to control thermal gradients and to provide electrostatic screening. They can be constructed DIY quite easily. > I'm planning on using a Wheatstone bridge detector circuit. Can this be > improved? > Very considerably! Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/14, ciburch@........... writes:

I am drafting plans to build a=20= three electrode spirit level style tiltmeter to use as a
horizontal seismometer.  Any hints on construction?  What liquid i= s best?  Are
surface tension and / or viscosity critical? 


Hi Chuck,

       Send an EMail to Dave Nelson davefnelson@....... and join the FMES gr= oup? The technology / techniques for liquid horizontal seismometers have bee= n developed and construction details and circuit diagrams are available. The= se systems have been extended out to 350 seconds.
       They are basically a horizontal sense t= ube with dashpot height sensors at the ends. They have two outputs. A tilt s= ignal is available directly and also a capacity coupled horizontal seismic v= elocity signal. They are constructed out of PVC pipe and use a water + addit= ive sense fluid. They use AC excitation and phase sensitive detection.
       The viscosity is not critical, but you=20= severely damp the tilt response to get a broad band signal. You add a surfac= tant to reduce the surface tension. The system is about 10" long and is moun= ted with the electronics inside a square Al tube to control thermal gradient= s and to provide electrostatic screening.
       They can be constructed DIY quite easil= y.

I'm planning on using a Wheatst= one bridge detector circuit. Can this be improved?

       Very considerably!

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: Pete Rowe ptrowe@......... Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 07:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Hi again Chuck I left out one important piece of the circuit. Chris' reply to you jogged my memory. Since you drive the bridge with AC, you have to have a synchronous rectifier after the gain stages to turn the signal back to DC. This is done with an analog switch and an op amp. Easy. As Chris mentioned, the homemade liquid filled tube may be your best bet for building the sensor yourself. I saw one of these at Cal Tech many years ago. It was about 2 meters long and had a horizontal tube filled with Mercury. They sensed the level of the Mercury in a cup at each end capacitively. With today's capacitive sensor ICs, this should be easy to do. Good luck! Pete --- Chuck Burch wrote: > > I am drafting plans to build a three electrode > spirit level style tiltmeter to use as a > horizontal seismometer. Any hints on construction? > What liquid is best? Are > surface tension and/or viscosity critical? > > I'm planning on using a Wheatstone bridge detector > circuit. Can this be improved? > > Thanks for your comments. > > Chuck I. Burch > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): > unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:31:45 -0700 Mercury is incredibly dangerous and just how much mercury are you talking ? It is an insidious poison like most other heavy metals which the human body has no use for. It will rob you of motor function and lower your IQ. If you like the girls I would not play with mercury you will not dance so good anymore. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Rowe" To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 7:48 AM Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer > Hi again Chuck > I left out one important piece of the circuit. Chris' > reply to you jogged my memory. Since you drive the > bridge with AC, you have to have a synchronous > rectifier after the gain stages to turn the signal > back to DC. This is done with an analog switch and an > op amp. Easy. > As Chris mentioned, the homemade liquid filled tube > may be your best bet for building the sensor yourself. > I saw one of these at Cal Tech many years ago. It was > about 2 meters long and had a horizontal tube filled > with Mercury. They sensed the level of the Mercury in > a cup at each end capacitively. With today's > capacitive sensor ICs, this should be easy to do. > Good luck! > Pete > --- Chuck Burch wrote: > >> >> I am drafting plans to build a three electrode >> spirit level style tiltmeter to use as a >> horizontal seismometer. Any hints on construction? >> What liquid is best? Are >> surface tension and/or viscosity critical? >> >> I'm planning on using a Wheatstone bridge detector >> circuit. Can this be improved? >> >> Thanks for your comments. >> >> Chuck I. Burch >> >> > __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email >> PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): >> unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more >> information. >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 14:20:07 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/15, ptrowe@......... writes: > I left out one important piece of the circuit. Chris' reply to you jogged > my memory. Since you drive the bridge with AC, you have to have a synchronous > rectifier after the gain stages to turn the signal back to DC. This is done > with an analog switch and an op amp. Easy. > As Chris mentioned, the homemade liquid filled tube may be your best bet for > building the sensor yourself. I saw one of these at Cal Tech many years ago. > It was > about 2 meters long and had a horizontal tube filled with Mercury. They > sensed the level of the Mercury in a cup at each end capacitively. With today's > capacitive sensor ICs, this should be easy to do. Hi Chuck, There is a distinct advantage in using a sine wave drive if you want really low noise. This can be generated with a crystal oscillator driving a binary counter and some load resistors into a summing amplifier and a low pass filter. It is described on Sean Morrissey's website. You might be interested to read Gile, WW, Geophys. J. Roy. Astro. Soc. vol 36 1974 pp 153-165 "A Mercury Pendulum Seismometer" Your local library should be able to get you a photocopy. He describes a seismometer built by Benioff, but he does not go into the technique of using large end cups to extend the natural period, or strong overdamping to flatten the natural pendulum dog leg response below the resonant period. Mercury is highly toxic, particularly the vapour, even at room temperature, so your equipment needs to be 100% sealed. Always handle it over a deep plastic tray to catch any spillage. It forms amalgams with many common metals and it will 'rot' components made of brass, copper, aluminum, zinc, solder.... SS is OK. It is also very expensive! Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/15, ptrowe@......... writes:

I left out one important piece=20= of the circuit. Chris' reply to you jogged my memory. Since you drive the br= idge with AC, you have to have a synchronous rectifier after the gain stages= to turn the signal back to DC. This is done with an analog switch and an op= amp. Easy.
As Chris mentioned, the homemade liquid filled tube may be your best bet for= building the sensor yourself. I saw one of these at Cal Tech many years ago= .. It was
about 2 meters long and had a horizontal tube filled with Mercury. They sens= ed the level of the Mercury in a cup at each end capacitively. With today's=20= capacitive sensor ICs, this should be easy to do.


Hi Chuck,

       There is a distinct advantage in using=20= a sine wave drive if you want really low noise. This can be generated with a= crystal oscillator driving a binary counter and some load resistors into a=20= summing amplifier and a low pass filter. It is described on Sean Morrissey's= website.

       You might be interested to read Gile, W= W, Geophys. J. Roy. Astro. Soc. vol 36 1974 pp 153-165 "A Mercury Pendulu= m Seismometer" Your local library should be able to get you a photocopy.= He describes a seismometer built by Benioff, but he does not go into the te= chnique of using large end cups to extend the natural period,  or stron= g overdamping to flatten the natural pendulum dog leg response below the res= onant period.

       Mercury is highly toxic, particularly t= he vapour, even at room temperature, so your equipment needs to be 100% seal= ed. Always handle it over a deep plastic tray to catch any spillage. It form= s amalgams with many common metals and it will 'rot' components made of bras= s, copper, aluminum, zinc, solder.... SS is OK. It is also very expensive! <= BR>
       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 05:51:49 -0700 What ever happened to the old fashioned oscillators like colpits and heartly and stuff like that. I understand if you take great effort to properly isolate the oscillators they are quite stable. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer > In a message dated 2007/09/15, ptrowe@......... writes: > >> I left out one important piece of the circuit. Chris' reply to you jogged >> my memory. Since you drive the bridge with AC, you have to have a synchronous >> rectifier after the gain stages to turn the signal back to DC. This is done >> with an analog switch and an op amp. Easy. >> As Chris mentioned, the homemade liquid filled tube may be your best bet for >> building the sensor yourself. I saw one of these at Cal Tech many years ago. >> It was >> about 2 meters long and had a horizontal tube filled with Mercury. They >> sensed the level of the Mercury in a cup at each end capacitively. With today's >> capacitive sensor ICs, this should be easy to do. > > Hi Chuck, > > There is a distinct advantage in using a sine wave drive if you want > really low noise. This can be generated with a crystal oscillator driving a > binary counter and some load resistors into a summing amplifier and a low pass > filter. It is described on Sean Morrissey's website. > > You might be interested to read Gile, WW, Geophys. J. Roy. Astro. Soc. > vol 36 1974 pp 153-165 "A Mercury Pendulum Seismometer" Your local library > should be able to get you a photocopy. He describes a seismometer built by > Benioff, but he does not go into the technique of using large end cups to extend > the natural period, or strong overdamping to flatten the natural pendulum dog > leg response below the resonant period. > > Mercury is highly toxic, particularly the vapour, even at room > temperature, so your equipment needs to be 100% sealed. Always handle it over a deep > plastic tray to catch any spillage. It forms amalgams with many common metals > and it will 'rot' components made of brass, copper, aluminum, zinc, solder.... > SS is OK. It is also very expensive! > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltmeter as Horizontal Seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 10:42:36 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/16, gmvoeth@........... writes: > What ever happened to the old fashioned oscillators like colpits and > heartly and stuff like that. > I understand if you take great effort to properly isolate the oscillators > they are > quite stable. Hi Geoff, It depends on whether you want a highly stable but variable oscillator or a fixed frequency. Stable variable oscillators may be required in radio receivers. The change from thermionic valves to transistors in the 1960s greatly reduced the thermal drift problems. For driving detector circuits you need a fixed frequency. The simple cheap way of doing this is to use an AT cut Quartz crystal and step down counters. We are looking for ppm frequency and amplitude stability for seismic detector systems. The detector may have a range of several mm, but we need nanometre resolution and stability. If you want a very high stability sine wave, you can generate it directly with a oscillator / binary counter like a CD4060 as a step sine approximation and then use a low pass filter to smooth off the step corners. I use a 2.4576 M Hz crystal which steps down in factors of 2 to 19,200, 9,600, 4,800, 2,400 Hz etc to choice. There are problems with seismic instrumentation which need to be solved / compensated, but there are also problems which you don't need to have! Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/16, gmvoeth@........... writes:

What ever happened to the old f= ashioned oscillators like colpits and heartly and stuff like that.
I understand if you take great effort to properly isolate the oscillators th= ey are
quite stable.


Hi Geoff,

       It depends on whether you want a highly= stable but variable oscillator or a fixed frequency. Stable variable oscill= ators may be required in radio receivers. The change from thermionic valves=20= to transistors in the 1960s greatly reduced the thermal drift problems.

       For driving detector circuits you need=20= a fixed frequency. The simple cheap way of doing this is to use an AT cut Qu= artz crystal and step down counters. We are looking for ppm frequency and am= plitude stability for seismic detector systems. The detector may have a rang= e of several mm, but we need nanometre resolution and stability.

       If you want a very high stability sine=20= wave, you can generate it directly with a oscillator / binary counter like a= CD4060 as a step sine approximation and then use a low pass filter to smoot= h off the step corners. I use a 2.4576 M Hz crystal which steps down in fact= ors of 2 to 19,200, 9,600, 4,800, 2,400 Hz etc to choice.

       There are problems with seismic instrum= entation which need to be solved / compensated, but there are also problems=20= which you don't need to have!

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: A neodymium "speaker coil" like magnet arrangement review From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 12:49:41 -0600 Hi all, Here is a "review" of a 3 magnet arrangement; that might be applicable and useful for that specific round copper wire coil you are having difficulty finding the proper metal and/or magnets for your seismometer sensor experimentation. It will via the 3 neodymium magnets; be a improvement over using a weak field single "U" shaped alnico magnet. http://www.geocities.com/meredithlamb/neodymium.html Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
Here is a "review" of a 3 magnet arrangement; that might be applicable and useful
for that specific round copper wire coil you are having difficulty finding the proper
metal and/or magnets for your seismometer sensor experimentation.  It will via
the 3 neodymium magnets; be a improvement over using a weak field single "U"
shaped alnico magnet. 
 
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
 
Subject: Re: A neodymium "speaker coil" like magnet arrangement review From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 22:21:28 EDT Merideth's comments call to mind an old paper by Tom Leiper on a horizontal seismograph he built using the magnet from a horn driver. It also used a circular coil. See: _http://psn.quake.net/leiper/seismograph.html_ (http://psn.quake.net/leiper/seismograph.html) In comments to me about the article Tom said: "I just happened to have a speaker from my boat hailer that was "old" and needed to be replaced with a new model (later this spring) and could be "sacrificed" to scientific experimentation. After unscrewing the horn from the transducer, I removed the cover plate and voice coil assemblies. The magnet assembly is the usual "wrap around case" design which results in a circular gap for the voice coil with extremely high field strength in the gap between the inner pole plate and the outer pole ring. There was virtually no fringe field, but once my "test" block came in contact with the center pole it was almost impossible to remove. The magnet weighs five pounds and the gap is about 1.5 inches in diameter. I spun down an old chunk of iron rod to the same diameter as the inner pole plate and adjusted the length (thus weight) down to the point where it would balance the whole assembly at the face of the outer ring of the magnet when placed on edge. A bead of epoxy is all that is required to keep the iron bar from slipping once you have it perfectly centered in the pole plate. The epoxy also seals the gap from foreign bodies (and domestic, for that matter). The outer pole ring conveniently has a ring of 8-32 pem-nut fasteners included at no extra charge, so a simple aluminum plate can be fashioned to attach the whole mess to the end of your boom. No additional mass is necessary as the entire assembly weighs in at about 8 pounds." ---Bob ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
  Merideth's comments call to mind an old paper by Tom Leiper= on=20 a horizontal seismograph he built using the magnet from a horn driver. It al= so=20 used a circular coil. See:
 
   http://psn.quake.net/l= eiper/seismograph.html
 
  In comments to me about the article Tom said:
 
  "I just happened to have a speaker from my boat hailer that was=20 "old" and needed to be replaced with a new model (later this spring) and cou= ld=20 be "sacrificed" to scientific experimentation. After unscrewing the horn fro= m=20 the transducer, I removed the cover plate and voice coil assemblies. The mag= net=20 assembly is the usual "wrap around case" design which results in a circular=20= gap=20 for the voice coil with extremely high field strength in the gap between the= =20 inner pole plate and the outer pole ring. There was virtually no fringe fiel= d,=20 but once my "test" block came in contact with the center pole it was almost=20 impossible to remove. The magnet weighs five pounds and the gap is about 1.5= =20 inches in diameter.
  I spun down an old chunk of iron rod to the sa= me=20 diameter as the inner pole plate and adjusted the length (thus weight) down=20= to=20 the point where it would balance the whole assembly at the face of the outer= =20 ring of the magnet when placed on edge. A bead of epoxy is all that is requi= red=20 to keep the iron bar from slipping once you have it perfectly centered in th= e=20 pole plate. The epoxy also seals the gap from foreign bodies (and domestic,=20= for=20 that matter). The outer pole ring conveniently has a ring of 8-32 pem-nut=20 fasteners included at no extra charge, so a simple aluminum plate can be=20 fashioned to attach the whole mess to the end of your boom. No additional ma= ss=20 is necessary as the entire assembly weighs in at about 8 pounds."
 
---Bob
 
 



See what's new= at AOL.com an= d Make AOL Your Homepage.
Subject: re: A neodymium "speaker coil" like magnet arrangement review From: "meredith lamb" paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2007 20:29:02 -0600 Hi all, Chris Chapman suggested a iron/steel "L" bracket to the sides of the upright magnets to enhance the internal coil field gauss. I tried a rough equivalent iron block, and see about a 100% peak voltage increase (from the previous ~5v to ~10v) with the coil displacement! Thanks Chris! I added a new picture and text to the bottom of the same web page: http://www.geocities.com/meredithlamb/neodymium.html Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
Chris Chapman suggested a iron/steel "L" bracket to the sides of the upright magnets to enhance
the internal coil field gauss.  I tried a rough equivalent iron block, and see about a 100% peak
voltage increase (from the previous ~5v to ~10v) with the coil displacement!  Thanks Chris!
 
I added a new picture and text to the bottom of the same web page:
 
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
 
 
 
Subject: Mystery event From: tchannel1@............ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:13:51 -0600 Hi Folks, I see an event 070917.081500? It looks like an after shock = of the 4.8 Gulf of California....However I do not see anything posted = for this time. I guess its around a 3.0? and the event is clear, but I can't identify = it. Thanks,=20 Ted
Hi Folks,  I see an event=20 070917.081500?   It looks like an after shock of the 4.8 Gulf = of=20 California....However I do not see anything posted for this = time.
I guess its around a 3.0? and the event = is clear,=20 but I can't identify it.
Thanks,
Ted
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:15:06 -0500 Midwest helicorders(St. Louis &etc) show a little something between ~ = 8:14 and 8:25 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: tchannel1@............... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 10:13 AM Subject: Mystery event Hi Folks, I see an event 070917.081500? It looks like an after = shock of the 4.8 Gulf of California....However I do not see anything = posted for this time. I guess its around a 3.0? and the event is clear, but I can't identify = it. Thanks,=20 Ted
Midwest helicorders(St. Louis &etc) =  show=20 a little something between ~ 8:14 and=20 8:25
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 tchannel1@............ =
Sent: Monday, September 17, = 2007 10:13=20 AM
Subject: Mystery event

Hi Folks,  I see an event=20 070917.081500?   It looks like an after shock of the 4.8 = Gulf of=20 California....However I do not see anything posted for this = time.
I guess its around a 3.0? and the = event is clear,=20 but I can't identify it.
Thanks,
Ted
Subject: Monthly USGS Lectures - Archived Videos snd More From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 15:27:24 -0500 Greetings All, As the old saying goes, "Even a blind hog will find an acorn sometimes." Well, I think that I have found mine and want to share it with those that do not know this is available. http://online.wr.usgs.gov/calendar/archives.html is the website for archived monthly lectures, most video taped, and available for viewing online. Some are lengthily, an hour or so, but very informative. If you have never visited this site, unable to attend; then enjoy. I do. Best Regards, Jerry Payton
Greetings All,
 
As the old saying goes, "Even a blind hog will find an acorn=20 sometimes."  Well, I think that I have found mine and want to share = it with=20 those that do not know this is available.
 
http://online.w= r.usgs.gov/calendar/archives.html =20 is the website for archived monthly lectures, most video taped, and = available=20 for viewing online. Some are lengthily, an hour or so, but very=20 informative.
 
If you have never visited this site, unable to attend; then = enjoy.  I=20 do.
 
Best Regards,
Jerry Payton
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: AHrubetz@....... Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:08:18 EDT Hi Ted, I recorded a strong event in Dallas at 070917.081143 on all three recorders. It was strongest on the short period N-S horizontal. I was prepared to post it but found no report on same. Al Hrubetz ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Hi Ted,
    I recorded a strong event in Dallas at=20 070917.081143 on all three recorders.  It was strongest on the short pe= riod=20 N-S horizontal.  I was prepared to post it but found no repor= t on=20 same.
    Al=20 Hrubetz



See what'= s new at AOL.co= m and Make AOL Your Homepage.
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 17:44:44 -0500 Most all these helicorders record a short event (explosion??) in that time frame. http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml Jerry Payton
Most all these helicorders record a = short=20 event (explosion??) in that time frame.
http://asl= www.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml
 
Jerry = Payton
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Stephen & Kathy skmort@............ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 00:52:15 -0700 What about a sonic boom from a meteor?? Say from somewhere around south Baja passing over Texas up through Ohio and maybe on through and back out into space??? What else would create approx. the same size trace from Texas to Ohio with early times in Arizona, (about 08:06 UTC) later times in Texas, then Ohio and finally Maine, (about 08:23 UTC)??? And be small in magnitude, but recorded in most of the USA and into Central America??? Just a wild guess??? Stephen Jerry Payton wrote: > Most all these helicorders record a short event (explosion??) in that > time frame. > http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml > > Jerry Payton What about a sonic boom from a meteor??=A0 Say from= somewhere around south Baja passing over Texas up through Ohio and maybe on through and back out into space???=A0=A0 What else would create=A0= approx. the same size trace from Texas to Ohio with early times in Arizona, (about 08:06 UTC) later times in Texas, then Ohio and finally Maine, (about 08:23 UTC)??? =A0 And be small in magnitude, but recorded in most of the USA and into Central America???=A0 Just a wild guess??? =A0 Stephen=A0

Jerry Payton wrote:
Most all these helicorders record a= short event (explosion??) in that time frame.
=A0
Jerry Payton
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 03:36:08 -0700 Are you able to say for sure source of the seismic energy was moving ? I was aware of no sonic booms 30 miles east of Phoenix but then I might have been sleeping since 0800 UTC is 0100 MST. My seismic recorder got nothing here most probably because I am making a new modulo recording program and had the alarm threshold set quite high to avoid the storms and vehicular noises here. This signal of yours sounds quite interestering. There used to be a SR-71 fly over Arizona making sonic booms while testing cell phone links ( probly doppler problems ) but that was a few years back and nothing but funny acting slow flying harrier since then. A low meteor might not be seen because of the storms we have had here lately cause heavy clouds but one that big like you are thinking would light the sky like daylight and nothing like that has been heard of around here. Meteors are very interesting if you can stay up all night and watch them with good eyesight. I have seen fanrastic explosions high in the sky with no associated sounds as well as a meteor storm that looked like the iris of god staring down upon the earth from the north east it also moved ( not in position but in streaks radiating fom the center hole ) in a way that gave the impression of terriffic speed like the Earth was going into a faint wormhole. No one else reported this meteor storm of dust so I just kept it to myself all these years. It all was over in only a few seconds. I think the Earth passed straight through the comets orbit that left the dust. Not sure but it might have been the persid meteors. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen & Kathy" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 12:52 AM Subject: Re: Mystery event > What about a sonic boom from a meteor?? Say from somewhere around south > Baja passing over Texas up through Ohio and maybe on through and back > out into space??? What else would create approx. the same size trace > from Texas to Ohio with early times in Arizona, (about 08:06 UTC) later > times in Texas, then Ohio and finally Maine, (about 08:23 UTC)??? And > be small in magnitude, but recorded in most of the USA and into Central > America??? Just a wild guess??? > Stephen > > Jerry Payton wrote: >> Most all these helicorders record a short event (explosion??) in that >> time frame. >> http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml >> >> Jerry Payton > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 08:30:30 -0500 I would not suspect that the event was moving, but could be. A close study of the times of the displays on: http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml looks like to me that the earliest displays were somewhere toward the SW. Stations showing later times were toward the East, Northeast and Northwest and eventually none at all. I'm sure if we had the raw data from these various stations, a triangulation could be made to locate the approximate focus. (It would be a very interesting experiment and test for us pseudo-seismologists.) Depth and nature is another story. With all the news sources focused on Mr. O.J., no telling what might have gone unreported. It is really a mystery, so to speak. A seismic "bump" from a mine in Utah and recorded in Houston, TX was amazing to me. Jerry Payton ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephen & Kathy To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:52 AM Subject: Re: Mystery event What about a sonic boom from a meteor?? Say from somewhere around south Baja passing over Texas up through Ohio and maybe on through and back out into space??? What else would create approx. the same size trace from Texas to Ohio with early times in Arizona, (about 08:06 UTC) later times in Texas, then Ohio and finally Maine, (about 08:23 UTC)??? And be small in magnitude, but recorded in most of the USA and into Central America??? Just a wild guess??? Stephen Jerry Payton wrote: Most all these helicorders record a short event (explosion??) in that time frame. http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml Jerry Payton
I would not suspect that the event was moving, but could be.  = A close=20 study of the times of the displays on: =20
http://asl= www.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml  
looks like to me that the earliest displays = were somewhere toward=20 the SW.  Stations showing later times were toward the East, = Northeast=20 and Northwest and eventually none at all.  I'm sure if we had the=20 raw data from these various stations, a triangulation could be made = to=20 locate the approximate focus. (It would be a very interesting experiment = and=20 test for us pseudo-seismologists.)  Depth and nature is another=20 story.
 
With all the news sources focused on Mr. O.J., no telling what = might have=20 gone unreported.  It is really a mystery, so to speak.  = A seismic=20 "bump" from a mine in Utah and recorded in Houston, TX was amazing = to=20 me.
 
Jerry Payton
 
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Stephen = &=20 Kathy
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: Mystery event

What about a sonic boom from a = meteor?? =20 Say from somewhere around south Baja passing over Texas up through Ohio = and=20 maybe on through and back out into space???   What else would=20 create  approx. the same size trace from Texas to Ohio with early = times in=20 Arizona, (about 08:06 UTC) later times in Texas, then Ohio and finally = Maine,=20 (about 08:23 UTC)???   And be small in magnitude, but recorded in = most of=20 the USA and into Central America???  Just a wild guess???
  = Stephen 

Jerry Payton wrote:=20
Most all these helicorders record = a short=20 event (explosion??) in that time frame.
http://asl= www.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml
 
Jerry=20 Payton
Subject: EQ's in Indonesia From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:00:45 -0500 CNN just showed an interesting video about an USGS geologist in the Indonesia area and his efforts regarding earthquakes. I could not find the video, but here is the link to an article. Also read the "Don't Miss" articles too. He is expecting "the BIG One" (maybe a 9) in that area soon. We'll see, huh? http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/09/17/indonesia.quake/index.html Jerry Payton
CNN just showed an interesting video about an USGS geologist = in the=20 Indonesia area and his efforts regarding earthquakes.  I could not = find the=20 video, but here is the link to an article.  Also read the "Don't = Miss"=20 articles too.  He is expecting "the BIG One" (maybe a 9)  in = that area=20 soon.  We'll see, huh?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/09/17/indonesia.quake/index.= html
 
Jerry Payton
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 07:32:18 -0700 I happen to be aware of the fact that the USGS records practically everything that causes the earth to move but only reports a fraction of the signals. I think you would have to be military intelligence people to see and understand most everything. The military keeps a data base for just about everything that can be sensed and tries to id as much as it can then speculates or makes educated guesses from various scientists to guess the unknowns. These data bases are typically secret and they will not normally share their knowledge and understanding with the public. In my opinion the US Gov is playing GOD with its people using the vast data base it possesses. The most frightening thing government collects is data on human activities and they can arrange to get peoples together at the darndest times. Sort of like a GOD or Devil or Witch whatever you want to call it. Someone knows what your signal is and you should be satisfied with that knowledge. They are very touchy about their intellegence data bases. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Payton" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 6:30 AM Subject: Re: Mystery event >I would not suspect that the event was moving, but could be. A close study > of the times of the displays on: > http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml > looks like to me that the earliest displays were somewhere toward the SW. > Stations showing later times were toward the East, Northeast and Northwest > and eventually none at all. I'm sure if we had the raw data from these > various stations, a triangulation could be made to locate the approximate > focus. (It would be a very interesting experiment and test for us > pseudo-seismologists.) Depth and nature is another story. > > With all the news sources focused on Mr. O.J., no telling what might have > gone unreported. It is really a mystery, so to speak. A seismic "bump" > from a mine in Utah and recorded in Houston, TX was amazing to me. > > Jerry Payton > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Stephen & Kathy > To: psn-l@.............. > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:52 AM > Subject: Re: Mystery event > > > What about a sonic boom from a meteor?? Say from somewhere around south > Baja passing over Texas up through Ohio and maybe on through and back out > into space??? What else would create approx. the same size trace from > Texas to Ohio with early times in Arizona, (about 08:06 UTC) later times in > Texas, then Ohio and finally Maine, (about 08:23 UTC)??? And be small in > magnitude, but recorded in most of the USA and into Central America??? Just > a wild guess??? > Stephen > > Jerry Payton wrote: > Most all these helicorders record a short event (explosion??) in that time > frame. > http://aslwww.cr.usgs.gov/Seismic_Data/heli2_us.shtml > > Jerry Payton > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:52:58 -0700 I downloaded data from the TUC receiver (STS-1) for a one hour block 0800 to 0900 UTC on September 17 from IRIS through the VASE program. The Tucson sensor records at 20 SPS. It most likely is a seismic event; however, it is weak enough that initial P & S waves are indistinct. The surface waves (LQ & LR) were visible at elevated levels for over 4 minutes. I have recorded supersonic overflights at my station (west of Tucson) before and you get two sharp spikes, very close together, and nothing that resembles surface waves. I normally record at 100 SPS. This event was recorded by several sensors from the US Network and displayed on the ASL heliplots. The displays from ASL are filtered at 0.02 hz, which is a long period display. Bob Hancock __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Stephen & Kathy skmort@............ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:07:46 -0700 Interesting,, I'm amazed that such a small seismic event could be recorded from Alaska to South America, Hawaii to Norway with essentially a constant magnitude from Texas to Ohio with the Texas to Ohio time displacement of about 6 minutes??? And the real mystery, why isn't it listed??? The European-Mediterranean Seismological Centre has a 4.1 automated event listed for Honduras for about the right time, but I can't imagine it would be recorded in Hawaii, Alaska and Norway??? Stephen Bob Hancock wrote: > I downloaded data from the TUC receiver (STS-1) for a one hour block 0800 to > 0900 UTC on September 17 from IRIS through the VASE program. The Tucson > sensor records at 20 SPS. It most likely is a seismic event; however, it is > weak enough that initial P & S waves are indistinct. The surface waves (LQ > & LR) were visible at elevated levels for over 4 minutes. > > I have recorded supersonic overflights at my station (west of Tucson) before > and you get two sharp spikes, very close together, and nothing that > resembles surface waves. I normally record at 100 SPS. > > This event was recorded by several sensors from the US Network and displayed > on the ASL heliplots. The displays from ASL are filtered at 0.02 hz, which > is a long period display. > > Bob Hancock > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > Interesting,,   I'm amazed that such a small seismic event could be recorded from Alaska to South America, Hawaii to Norway with essentially a constant magnitude from Texas to Ohio with the Texas to Ohio time displacement of about 6 minutes???   And the real mystery,  why isn't it listed???   The European-Mediterranean Seismological Centre has a 4.1 automated event listed for Honduras for about the right time, but I can't imagine it would be recorded in Hawaii, Alaska and Norway???
  Stephen

Bob Hancock wrote: 
I downloaded data from the TUC receiver (STS-1) for a one hour block 0800 to
0900 UTC on September 17 from IRIS through the VASE program.  The Tucson
sensor records at 20 SPS.  It most likely is a seismic event; however, it is
weak enough that initial P & S waves are indistinct.  The surface waves (LQ
& LR) were visible at elevated levels for over 4 minutes.

I have recorded supersonic overflights at my station (west of Tucson) before
and you get two sharp spikes, very close together, and nothing that
resembles surface waves.  I normally record at 100 SPS.

This event was recorded by several sensors from the US Network and displayed
on the ASL heliplots.  The displays from ASL are filtered at 0.02 hz, which
is a long period display.

Bob Hancock




__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with 
the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 13:40:31 -0700 Stephen - GOOD QUESTION !!! On September 11, there was a seismic event in Eastern AZ= , that prompted telephone calls to the University of Arizona, and was recorde= d by several stations including Tucson, AZ Albuquerque, NM and several Transportable Array (TA) stations in between. It was not listed on the USG= S web site. I have seen several events over the past few years where I have recorded something, usually surface waves with indistinct body waves, and they were not listed. There is a distinct lack of seismometers south of our border. There is new station coming on line in a few months at the tip of Baja California, Mexico, and another in the Yucatan. Other than that you have to stick to the southern US, Puerto Rico, or South America, and South America is very thin. I don=B9t know why some events are not listed, but it may have to do with the lack of sufficient stations for good determination of all their required data. If you want to see where all the seismometers in the world are located, I would suggest that you go to the IRIS web site http://dmc.iris.washington.edu/ and select software. Scroll down and download the GEE program. It will run on both a MAC and an a PC. When you run the program, you can see where the stations are. Its a fun program to play with and has many nice capabilities. If you want you can download event data from several stations through IRIS, and view the SAC files using GEE. I have read in and viewed over 20 stations more than once. Its a nic= e way to start looking at comparing stations and how they record events. WinQuake will also read SAC files, but it does not read all the header and you many need to manually reload the event data to get all the functions of =B3WinQuake to work properly. You can download events through Wilber II, another nice feature available through IRIS. Take a look at their web site, they have a lot to offer. Another program to consider downloading would be VASE. It allows you to specify a station, and a block of time to download data. These files have station data, but don=B9t have event data. However, they can still be read by WinQuake. Bob Hancock On 9/18/07 1:07 PM, "Stephen & Kathy" wrote: > Interesting,, I'm amazed that such a small seismic event could be recor= ded > from Alaska to South America, Hawaii to Norway with essentially a constan= t > magnitude from Texas to Ohio with the Texas to Ohio time displacement of = about > 6 minutes??? And the real mystery, why isn't it listed??? The > European-Mediterranean Seismological Centre has a 4.1 automated event lis= ted > for Honduras for about the right time, but I can't imagine it would be > recorded in Hawaii, Alaska and Norway??? > Stephen >=20 > Bob Hancock wrote: >> =20 >> I downloaded data from the TUC receiver (STS-1) for a one hour block 080= 0 to >> 0900 UTC on September 17 from IRIS through the VASE program. The Tucson >> sensor records at 20 SPS. It most likely is a seismic event; however, i= t is >> weak enough that initial P & S waves are indistinct. The surface waves = (LQ >> & LR) were visible at elevated levels for over 4 minutes. >>=20 >> I have recorded supersonic overflights at my station (west of Tucson) be= fore >> and you get two sharp spikes, very close together, and nothing that >> resembles surface waves. I normally record at 100 SPS. >>=20 >> This event was recorded by several sensors from the US Network and displ= ayed >> on the ASL heliplots. The displays from ASL are filtered at 0.02 hz, wh= ich >> is a long period display. >>=20 >> Bob Hancock >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> __________________________________________________________ >>=20 >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >>=20 >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >>=20 >>=20 >> =20 >=20 Re: Mystery event &nbs= p;  Stephen -

GOOD QUESTION !!!  On September 11, there was a seismic event in Easte= rn AZ, that prompted telephone calls to the University of Arizona, and was r= ecorded by several stations including Tucson, AZ Albuquerque, NM and several= Transportable Array (TA) stations in between.  It was not listed on th= e USGS web site.  I have seen several events over the past few years wh= ere I have recorded something, usually surface waves with indistinct body wa= ves, and they were not listed.

There is a distinct lack of seismometers south of our border.  There i= s new station coming on line in a few months at the tip of Baja California, = Mexico, and another in the Yucatan.  Other than that you have to stick = to the southern US, Puerto Rico, or South America, and South America is very= thin.  I don’t know why some events are not listed, but it may h= ave to do with the lack of sufficient stations for good determination of all= their required data.

If you want to see where all the seismometers in the world are located, I w= ould suggest that you go to the IRIS web site    http://dmc.iris.washington.edu/  &nbs= p;  and select software.  Scroll down and download the GEE pr= ogram.  It will run on both a MAC and an a PC.  When you run the p= rogram, you can see where the stations are.  Its a fun program to play = with and has many nice capabilities.  If you want you can download even= t data from several stations through IRIS, and view the SAC files using GEE.=  I have read in and viewed over 20 stations more than once.  Its = a nice way to start looking at comparing stations and how they record events= ..  WinQuake will also read SAC files, but it does not read all the head= er and you many need to manually reload the event data to get all the functi= ons of “WinQuake to work properly.

You can download events through Wilber II, another nice feature available t= hrough IRIS.  Take a look at their web site, they have a lot to offer.<= BR>
Another program to consider downloading would be VASE.  It allows you = to specify a station, and a block of time to download data.  These file= s have station data, but don’t have event data.   However, t= hey can still be read by WinQuake.

Bob Hancock



On 9/18/07 1:07 PM, "Stephen & Kathy" <skmort@............. > wrote:

<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:14.0px'>Interesting,,   I'm amazed that such= a small seismic event could be recorded from Alaska to South America, Hawai= i to Norway with essentially a constant magnitude from Texas to Ohio with th= e Texas to Ohio time displacement of about 6 minutes???   And the = real mystery,  why isn't it listed???   The European-Mediterr= anean Seismological Centre has a 4.1 automated event listed for Honduras for= about the right time, but I can't imagine it would be recorded in Hawaii, A= laska and Norway???
  Stephen

Bob Hancock wrote:

I downloaded data from the TUC receiver (STS-1) for a one hour block 0800 t= o
0900 UTC on September 17 from IRIS through the VASE program.  The Tucs= on
sensor records at 20 SPS.  It most likely is a seismic event; however,= it is
weak enough that initial P & S waves are indistinct.  The surface = waves (LQ
& LR) were visible at elevated levels for over 4 minutes.

I have recorded supersonic overflights at my station (west of Tucson) befor= e
and you get two sharp spikes, very close together, and nothing that
resembles surface waves.  I normally record at 100 SPS.

This event was recorded by several sensors from the US Network and displaye= d
on the ASL heliplots.  The displays from ASL are filtered at 0.02 hz, = which
is a long period display.

Bob Hancock




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Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

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 Subject: Re: Mystery event From: =?windows-1252?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:18:53 +0000 Hi I am not home at the moment, but maybe this gives a clue. http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/09/18/1625224 It appears that meteor hit Peru on Monday and as a resault, people close to the source of the meteor got sick, why they got sick is still unkown. This might be related to the unkown event. Regards. Jón Frímann. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Stephen & Kathy skmort@............ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:26:42 -0700 FYI, It looks like that meteor (or whatever?) was about a day and a half = earlier??? Mid day Saturday! Stephen J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote: > Hi > > I am not home at the moment, but maybe this gives a clue. > > http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=3D07/09/18/1625224 > > It appears that meteor hit Peru on Monday and as a resault, people=20 > close to the source of the meteor got sick, why they got sick is still = > unkown. This might be related to the unkown event. > > Regards. > J=F3n Fr=EDmann. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of = > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > FYI, It looks like that meteor (or whatever?) was about a day and a half earlier???=A0=A0 Mid day Saturday!
=A0=A0 Stephen


J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote:
Hi

I am not home at the moment, but maybe this gives a clue.

http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?s= id=3D07/09/18/1625224

It appears that meteor hit Peru on Monday and as a resault, people close to the source of the meteor got sick, why they got sick is still unkown. This might be related to the unkown event.

Regards.
J=F3n Fr=EDmann.
__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with = the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more infor= mation.


Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Stephen & Kathy skmort@............ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:43:34 -0700 Thanks, I was wondering how we could look at the seismograms after they roll off the 24 hour web sites,, the 24 hour seismgrams were the ones I used to see where the event was recorded, the relative magnitude and timing, and come up with my wild speculation, ha! Stephen Bob Hancock wrote: > Stephen - > > GOOD QUESTION !!! On September 11, there was a seismic event in > Eastern AZ, that prompted telephone calls to the University of > Arizona, and was recorded by several stations including Tucson, AZ > Albuquerque, NM and several Transportable Array (TA) stations in > between. It was not listed on the USGS web site. I have seen several > events over the past few years where I have recorded something, > usually surface waves with indistinct body waves, and they were not > listed. > > There is a distinct lack of seismometers south of our border. There > is new station coming on line in a few months at the tip of Baja > California, Mexico, and another in the Yucatan. Other than that you > have to stick to the southern US, Puerto Rico, or South America, and > South America is very thin. I don't know why some events are not > listed, but it may have to do with the lack of sufficient stations for > good determination of all their required data. > > If you want to see where all the seismometers in the world are > located, I would suggest that you go to the IRIS web site > http://dmc.iris.washington.edu/ and select software. Scroll > down and download the GEE program. It will run on both a MAC and an a > PC. When you run the program, you can see where the stations are. > Its a fun program to play with and has many nice capabilities. If > you want you can download event data from several stations through > IRIS, and view the SAC files using GEE. I have read in and viewed > over 20 stations more than once. Its a nice way to start looking at > comparing stations and how they record events. WinQuake will also > read SAC files, but it does not read all the header and you many need > to manually reload the event data to get all the functions of > "WinQuake to work properly. > > You can download events through Wilber II, another nice feature > available through IRIS. Take a look at their web site, they have a > lot to offer. > > Another program to consider downloading would be VASE. It allows you > to specify a station, and a block of time to download data. These > files have station data, but don't have event data. However, they > can still be read by WinQuake. > > Bob Hancock > > Thanks, I was wondering how we could look at the seismograms after they roll off the 24 hour web sites,,   the 24 hour seismgrams were the ones I used to see where the event was recorded, the relative magnitude and timing, and come up with my wild speculation, ha!  
  Stephen

Bob Hancock wrote:
Re: Mystery event    Stephen -

GOOD QUESTION !!!  On September 11, there was a seismic event in Eastern AZ, that prompted telephone calls to the University of Arizona, and was recorded by several stations including Tucson, AZ Albuquerque, NM and several Transportable Array (TA) stations in between.  It was not listed on the USGS web site.  I have seen several events over the past few years where I have recorded something, usually surface waves with indistinct body waves, and they were not listed.

There is a distinct lack of seismometers south of our border.  There is new station coming on line in a few months at the tip of Baja California, Mexico, and another in the Yucatan.  Other than that you have to stick to the southern US, Puerto Rico, or South America, and South America is very thin.  I don’t know why some events are not listed, but it may have to do with the lack of sufficient stations for good determination of all their required data.

If you want to see where all the seismometers in the world are located, I would suggest that you go to the IRIS web site    http://dmc.iris.washington.edu/     and select software.  Scroll down and download the GEE program.  It will run on both a MAC and an a PC.  When you run the program, you can see where the stations are.  Its a fun program to play with and has many nice capabilities.  If you want you can download event data from several stations through IRIS, and view the SAC files using GEE.  I have read in and viewed over 20 stations more than once.  Its a nice way to start looking at comparing stations and how they record events.  WinQuake will also read SAC files, but it does not read all the header and you many need to manually reload the event data to get all the functions of “WinQuake to work properly.

You can download events through Wilber II, another nice feature available through IRIS.  Take a look at their web site, they have a lot to offer.

Another program to consider downloading would be VASE.  It allows you to specify a station, and a block of time to download data.  These files have station data, but don’t have event data.   However, they can still be read by WinQuake.

Bob Hancock
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: =?windows-1252?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:46:47 +0000 Hi There might have been more then one meteor or it broke up and other pice did go somewhere else. Regards. Jón Frímann. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:56:11 -0700 I believe there are some physicists that follow this site. I would like to know what they think about the energy involved to make a crater 30 meters across and 6 meters deep, and how that would translate into magnitude. My guess is that it would be very low and hardly register..but then again I could be wrong. I look forward to hearing what they say. Bob Hancock =20 On 9/18/07 4:46 PM, "J=F3n Fr=EDmann" wrote: > Hi >=20 > There might have been more then one meteor or it broke up and other pice > did go somewhere else. >=20 > Regards. > J=F3n Fr=EDmann. > __________________________________________________________ >=20 > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >=20 > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Stephen & Kathy skmort@............ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 16:59:05 -0700 My speculation on a meteor type event was based on my debatable skills of reading an approx. equal value for the magnitude for Stations from Texas to Ohio while showing a difference in time??? My simple minded explanation deduced a moving event??? Stephen Geoff wrote: > Are you able to say for sure source of the > seismic energy was moving ? > My speculation on a meteor type event was based on my debatable skills of reading an approx. equal value for the magnitude for Stations from Texas to Ohio while showing a difference in time???=A0=A0= My simple minded explanation deduced a moving event???
=A0 Stephen



Geoff wrote:
Are you able to say for sure source of the
seismic energy was moving ?

Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Brad Douglas rez@.................. Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:27:17 -0700 On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 16:56 -0700, Bob Hancock wrote: > I believe there are some physicists that follow this site. I would like to > know what they think about the energy involved to make a crater 30 meters > across and 6 meters deep, and how that would translate into magnitude. A 5m crater releases on the order of 4.2-4.6GJ of energy equivalent to a Richter M2. There is little literature on craters of this size, so a little extrapolation is in order. I would say a 30mx6m crater would generate no more than a M3. -- 73, de Brad KB8UYR/6 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:36:01 +1200 Brad Douglas wrote: > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 16:56 -0700, Bob Hancock wrote: >> I believe there are some physicists that follow this site. I would like to >> know what they think about the energy involved to make a crater 30 meters >> across and 6 meters deep, and how that would translate into magnitude. > > A 5m crater releases on the order of 4.2-4.6GJ of energy equivalent to a > Richter M2. > > There is little literature on craters of this size, so a little > extrapolation is in order. I would say a 30mx6m crater would generate > no more than a M3. Computing Projectile Size from Crater Diameter http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater_p.html Scientist Confirms Meteorite in Puno, Peru is a Chondrite > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4730-environmentnature-scientist-confirms-meteorite-in-puno-peru-is-a-chondrite -- regards Mark __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: Brad Douglas rez@.................. Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 21:39:01 -0700 On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 15:36 +1200, Mark Robinson wrote: > Brad Douglas wrote: > > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 16:56 -0700, Bob Hancock wrote: > >> I believe there are some physicists that follow this site. I would like to > >> know what they think about the energy involved to make a crater 30 meters > >> across and 6 meters deep, and how that would translate into magnitude. > > > > A 5m crater releases on the order of 4.2-4.6GJ of energy equivalent to a > > Richter M2. > > > > There is little literature on craters of this size, so a little > > extrapolation is in order. I would say a 30mx6m crater would generate > > no more than a M3. > > Computing Projectile Size from Crater Diameter > http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater_p.html Nice find! I've used similar pages before, but was not able to re-find from a quick Google search, so I had to revert to my GSA handbook of meteor impacts, which only covers large impacts. Using the above URL, it estimates (using conservative values) energy release of 20.29TJ (5.48kT TNT), which is ~M4.2. That seems overly large. Was the impact, itself, recorded by seismometers? > Scientist Confirms Meteorite in Puno, Peru is a Chondrite > > http://www.livinginperu.com/news-4730-environmentnature-scientist-confirms-meteorite-in-puno-peru-is-a-chondrite Good info. Has anyone found reports of eyewitness accounts of impact/pre-impact? I'm particularly interested in trajectory. This will help determine if the unusual "sonic boom" is a related fragment. I may have to wait for the geophysical assessment for that. Sorry if I'm a off-topic/out of order. I'm usually a lurker, but meteor impacts are an interest of mine. -- 73, de Brad KB8UYR/6 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 02:56:27 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/19, rez@.................. writes: > On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 15:36 +1200, Mark Robinson wrote: > > Brad Douglas wrote: > > > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 16:56 -0700, Bob Hancock wrote: > > >> I believe there are some physicists that follow this site. I would > like to > > >> know what they think about the energy involved to make a crater 30 > meters > > >> across and 6 meters deep, and how that would translate into magnitude. > > > > > > A 5m crater releases on the order of 4.2-4.6GJ of energy equivalent to a > > > Richter M2. > > > > > > There is little literature on craters of this size, so a little > > > extrapolation is in order. I would say a 30mx6m crater would generate > > > no more than a M3. > > > > Computing Projectile Size from Crater Diameter > > http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater_p.html Hi there, You can pick up both sonic booms and impacts with a seismometer. Since a meteor is coming in a very high speed and burning up as it does so, sorting out which effects are dominant might not be so easy. Does the signal have a couple of peaks separated by a few seconds? The velocity of sound in air is much slower than that in the earth. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/19, rez@.................. writes:

On Wed, 2007-09-19 at 15:36 +12= 00, Mark Robinson wrote:
> Brad Douglas wrote:
> > On Tue, 2007-09-18 at 16:56 -0700, Bob Hancock wrote:
> >> I believe there are some physicists that follow this site.&nbs= p; I would like to
> >> know what they think about the energy involved to make a crate= r 30 meters
> >> across and 6 meters deep, and how that would translate into ma= gnitude.
> >
> > A 5m crater releases on the order of 4.2-4.6GJ of energy equivalen= t to a
> > Richter M2.
> >
> > There is little literature on craters of this size, so a little > > extrapolation is in order.  I would say a 30mx6m crater would= generate
> > no more than a M3.
>
> Computing Projectile Size from Crater Diameter
> http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/tekton/crater_p.html


Hi there,

       You can pick up both sonic booms and im= pacts with a seismometer. Since a meteor is coming in a very high speed and=20= burning up as it does so, sorting out which effects are dominant might not b= e so easy. Does the signal have a couple of peaks separated by a few seconds= ? The velocity of sound in air is much slower than that in the earth.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Mystery event From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 23:07:30 +0000 Hi all There are more details coming around on this meteor. More on it here, http://fe7.news.re3.yahoo.com/s/ap/peru_meteorite;_ylt=3DAsU2OF4h91hVBXHdD_= kthJnlWMcF Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 21:34:22 -0700 Nifty, I remember another fall that happened sometime ago possibly the old soviet union and the scientists were upset because the locals had disturbed the site before they could study it. If you have seismic reports that may indicate the path of the meteor it would be nice to point that fact out to either the scientists or newspapers. I have never heard of any meteors being seismically recorded until this one. NORAD or the DEW line used to watch meteors enter then go out with helicopters to see if they could find them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jón Frímann" To: Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Mystery event Hi all There are more details coming around on this meteor. More on it here, http://fe7.news.re3.yahoo.com/s/ap/peru_meteorite;_ylt=AsU2OF4h91hVBXHdD_kthJnlWMcF Regards. -- Jón Frímann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:26:44 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/22, jonfr@......... writes: > There are more details coming around on this meteor. More on it here, > http://fe7.news.re3.yahoo.com/s/ap/peru_meteorite;_ylt=AsU2OF4h91hVBXHdD_kthJ > nlWMcF Hi there, It certainly looks like a meteor crater. The journalist simply does not know what he is talking about. A meteorite may stay cold when it comes in through the atmosphere, but a few tons of rock will generate a huge amount of heat when it impacts the Earth at 40 km / sec. Not all meteorites contain iron. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/22, jonfr@......... writes:

There are more details coming a= round on this meteor. More on it here,
http://fe7.news.re3.yahoo.com/s/ap/peru_meteorite;_ylt=3DAsU2OF4h91hVBXHdD_k= thJnlWMcF


Hi there,
      
       It certainly looks like a meteor crater= .. The journalist simply does not know what he is talking about. A meteorite=20= may stay cold when it comes in through the atmosphere, but a few tons of roc= k will generate a huge amount of heat when it impacts the Earth at 40 km / s= ec.  Not all meteorites contain iron.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Jerry Payton" gpayton880@....... Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:14:01 -0500 Here is a late report on the meteorite two weeks ago.......... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298177,00.html
Here is a late report on the meteorite two weeks ago.......... http://www.fo= xnews.com/story/0,2933,298177,00.html
Subject: Re: Mystery event From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:53:05 -0700 Doesn't that hole look like a terminal velocity hole and not a 40km/sec hole ?? Wouldn;t a high velocity hole look more like an ant lions den instead of a cylender ?? possibly that rock is intact within the crater ?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Payton" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 7:14 AM Subject: Re: Mystery event > Here is a late report on the meteorite two weeks ago.......... > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,298177,00.html > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Mystery event From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:31:01 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/27, gmvoeth@........... writes: > Doesn't that hole look like a terminal velocity hole and not a 40km/sec > hole ?? > Wouldn't a high velocity hole look more like an > ant lions den instead of a cylinder ?? > possibly that rock is intact within the crater ?? Hi Jeff, I don't have anything to compare it with, but it looks reasonable to me. The subsoil is obviously deep and saturated with water, so the meteor would have penetrated below this level and then cooked everything. You would have had a physical vapourised water explosion following on the surface impact crater. If there were suplhides or arsenic compounds in the soil, some could have been released. I would not want to breathe in any pyrolised rock. The soil bacteria could also be well re-distributed. Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/27, gmvoeth@........... writes:

Doesn't that hole look like a t= erminal velocity hole and not a 40km/sec hole ??
Wouldn't a high velocity hole look more like an
ant lions den instead of a cylinder ??
possibly that rock is intact within the crater ??


Hi Jeff,

       I don't have anything to compare it wit= h, but it looks reasonable to me. The subsoil is obviously deep and saturate= d with water, so the meteor would have penetrated below this level and then=20= cooked everything. You would have had a physical vapourised water explosion=20= following on the surface impact crater. If there were suplhides or arsenic c= ompounds in the soil, some could have been released. I would not want to bre= athe in any pyrolised rock. The soil bacteria could also be well re-distribu= ted.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Mystery Event From: krol@............ Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:45:23 -0400 Here is a 1st-2nd hand evaluation.I heard the tape conversation last = night on C2C AM. http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=3D1321&category=3DScience Kim
Here is a 1st-2nd hand evaluation.I = heard the tape=20 conversation last night on C2C AM.
 
http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=3D1321&category=3DScience
 
Kim
Subject: Re: Mystery Event From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:06:04 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/27, krol@............ writes: > http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1321&category=Science Hi there, Justina must be very fit at 74 years of age. Meteorites come in well above the speed of sound, so you won't hear them till they have gone past or crash! Regards, Chris Chapman In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/27, krol@............ writes:

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.= php?ID=3D1321&category=3DScience


Hi there,

       Justina must be very fit at 74 years of= age. Meteorites come in well above the speed of sound, so you won't hear th= em till they have gone past or crash!

       Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Loyalty Island earthquake swarm From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr@......... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:31:26 +0000 Hi all The Loyalty Island earthquake swarm that started with a mb 6.1 earthquake yesterday. The swarm appears to be speeding up, two recent earthquakes after 00:00 GMT appears to be mb 5.7 and mb 6.4 (unconfirmed at the moment). I wonder if the earthquakes at the moment are pre-quakes before a bigger one, maybe a mag 8.0+ earthquake. I am going to see what happens. Regards. --=20 J=F3n Fr=EDmann http://www.jonfr.com http://earthquakes.jonfr.com http://www.net303.net http://www.mobile-coverage.com/ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Seismo online. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:13:54 -0400 Hello Folks, I will have my vertical seismograph online at this location. http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1 Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for now. I live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably won't see a lot of events. Local noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong local spikes when I walk into the room during the course of business. The website is still under construction so there are a lot of dead ends if you should chance to go exploring. More e-quake stuff as time permits. PauLC W1VLF
Hello=20 Folks,
I will=20 have my vertical seismograph online at this = location.
http://www.rescueelectronic= s.com/eq1
Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for=20 now.
 
I live=20 in Northwest Connecticut so you probably won't see a lot of=20 events.
Local=20 noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong local spikes when I walk = into the=20 room during the course of business.
The=20 website is still under construction so there are a lot of =  dead ends=20 if you should chance to go exploring.
 
More=20 e-quake stuff as time permits.
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 
Subject: Re: Seismo online. From: John Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:48:08 -0700 At 11:13 AM 9/28/2007, you wrote: >http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1 Paul, That isn't an image file! John __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Seismo online. From: "Dave \(Santa Dave\)" kc6old@............. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) VLF? GOTTA be a vanity call! de Dave Kc6old (NOT a vanity call!) Paul Cianciolo wrote: Hello Folks, I will have my vertical seismograph online at this location. http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1 Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for now. I live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably won't see a lot of events. Local noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong local spikes when I walk into the room during the course of business. The website is still under construction so there are a lot of dead ends if you should chance to go exploring. More e-quake stuff as time permits. PauLC W1VLF
VLF? GOTTA be a vanity call!
de Dave Kc6old (NOT a vanity call!)

Paul Cianciolo <Paulc@........> wrote:
Hello Folks,
I will have my vertical seismograph online at this location.
Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for now.
 
I live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably won't see a lot of events.
Local noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong local spikes when I walk into the room during the course of business.
The website is still under construction so there are a lot of  dead ends if you should chance to go exploring.
 
More e-quake stuff as time permits.
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 

Subject: Re: Seismo online. From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:15:30 -0500 Mag 3 earthquake at Conneaut Ohio @8:46:05 UTC 9/28/07 ... didn't = you copy it?
 
Mag 3 = earthquake at=20 Conneaut Ohio @8:46:05 UTC 9/28/07 ... didn't you copy=20 it?
Subject: Re: Seismo online. From: Jerry Darby n6ume@......... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:24:28 -0700 (PDT) Hey Dave. KC6OLD might not be a vanity call but...you are old! Jerry Darby N6UME --- "Dave (Santa Dave)" wrote: > VLF? GOTTA be a vanity call! > de Dave Kc6old (NOT a vanity call!) > > Paul Cianciolo wrote: > Hello Folks, > I will have my vertical seismograph online at this > location. > http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1 > Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for now. > > I live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably > won't see a lot of events. > Local noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong > local spikes when I walk into the room during the > course of business. > The website is still under construction so there > are a lot of dead ends if you should chance to go > exploring. > > More e-quake stuff as time permits. > > PauLC > W1VLF > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Seismo online. From: "Dave \(Santa Dave\)" kc6old@............. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:21:30 -0700 (PDT) And your'e not! Good to hear from you! Dave Jerry Darby wrote: Hey Dave. KC6OLD might not be a vanity call but...you are old! Jerry Darby N6UME --- "Dave (Santa Dave)" wrote: > VLF? GOTTA be a vanity call! > de Dave Kc6old (NOT a vanity call!) > > Paul Cianciolo wrote: > Hello Folks, > I will have my vertical seismograph online at this > location. > http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1 > Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for now. > > I live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably > won't see a lot of events. > Local noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong > local spikes when I walk into the room during the > course of business. > The website is still under construction so there > are a lot of dead ends if you should chance to go > exploring. > > More e-quake stuff as time permits. > > PauLC > W1VLF > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)
And your'e not!
Good to hear from you!
Dave

Jerry Darby <n6ume@.........> wrote:
Hey Dave.

KC6OLD might not be a vanity call but...you are old!

Jerry Darby
N6UME


--- "Dave (Santa Dave)" wrote:

> VLF? GOTTA be a vanity call!
> de Dave Kc6old (NOT a vanity call!)
>
> Paul Cianciolo wrote:
> Hello Folks,
> I will have my vertical seismograph online at this
> location.
> http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1
> Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for now.
>
> I live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably
> won't see a lot of events.
> Local noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong
> local spikes when I walk into the room during the
> course of business.
> The website is still under construction so there
> are a lot of dead ends if you should chance to go
> exploring.
>
> More e-quake stuff as time permits.
>
> PauLC
> W1VLF
>
>



____________________________________________________________________________________
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7

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Subject: RE: Seismo online. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:34:35 -0400 Yup ... Vanity call, about 5 years ago, was KB1RP before, and before that N1DCJ and before... WB1GAE -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Dave (Santa Dave) Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:54 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Seismo online. VLF? GOTTA be a vanity call! de Dave Kc6old (NOT a vanity call!) Paul Cianciolo wrote: Hello Folks, I will have my vertical seismograph online at this location. http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1 Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for now. I live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably won't see a lot of events. Local noise is apparent, as is some pretty strong local spikes when I walk into the room during the course of business. The website is still under construction so there are a lot of dead ends if you should chance to go exploring. More e-quake stuff as time permits. PauLC W1VLF
Yup=20 .... Vanity call, about 5 years ago, was KB1RP before, and before that = N1DCJ and=20 before... WB1GAE
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of Dave (Santa=20 Dave)
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:54 PM
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: Seismo=20 online.

VLF? GOTTA be a vanity call!
de Dave Kc6old (NOT a vanity call!)

Paul Cianciolo=20 <Paulc@........> wrote:
Hello Folks,
I=20 will have my vertical seismograph online at this=20 location.
http://www.rescueelectronic= s.com/eq1
Refresh rate is every 10 minutes for = now.
 
I=20 live in Northwest Connecticut so you probably won't see a lot of=20 events.
Local noise is apparent, as is some = pretty strong=20 local spikes when I walk into the room during the course of=20 business.
The website is still under construction = so there=20 are a lot of  dead ends if you should chance to go=20 exploring.
 
More e-quake stuff as time=20 permits.
 
PauLC
W1VLF
 

<= /HTML> Subject: Did anyone actually see the helicorder? From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:36:48 -0400 Did anyone actually see the helicorder? I seem to get it ok. John L Did you see it? PauLC
 
Did = anyone actually see=20 the helicorder? 
I seem to get it=20 ok.
 
John L  Did you see=20 it?
 
PauLC
 
Subject: RE: Seismo online. From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:39:42 -0400 I guess not. I am not sure I could see a 3.0 in Ohio from here Maybe something is wrong with the sensor -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Thomas Dick Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:16 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Seismo online. Mag 3 earthquake at Conneaut Ohio @8:46:05 UTC 9/28/07 ... didn't you copy it?
I=20 guess not.
 
I am=20 not sure I could see a 3.0 in Ohio from here
Maybe=20 something is wrong with the sensor
 
-----Original Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@................. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On Behalf Of Thomas=20 Dick
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:16 PM
To:=20 psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: Seismo=20 online.

 
Mag 3 = earthquake at=20 Conneaut Ohio @8:46:05 UTC 9/28/07 ... didn't you copy=20 it?
Subject: Re: Did anyone actually see the helicorder? From: Canie canie@........... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 15:14:59 -0700 I go to the link and it wants me to save the file to disk..  what is required to view it?

Canie

At 01:36 PM 9/28/2007, you wrote:
 
Did anyone actually see the helicorder?
I seem to get it ok.
 
John L  Did you see it?
 
PauLC
 
Subject: Seismo online. New URL From: "Paul Cianciolo" Paulc@........ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:49:24 -0400 Please try this. I am sorry I forgot to add the file extension http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1.jpg PauLC __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Did anyone actually see the helicorder? From: tchannel1@............ Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:32:16 -0600 Hi Paul, I saw it fine...........Ted ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Paul Cianciolo=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 2:36 PM Subject: Did anyone actually see the helicorder? Did anyone actually see the helicorder?=20 I seem to get it ok. John L Did you see it? PauLC
Hi Paul,  I saw it=20 fine...........Ted
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Paul = Cianciolo
Sent: Friday, September 28, = 2007 2:36=20 PM
Subject: Did anyone actually = see the=20 helicorder?

 
Did = anyone actually=20 see the helicorder? 
I seem to get it=20 ok.
 
John L  Did you see=20 it?
 
PauLC
 
Subject: Re: Did anyone actually see the helicorder? From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:50:55 EDT In a message dated 2007/09/28, canie@........... writes: > I go to the link and it wants me to save the file to disk.. what is > required to view it? > Hi Canie / Paul, I had problems too. I restarted my computer, called up http://www.rescueelectronics.com/ and then added the eq1 to get the drumplot. It did not seem to want to respond by copying the link. The 13:39 M7.4 from the Marianas is on screen at the moment. There seems to be very little, if any, long period response. I see large amplitude surface waves from 14:05, peaking at about 14:40, but I have a relative time delay of a few minutes. Regards, Chris In a me= ssage dated 2007/09/28, canie@........... writes:

I go to the link and it wants m= e to save the file to disk..  what is required to view it?

Hi Canie / Paul,

       I had problems too. I restarted my comp= uter, called up http://www.rescueelectronics.com/ and then added the eq1 to=20= get the drumplot. It did not seem to want to respond by copying the link.        The 13:39 M7.4 from the Marianas is on=20= screen at the moment. There seems to be very little, if any, long period res= ponse. I see large amplitude surface waves from 14:05, peaking at about 14:4= 0, but I have a relative time delay of a few minutes.

       Regards,

       Chris Subject: Re: Seismo online. New URL From: Canie canie@........... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:58:06 -0700 Yep - that works. Canie At 03:49 PM 9/28/2007, you wrote: >Please try this. >I am sorry I forgot to add the file extension > >http://www.rescueelectronics.com/eq1.jpg > >PauLC >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Did anyone actually see the helicorder? From: Bob Hancock carpediem1@......... Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 17:10:02 -0700 Came through fine when you first posted the link....no problems Bob Hancock On 9/28/07 1:36 PM, "Paul Cianciolo" wrote: > >> >> Did anyone actually see the helicorder? >> >> I seem to get it ok. >> >> >> >> John L Did you see it? >> >> >> >> PauLC >> >> > Re: Did anyone actually see the helicorder? Came = through fine when you first posted the link....no problems

Bob Hancock


On 9/28/07 1:36 PM, "Paul Cianciolo" <Paulc@........> wrote= :



Did anyone actually see  the helicorder?

I seem to get it ok.
 
 
John L  Did you see &n= bsp;it?
 
 
PauLC



Subject: Re: Seismo online. From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 20:51:18 -0500 Yup ... Vanity call, about 5 years ago, was KB1RP before, and before that N1DCJ and before... WB1GAE If I had changed my call that many times, I wouldn't remember what it was ....WA9QDZ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Seismo online. From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:55:24 -0700 Can we please take this offline? Thanks, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN Thomas Dick wrote: > > > Yup ... Vanity call, about 5 years ago, was KB1RP before, and before that > N1DCJ and before... WB1GAE > If I had changed my call that many times, I wouldn't remember what it was > ...WA9QDZ > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Testing setup. From: "Fikke, Audun" Audun.Fikke@......... Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 04:37:00 +0200 I'm daring my first post here... I'm building a Lehman with pipe-frame pretty much like the drawings found on Larrys web. I've replaced the lower pivot point knife edge solution with a PDC- industrial diamond cutter + steel ball bearing. The cutter was supplied by an oilfield bit salesman for free:) I couldn't come up with an idea for a smoother surface to fight friction. This is the support for a steel ball on the end of the boom. I've hooked it all up on a prototype wooden base (for now) to get the feeling for what it's gonna look like. I might end up permanently bolting the frame to the concrete floor in my shed. To adjust top pivot points distance from top beam, I'm using a 'fine-tuner' from a contrabas. It's got about 5mm of travel, and seems to do the trick. I got inspired by reading about steel guitar parts mounted on other sensors:) =20 Now I'm beginning to look at the frequency of the boom and I'm a little puzzled how to proceed with the tuning.=20 Should I strive to keep the boom horizontal at all times as I try to move upper pivot point closer to vertical with the lower? Are there rules of thumb to where the string and weight attaches too the boom? I've got 36inches to play with here.=20 Where should the balance point of the boom be located? At the string attachment point? Or if not -to what side? And at last I'd like to point out that in the construction notes, it's not stated that you should use non mag materials. I started to wonder about this and quickly found posts about this in the mailing list. So off I went again to the HW store to trade in my boom and shims. =20 Very well-- I'm leaving it running for the night, and hopefully I can proceed tomorrow with more knowledge from this group. Greetings from Norway Audun http://vindkast.no __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: GraGraph home earthquake meter From: "David Saum" DSaum@............ Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:40:00 -0400 Japanese http://www.gragraph.jp/ English http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/09/28/gragraph_home_e.html __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: GraGraph home earthquake meter From: "Kareem of Heyjoojoo" system98765@............. Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:35:27 -0700 So, who's the first to get one? -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of David Saum Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 3:40 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: GraGraph home earthquake meter Japanese http://www.gragraph.jp/ English http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/09/28/gragraph_home_e.html __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: GraGraph home earthquake meter From: JimT nyponen@......... Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 07:39:42 -0800 There is more info on this page: http://www.kilian-nakamura.com/catalog/gragraph-home-earthquake-seismograph= -p-176.html Here is what it says: The Gragraph is a home seismograph that warns you as an earthquake is occurring, measures the intensity, and records the data in its calendar. The verbal warnings are in Japanese, but the digital data can be easily accessed in any language. In normal mode, the Gragraph serves as a tabletop calendar/clock and a reference for past activity. Gragraph features: =95 Perceives shaking, and indicates on display =95 Warns of shaking with sound and voice =95 Indicates level from 3-10 =95 Keeps record of previous seismic activity =95 During the night, it activates a safety light =95 Calendar/Clock function Jim Turner On 9/29/07, psn-l-digest-request@.............. wrote: > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: GraGraph home earthquake meter > From: "David Saum" > Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 18:40:00 -0400 > > Japanese > http://www.gragraph.jp/ > > English > http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/2007/09/28/gragraph_home_e.html __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Fast Moment Ternsor List??? From: Stephen & Kathy skmort@............ Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:27:44 -0700 Question,, anyone know why the FM Tensor List is stuck at 14 Aug 2007? I know that I can get the info in a few days under the Scientific & Technical tab of the individual quakes at NEIC, but was wondering what happened to their FM Tensor list at the following link??? http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/FM/ Stephen PSN #55 Question,, anyone know why the FM Tensor List is stuck at 14 Aug 2007?
I know that I can get the info in a few days under the Scientific & Technical tab of the individual quakes at NEIC, but was wondering what happened to their FM Tensor list at the following link???
http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/FM/
 Stephen
 PSN #55