On 11/5/0= 5, John or Jan Lahr <JohnJan@........> wrote:

Hi Meredith,

Could you post a photo of this setup? 7+ hou= rs is quite impressive!

Cheers,
John

Subject: Brass plumbing compression tees, elbows; and their uses in amateur seismometer hinges/booms. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:53:44 -0700 Hi all, Credit Chris Chapman for bringing to attention the use of plumbing brass tees, elbows; and hobby shop brass tubing some time back! They are VERY handy and useful for a variety of hinge/boom setups of various designs of seismometers! There is a new variation of such, which I believe is even more use variable= , that is coming out on the American market. Too review a plumbing compression tee, and the old style, go to: http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-330-compression-tees.aspx On the upper left hand photo corner is a representative of the older style, that comes in a variety of tube/pipe sizes. Press/click, on the green "view options" oblong box. That box will show various sizes that will fit therein. Other tees, can come in various other configurations to reduce, etc., the sizes. These tees are unlike most plumbing "sizes" are they are instead a more exact size of the tube/rod used; i.e., plus or minus afew thousandths of a inch. Hence, a common hobby (or hardware store) with a K&S precision brass tube of say, 1/4" diameter, can be easily compression fitted into a like diameter compression tee. I've failed to find a good representative web image of the new style. Basically it looks like the old style, except, the new style will have what looks lik= e a small loose brass tube protruding aways from the ends of the tees and angles opening holes. I've found such at Home Depot (chain) stores. No...Ace Hardware (chain) only has the old style at the present. I've used both varietys of tees for my recent hinge/suspension tests. The old style will work for joining a rod to a boom where two hinge contacts were needed. The new variety is more variable in that it can be used for both a double contact hinge, and/or, for containment of a ball bearing, should one wish to use such for a seismometer hinge/suspension. For a ball bearing use; the little loose tube is extracted from the assembly and is turned around, and inserted into the compression nut end, where the broad funnel shaped end goes over the slightly extruded lip of the new tee variety. By lightly pressing down, the small tube will lightly lock (click) onto the extruded lip of the inner compression mechanism. I simply put various ball bearings in the "funnel", and held it while turning it over to mount o= n a variety of test contact surfaces. For your ball bearing use; it can of course be glued down with epoxy or whatever, and will likely hold the position quite well. Similar elbows, with the same small tube therein can of course be adopted for ball bearings setups (or two contact hinges) where other boom configurations may be more desireable. Use of these tees and elbows isn't a totally alignment free method, as the internal oval shaped compression loose tubes is designed to give a variety of angles to fit together. You will have to make sure your directional alignment with an= y boom is correct for your design. If it isn't, unscrewing the nut will allow readjustments, then tighten the nut/s again. On the sides of these tees and elbows there i= s a flat area, which with whatever other fixtures you wish to use, can be anchored down on a like flat surface, clamped, adjusted, and then have the nuts tightened; the alignment/s will be much better this way. Use of the 3 outlet/inlet compression tees, for a double hinge, or say, a crossed rod hinge/suspension assembly, should entail drilling out the internal bras= s that obstructs your rod going entirely through the parallel openings for which i= t will be used; then, installing the internal oval compression ring and/or nut...just to retain the straight shape of the rod. With the new tee variety, the compression locking mechanism is lightly attached to the compression nut itself. If you don't drill and just use the separate ends to install acouple separate rods, they will be assuredly not aligned...and your double hinge, or crossed rod hinge may suffer somewhat from that misalignment effect. Yes, they are alittle work, but alot less than trying to homebrew your own "T" joints. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

Credit Chris Chapman for bringing to attention the use of plumbing brass te= es,
elbows; and hobby shop brass tubing some time back! They are VERY han= dy
and useful for a variety of hinge/boom setups of various designs of seismom= eters!

There is a new variation of such, which I believe is even more use variable= , that
is coming out on the American market.

Too review a plumbing compression tee, and the old style, go to:

= http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-330-compression-tees.aspx

On the upper left hand photo corner is a representative of the older style,= that
comes in a variety of tube/pipe sizes. Press/click, on the green &quo= t;view options"
oblong box. That box will show various sizes that will fit therein.&n= bsp; Other tees,
can come in various other configurations to reduce, etc., the sizes. = These tees
are unlike most plumbing "sizes" are they are instead a more exac= t size of the
tube/rod used; i.e., plus or minus afew thousandths of a inch. Hence,= a
common hobby (or hardware store) with a K&S precision brass tube of say= ,
1/4" diameter, can be easily compression fitted into a like diameter c= ompression
tee.

I've failed to find a good representative web image of the new style. = Basically
it looks like the old style, except, the new style will have what looks lik= e a small
loose brass tube protruding aways from the ends of the tees and angles open= ing
holes. I've found such at Home Depot (chain) stores. No...Ace H= ardware (chain)
only has the old style at the present.

I've used both varietys of tees for my recent hinge/suspension tests. = The old
style will work for joining a rod to a boom where two hinge contacts were n= eeded.

The new variety is more variable in that it can be used for both a double c= ontact
hinge, and/or, for containment of a ball bearing, should one wish to use su= ch for
a seismometer hinge/suspension. For a ball bearing use; the little lo= ose tube is
extracted from the assembly and is turned around, and inserted into the com= pression
nut end, where the broad funnel shaped end goes over the slightly extruded = lip of
the new tee variety. By lightly pressing down, the small tube will li= ghtly lock (click)
onto the extruded lip of the inner compression mechanism. I simply pu= t various
ball bearings in the "funnel", and held it while turning it over = to mount on a variety
of test contact surfaces. For your ball bearing use; it can of course= be glued down
with epoxy or whatever, and will likely hold the position quite well. = Similar elbows,
with the same small tube therein can of course be adopted for ball bearings= setups
(or two contact hinges) where other boom configurations may be more desirea= ble.

Use of these tees and elbows isn't a totally alignment free method, as the = internal
oval shaped compression loose tubes is designed to give a variety of angles= to
fit together. You will have to make sure your directional alignment w= ith any boom
is correct for your design. If it isn't, unscrewing the nut will allo= w readjustments,
then tighten the nut/s again. On the sides of these tees and elbows t= here is a
flat area, which with whatever other fixtures you wish to use, can be ancho= red
down on a like flat surface, clamped, adjusted, and then have the nuts tigh= tened;
the alignment/s will be much better this way.

Use of the 3 outlet/inlet compression tees, for a double hinge, or say, a c= rossed
rod hinge/suspension assembly, should entail drilling out the internal bras= s that
obstructs your rod going entirely through the parallel openings for which i= t will be
used; then, installing the internal oval compression ring and/or nut...just= to retain
the straight shape of the rod. With the new tee variety, the compress= ion locking
mechanism is lightly attached to the compression nut itself. If you d= on't drill and
just use the separate ends to install acouple separate rods, they will be a= ssuredly
not aligned...and your double hinge, or crossed rod hinge may suffer somewh= at
from that misalignment effect. Yes, they are alittle work, but alot l= ess than trying
to homebrew your own "T" joints.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:26:19 -0500 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > The correct reference is: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html > All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people ate talking about everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low friction bearing surfaces. I haven't yet gotten my seismometer completed, but here is how I built my hinges. I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of the hinge bearings. I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ball from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface. The lower bearing (in compression) is just the half outer race epoxied to the head of a bolt with the groove facing out and the groove vertical. The matching half is a bullet nosed piece of aluminum with a dimple in the end and the ball in the dimple. The upper bearing is made with the other half of the outer race epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a loop. The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in the inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball. The channel slice has a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race. The groove is horizontal. This combination seems very stable but also self aligning to some extent to allow for sloppy tolerances in the match between the boom and the base. This hinge makes use of the exquisitely precise, smooth and hard surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing. I hope to get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way. I don't have a web page set up yet, either, but if anyone is interested, having trouble understanding my description and emails me with their address, I will take some photos and send them to you. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of ... From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 00:24:41 -0700 Hi John, I tried the same setup in September and early October of this year. Try a smaller ball bearing than the race was made for; that will mean alot less contact friction. A same size ball bearing as the race, means multiple meta= l contacts therein; for both your hinges...and, the different ball bearing/race "sections" will have to be set rather precisely (apart) together; otherwise you get more friction from that (potential offset) stress contact. I used a more brutal ball bearing "disection" method than you used. A big vice, will crack small ball bearing assemblys fairly easily, and in fair alignment with where they contact the vice jaws. Use a cloth, under and over the bearing assembly before applying pressure. Subsequent vice pressure can reduce the 1/2 sections, to 1/4 sections fast. The best ball bearing/s on various mounting surfaces I tried could only get up to 4 hours of free oscillations, for a 2" mass offset, with it setup as a hanging vertical pendulum, or S-G. I found that nearly flat ground, polished glass optical lenses surfaces were better than bearing races for less friction. Take care, Meredith Lamb On 11/5/05, John Popelish wrote: > > ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > The correct reference is: > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html > > > > All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge > bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people ate talking about > everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low friction > bearing surfaces. > > clip..... Hi John,

I tried the same setup in September and early October of this year. T= ry
a smaller ball bearing than the race was made for; that will mean alot less=
contact friction. A same size ball bearing as the race, means multipl= e metal
contacts therein; for both your hinges...and, the different ball bearing/ra= ce
"sections" will have to be set rather precisely (apart) together;= otherwise
you get more friction from that (potential offset) stress contact.

I used a more brutal ball bearing "disection" method than you use= d. A
big vice, will crack small ball bearing assemblys fairly easily, and in
fair alignment with where they contact the vice jaws. Use a cloth, un= der
and over the bearing assembly before applying pressure. Subsequent vice pressure can reduce the 1/2 sections, to 1/4 sections fast.

The best ball bearing/s on various mounting surfaces I tried could only
get up to 4 hours of free oscillations, for a 2" mass offset, with it = setup
as a hanging vertical pendulum, or S-G. I found that nearly flat grou= nd,
polished glass optical lenses surfaces were better than bearing races
for less friction.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

On 11/5/05, John Popelish <jpopelish@r= ica.net> wrote:

ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote:
&nbs= p; > The correct ref= erence is:
>
> <= a href=3D"http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html">http://home.ea= rthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html
>

All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings a= s hinge
bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people ate talking abo= ut
everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low frictio= n
bearing surfaces.

clip.....

Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of ... From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:58:12 EST In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge bearings, > and it finally dawns on me that people are talking about everything except the > surfaces that are made precisely as low friction bearing surfaces. > > I haven't yet gotten my seismometer completed, but here is how I built > my hinges. > > I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a > moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of > the hinge bearings. I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ball > from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface. Hi John, The hinge angle is defined by the contact on the spherical ball and more especially by the centre of curvature of the ball. If you mount the ball on the arm, you will have a major reset up job any time that the arm is dismounted / moved. > The lower bearing (in compression) is just the half outer race epoxied > to the head of a bolt with the groove facing out and the groove > vertical. The matching half is a bullet nosed piece of aluminum with > a dimple in the end and the ball in the dimple. It is much better to mount both balls on the fixed vertical support beam. The vertical axis is then defined by the centres of the balls. This keeps the side to side zero adjustment fairly constant. The ground radius of curvature of the track is not usually much larger than that of the ball. As the arm swings from side to side the ball will tend to ride up the fairly sharp curvature of the track. This will most probably tend to give a strong centring moment to the arm - it may well not swing freely or have a fixed period. > The upper bearing is made with the other half of the outer race > epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a > loop. The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in the > inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball. The channel slice has > a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race. > The groove is horizontal. With one groove horizontal and the other vertical, the ball bearings will be seeing surfaces with dramatically different rates of curvature. This is very likely to effect the balance setting, the freedom to swing and the period. > This combination seems very stable but also self aligning to some extent to > allow for sloppy tolerances in the match between the boom and the base. I would expect it to be extremely stable, but the whole point about a seismometer arm is that it should swing completely freely and NOT be constrained by the curvature of the support! > This hinge makes use of the exquisitely precise, smooth and hard > surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing. I hope to > get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way. I doubt if it will give you the results that you want, for the reasons that I have stated, but do try it out and let us know the results! Have a 'do it now campaign'? You might just 'get away with it' if you used a very much smaller diameter balls in the ground outer bearing track and aligned both tracks horizontally? > I don't have a web page set up yet, either, but if anyone is > interested, having trouble understanding my description and emails me > If these are ordinary bearings and not stainless steel, you will need to put a drop of light oil on the contact point (clock oil?) and make an overlapped paper screen around the joint to prevent the oil from collecting dust. Good Luck! Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes:

All this discussion of usin= g parts from ball bearings as hinge bearings, and it finally dawns on me tha= t people are talking about everything except the surfaces that are made prec= isely as low friction bearing surfaces.

I haven't yet gotten my seismometer completed, but here is how I built=20
my hinges.

I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a=20
moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of=20
the hinge bearings. I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ba= ll=20
from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface.

Hi John,

      The hinge angle is defined by the c= ontact on the spherical ball and more especially by the centre of curvature=20= of the ball. If you mount the ball on the arm, you will have a major reset u= p job any time that the arm is dismounted / moved.

The lower bearing (in compr= ession) is just the half outer race epoxied=20
to the head of a bolt with the groove facing out and the groove=20
vertical. The matching half is a bullet nosed piece of aluminum with=20
a dimple in the end and the ball in the dimple.

        It is much better to= mount both balls on the fixed vertical support beam. The vertical axis is t= hen defined by the centres of the balls. This keeps the side to side zero ad= justment fairly constant.

   The ground radius of curvature of the track is not us= ually much larger than that of the ball. As the arm swings from side to side= the ball will tend to ride up the fairly sharp curvature of the track. This= will most probably tend to give a strong centring moment to the arm - it ma= y well not swing freely or have a fixed period.

The upper bearing is made w= ith the other half of the outer race=20
epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a=20
loop. The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in t= he=20
inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball. The channel slice=20= has=20
a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race.=20
The groove is horizontal.

      With one groove horizontal and t= he other vertical, the ball bearings will be seeing surfaces with dramatical= ly different rates of curvature. This is very likely to effect the balance s= etting, the freedom to swing and the period.

This combination seems very= stable but also self aligning to some extent to allow for sloppy tolerances= in the match between the boom and the base.

      I would expect it to be extremel= y stable, but the whole point about a seismometer arm is that it should swin= g completely freely and NOT be constrained by the curvature of the support!=20

This hinge makes use of the= exquisitely precise, smooth and hard=20
surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing. I hope to= =20
get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way= ..

      I doubt if it will give you the=20= results that you want, for the reasons that I have stated, but do try it=20= out and let us know the results! Have a 'do it now campaign'?

   You might just 'get away with it' if you used a ve= ry much smaller diameter balls in the ground outer bearing track and aligned= both tracks horizontally?

I don't have a web page=20= set up yet, either, but if anyone is=20
interested, having trouble understanding my description and emails me=20
with their address, I will take some photos and send them to you.

      If these are ordinary bearings and=20= not stainless steel, you will need to put a drop of light oil on the contact= point (clock oil?) and make an overlapped paper screen around the joint to=20= prevent the oil from collecting dust.

      Good Luck!

      Chris Chapman Subject: balls From: Gordon Couger gcouger@.......... Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:51:50 -0600 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > >> All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge >> bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people are talking about >> everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low friction >> bearing surfaces. >> >> I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a >> moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of >> the hinge bearings. I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ball >> from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface. > If these are ordinary bearings and not stainless steel, you will > need to put a drop of light oil on the contact point (clock oil?) and > make an overlapped paper screen around the joint to prevent the oil from > collecting dust. > Chris Chapman Hi Chris There are several materials that I would consider if I were using a ball bearing for a pivot. Ultra High Density Polyethylene for one bearing surface and a stainless steel, sapphire or ruby ball for bearing. Using this chart on Coefficient for Static Friction http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-frictioncoefficient.htm a sapphire of tungsten carbide ball on a polyethylene seat look petty good. The UHDPET would need to be pretty thin and backed by a rigid surface so the ball didn't creep into it and make a round socket that increased the friction. To over come the creep problem using a tungsten carbide tool insert with a screw hole in it as a socket http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/Media/glossary_c/carbide.jpg and a sapphire ball may make a better bearing but the sharp edge of the hole in the tungsten carbide tool much be lapped smooth. Gordon Couger Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: balls From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:53:47 EST In a message dated 06/11/05, gcouger@.......... writes: > There are several materials that I would consider if I were using a ball > bearing for a pivot. Ultra High Density Polyethylene for one bearing > surface and a stainless steel, sapphire or ruby ball for bearing. > > Using this chart on Coefficient for Static Friction > http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-frictioncoefficient.htm a sapphire or > tungsten carbide ball on a polyethylene seat look petty good. Hi Gordon, Thanks for the interesting table. We don't need a very high frictional coefficient, but we do need the surfaces to be non welding, non reactive, very hard and to be able to take quite a high load elastically. For instance, if you use ordinary unlubricated ball bearings, you eventually end up with a 'stuck' suspension and a very small pile of rust. > The UHDPET would need to be pretty thin and backed by a rigid surface so > the ball didn't creep into it and make a round socket that increased the > friction. To over come the creep problem using a tungsten carbide tool > insert with a screw hole in it as a socket > http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/Media/glossary_c/carbide.jpg and a sapphire > ball may make a better bearing but the sharp edge of the hole in the > tungsten carbide tool much be lapped smooth. This is a problem that 'you don't need to have'! You look for carbide triangular turning inserts without a central hole, with sides of about 0.3". These will polish up nicely with some diamond paste and cost maybe $3. Stainless steel ball bearings seem to work very well. You can buy just the balls - you don't need to buy a bearing! Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 06/11/05, gcouger@.......... writes:

There are several materials= that I would consider if I were using a ball=20
bearing for a pivot. Ultra High Density Polyethylene for one bearing=20
surface and a stainless steel, sapphire or ruby ball for bearing.

Using this chart on Coefficient for Static Friction=20
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-frictioncoefficient.htm a sapphire=20= or=20
tungsten carbide ball on a polyethylene seat look petty good.

Hi Gordon,

      Thanks for the interesting table. W= e don't need a very high frictional coefficient, but we do need the surfaces= to be non welding, non reactive, very hard and to be able to take quite a h= igh load elastically. For instance, if you use ordinary unlubricated ball be= arings, you eventually end up with a 'stuck' suspension and a very small pil= e of rust.

The UHDPET would need to be= pretty thin and backed by a rigid surface so=20
the ball didn't creep into it and make a round socket that increased the= =20
friction. To over come the creep problem using a tungsten carbide tool=20
insert with a screw hole in it as a socket=20
http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/Media/glossary_c/carbide.jpg and a sapphire=20
ball may make a better bearing but the sharp edge of the hole in the=20
tungsten carbide tool much be lapped smooth.

      This is a problem that 'you don't n= eed to have'! You look for carbide triangular turning inserts without a cent= ral hole, with sides of about 0.3". These will polish up nicely with some di= amond paste and cost maybe $3.=20

      Stainless steel ball bearings seem=20= to work very well. You can buy just the balls - you don't need to buy a bear= ing!

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:11:23 -0500 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: (snip) >>The upper bearing is made with the other half of the outer race >>epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a >>loop. The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in the >>inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball. The channel slice has >>a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race. >>The groove is horizontal. > > > With one groove horizontal and the other vertical, the ball bearings > will be seeing surfaces with dramatically different rates of curvature. This is > very likely to effect the balance setting, the freedom to swing and the > period. Yes, I agree. Both groves should be horizontal so the balls roll along the grove, instead of scuffing across it. (snip) >>This hinge makes use of the exquisitely precise, smooth and hard >>surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing. I hope to >>get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way. > > > I doubt if it will give you the results that you want, for the reasons > that I have stated, but do try it out and let us know the results! Have a 'do > it now campaign'? Easier said than done, but I will let you know the result of this experiment as soon as it happens. > You might just 'get away with it' if you used a very much smaller > diameter balls in the ground outer bearing track and aligned both tracks horizontally? The balls are about 1/16th inch diameter, now. > If these are ordinary bearings and not stainless steel, you will need > to put a drop of light oil on the contact point (clock oil?) and make an > overlapped paper screen around the joint to prevent the oil from collecting dust. The balls roll such a small part of a degree for the full +- 1/4 inch of boom end movement that I will probably just sit them in a blob of grease. This will keep dust out of the contact points. It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot less than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired damping. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of ... From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 15:32:52 EST In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > The balls are about 1/16th inch diameter, now. > Hi John, If you buy BIC pens, they have a 1 mm dia (0.0394") carbide ball already fitted in a nice cone shaped brass holder, the shank tube 2.2mm dia x 10.9 mm long. You remove the plastic case and the ink tube and clean them with methylated spirits. I use 5 mm dia stainless steel bearings on a solid triangular tungsten carbide turning tool bit. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes:

The balls are about 1/16th=20= inch diameter, now.

Hi John,

      If you buy BIC pens, they have a 1=20= mm dia (0.0394") carbide ball already fitted in a nice cone shaped brass hol= der, the shank tube 2.2mm dia x 10.9 mm long. You remove the plastic case an= d the ink tube and clean them with methylated spirits.

      I use 5 mm dia stainless steel bear= ings on a solid triangular tungsten carbide turning tool bit.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:32:13 -0800 John hit upon the very question I have had since the beginning of this discussion. I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I would think other considerations are more important such as the stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the pendulum. On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by which the frame moves, moving the pivot point, leaving the bob weight stationary (on a instantaneous basis). Insufficient side friction, and this goes badly awry. Which is why I always perk up when the discussions hinges (pun intended) around the Rollamite, crossed leaf hinges, etc. These have very large stability (are rigid) against side forces. I was especially impressed with the crossed wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about all those flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some of them. I've been too lazy to project the consequences into the seismometer suspensions. The question is that if the point of rotation travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or un-stability (longer period) swings, i.e., what is the longest period (or largest swing) possible before it might go unstable? Rollamites are probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, but the crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I thought that was an interesting suspension. The downside of that suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge is relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal axis is another hinge with a different period potentially making the seismometer sensitive to another axis (if using some versions of coil/magnet motion sensors.) Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are different. I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this extends to the application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type bearing, too. Just some idle musings. Regards, Charles Patton John Popelish wrote: > ..... It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot > less than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired > damping. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 11:56:53 -0500 Charles R. Patton wrote: > John hit upon the very question I have had since the beginning of this > discussion. I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to > the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which > multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the > level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I > would think other considerations are more important such as the > stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read > big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge > point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the > pendulum. That's the way it looks to me, as long as the friction of the hinge is proportional to velocity, not position (fluid friction, not lumpiness of the force versus position). > On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by > which the frame moves, moving the pivot point, leaving the bob weight > stationary (on a instantaneous basis). Insufficient side friction, and > this goes badly awry. A good reason to minimize boom mass, at least on the hinge end. And it makes those units with huge, massive basses light up question marks in my brain. Why do they make the moving part of the device so massive? > Which is why I always perk up when the > discussions hinges (pun intended) around the Rollamite, crossed leaf > hinges, etc. These have very large stability (are rigid) against side > forces. I was especially impressed with the crossed wire discussion a > few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about all those > flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation > point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some > of them. I've been too lazy to project the consequences into the > seismometer suspensions. The question is that if the point of rotation > travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or > un-stability (longer period) swings, i.e., what is the longest period > (or largest swing) possible before it might go unstable? Rollamites are > probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, Yes, that dreaded lumpiness. > but the > crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I > thought that was an interesting suspension. The downside of that > suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge > is relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal > axis is another hinge with a different period potentially making the > seismometer sensitive to another axis (if using some versions of > coil/magnet motion sensors.) The biggest weakness of the ball and half race hinge I mentioned is that the ball might slide along the race instead of rolling, changing the side tilt of the hinge line, and so, shift the stable position of the mass. Here in Virginia, I doubt that it will ever experience a large enough vibration to cause that, but in California, it probably isn't stable enough. > Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it > would seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've > heard that generally sliding surface bearings are better if the > materials are different. Iron and gold are known for not sticking together. > I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this > extends to the application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type > bearing, too. > > Just some idle musings. Regards, > Charles Patton Thanks for those. > > > John Popelish wrote: > >> ..... It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot >> less than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired >> damping. >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: "Wayne" wandc@....... Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:57:25 -0800 Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would > seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that > generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are > different. Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible, but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:53:55 EST In a message dated 07/11/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to > the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which > multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the > level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I > would think other considerations are more important such as the > stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read > big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge > point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the > pendulum. Hi Charles, Yes and no. Some hard measurements to suppliment design decisions and investigate problems are very welcome. One factor which limits very long period seismometer suspensions is non elastic / anelastic effects. No one is surprised to be able to bend a strip of say 1/2" x 1/16" mild steel. If you try the same with a strip of hardened high carbon steel, it flexes, but then springs back when the bending force is released - very nearly, but not quite 100%. And it does so in tiny jumps which can be detected using a piezo crystal in good contact with the metal - bending mild steel is not a 'smooth' operation - it is the sum of millions of tiny steps. On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by > which the frame moves, moving the pivot point, leaving the bob weight > stationary (on a instantaneous basis). Insufficient side friction, and this goes > badly awry. Which is why I always perk up when the discussions hinges (pun > Rigidity is OK. Damping is OK. If you get ANY friction, you are likely in trouble. These have very large stability (are rigid) against side forces. I was especially > impressed with the crossed wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that > always bothered me about all those flexible hinge types is discerning the > actually hinge rotation point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work > figuring out some of them. The question is that if the point of rotation > travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or un-stability > See also Re: Crossed wire suspensions - more analysis Date: 25/10/05 To PSN Long period swing problems may be related to the design of the suspension, the stability and levelling of the apparatus, or to anelastic behavoir of the hinge materials. The Australian Folded Pendulums were reported working out to 90 sec. using 7 foils. It is more usual these days to use a force balance technique to the extend the period electronically. A factor of x10 should be relatively easy to achieve. Rollamites are > probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, but the > crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I thought that > was an interesting suspension. The downside of that suspension would seem to > be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge is relatively rigid in the > plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal axis is another hinge with a different > period potentially You can design a shield making the system virtually immune to dust. You need to mechanically design your suspension system to cope with fairly strong motions and to return to it's original setting after a disturbance. If you are in a region subject to severe quakes, it is usual to have a 'strong motion' sensor. No seismometer is completely indestructable. > Oh yes, one other point about points on surfaces, it would seem to me that > mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that generally sliding > surface bearings are better if the materials are different I'm not a > tribologist, but I'm sure this extends to the application of the ball point rolling on > Not particularly, so far as I know as applied to seismometers. If you use say bare steel, you can get contact welding by compressing / rubbing the surfaces together. You may also get stress / frictional activation of a surface leading to oxidation / corrosion. Engine and other oils contain 'extreme pressure additives'. These may be organic phosphorous compounds and any exposed metal surface immediatly reacts giving it a protective surface layer just atoms thick. This normally prevents welding. There are some particular lubricated plain bearing combinations, like bronze on steel, which give a very long life, but this is not applicable to seismometers. Bronze is not a very hard alloy, but the surface can work harden in the extreme. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 07/11/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes:

I love the discussion and t= he simple tests for getting to=20
the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which=20
multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the=20
level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I=20
would think other considerations are more important such as the=20
stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read=20
big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge= =20
point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the=20
pendulum.

Hi Charles,

      Yes and no. Some hard measurements=20= to suppliment design decisions and investigate problems are very welcome.=20
      One factor which limits very long p= eriod seismometer suspensions is non elastic / anelastic effects. No one is=20= surprised to be able to bend a strip of say 1/2" x 1/16" mild steel. If you=20= try the same with a strip of hardened high carbon steel, it flexes, but then= springs back when the bending force is released - very nearly, but not quit= e 100%. And it does so in tiny jumps which can be detected using a piezo cry= stal in good contact with the metal - bending mild steel is not a 'smooth' o= peration - it is the sum of millions of tiny steps.

On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by=20
which the frame moves, movi= ng the pivot point, leaving the bob weight stationary (on a instantaneous ba= sis). Insufficient side friction, and this goes badly awry. Which is why I a= lways perk up when the discussions hinges (pun intended) around the Rollamit= e, crossed leaf hinges, etc.

      Rigidity is OK. Damping is OK. If y= ou get ANY friction, you are likely in trouble.

These have very large stability (are rigid) against side forces. I was e= specially=20
impressed with the crossed=20= wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about all=20= those flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation point/t= ragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some of them. Th= e question is that if the point of rotation travels, then does it do so in s= uch a way to lead to stability or un-stability swings, i.e., what is the lon= gest period possible before it might go unstable?

      See also Re: Crossed wire suspensio= ns - more analysis Date: 25/10/05 To PSN=20

      Long period swing problems may be r= elated to the design of the suspension, the stability and levelling of the a= pparatus, or to anelastic behavoir of the hinge materials. The Australian Fo= lded Pendulums were reported working out to 90 sec. using 7 foils. It is mor= e usual these days to use a force balance technique to the extend the period= electronically. A factor of x10 should be relatively easy to achieve.

Rollamites are=20
probably subject to another= problem which is dust collection, but the crossed wire 'Rollamite" version=20= would be almost immune, again why I thought that was an interesting suspensi= on. The downside of that suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstabil= ity, i.e., the hinge is relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but t= he orthogonal axis is another hinge with a different period potentially &nbs= p;making the seismometer sensitive to another axis

      You can design a shield making the=20= system virtually immune to dust.=20

      You need to mechanically design you= r suspension system to cope with fairly strong motions and to return to it's= original setting after a disturbance. If you are in a region subject to sev= ere quakes, it is usual to have a 'strong motion' sensor. No seismometer is=20= completely indestructable.=20

Oh yes, one other point abo= ut points on surfaces, it would seem to me that mixing material is a good id= ea. I belive I've heard that generally sliding surface bearings are better i= f the materials are different I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this= extends to the application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type bea= ring, too.

    Not particularly, so far as I know as applied t= o seismometers. If you use say bare steel, you can get contact welding by co= mpressing / rubbing the surfaces together. You may also get stress / frictio= nal activation of a surface leading to oxidation / corrosion. Engine and oth= er oils contain 'extreme pressure additives'. These may be organic phosphoro= us compounds and any exposed metal surface immediatly reacts giving it a pro= tective surface layer just atoms thick. This normally prevents welding.
      There are some particular lubricate= d plain bearing combinations, like bronze on steel, which give a very long l= ife, but this is not applicable to seismometers. Bronze is not a very hard a= lloy, but the surface can work harden in the extreme.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Stress and Press From: "KATHRYN ROBERTS" KROBERTS23@............... Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:55:55 -0500 Hi. What is the optimal length for the hinge? The ones i've seen on this list all have very short hinges. Would there be a benfit to using perhaps a one centimeter gap between the frame and the boom or pendulum? The upper and lower hinges can both be in tension, or both in compression or one of each. i don't thing longer/wider gapped hinges will work in compression. Come to think of it, i haven't won any prizes for thinking. geofff<>< ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles R. Patton" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:32 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > John hit upon the very question I have had since the beginning of this > discussion. I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to the > low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which multi-hour > swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the level you'll use > for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I would think other > considerations are more important such as the stability and robustness of > the hinge against large side forces (read big quake such as those in > California are prone to) displacing the hinge point, changing the > geometry, and hence the functionality of the pendulum. On a pure geometry > basis, the hinge point is the means by which the frame moves, moving the > pivot point, leaving the bob weight stationary (on a instantaneous basis). > Insufficient side friction, and this goes badly awry. Which is why I > always perk up when the discussions hinges (pun intended) around the > Rollamite, crossed leaf hinges, etc. These have very large stability (are > rigid) against side forces. I was especially impressed with the crossed > wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about > all those flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation > point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some > of them. I've been too lazy to project the consequences into the > seismometer suspensions. The question is that if the point of rotation > travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or > un-stability (longer period) swings, i.e., what is the longest period (or > largest swing) possible before it might go unstable? Rollamites are > probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, but the > crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I > thought that was an interesting suspension. The downside of that > suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge is > relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal axis is > another hinge with a different period potentially making the seismometer > sensitive to another axis (if using some versions of coil/magnet motion > sensors.) > Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would > seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that > generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are > different. I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this extends to the > application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type bearing, too. > > Just some idle musings. Regards, > Charles Patton > > > > John Popelish wrote: > >> ..... It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot less >> than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired damping. >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: back on the air From: Ian Smith ian@........... Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:11:09 +0000 I guess it could be said that I'm "back on the air" having moved house 8000 miles, lost my local friendly active volcano and had to change from a geophone to a Lehman long period device. I have a realtime plot of the Lehman - http://www.iasmith.com/realtime.htm which updates automatically every minute. I do seem to get quite a lot of micro-seisms, despite the natural period of the sensor being 16 seconds and the signal band pass filtered. I'm only about 8 miles from the edge of the North Sea which may account for it. It's located on a concrete pad in the back garden (yard). The hinge (a popular topic just now!) is a flat circular plate on the arm and 2 ball bearings on the fixed part. I use magnetic damping given the temperatures dips in winter here in Scotland. The pages will download very slowly. I'm in the middle of the countryside where there is no broadband. I had to go find 50 neighbours (tricky in the countryside!), get a grant from the local government, have satellite broadband installed and wirelessly distribute it. All very time consuming... The plus side of countryside is that there is very little environmental interference, just the kids occasionally demonstrating what happens when you jump up and down on the enclosure. Once I get my psn headers fixed up for my new location I'll be able to start submitting again. I haven't completely updated the website either, so some of the time it thinks it's still in Hawai'i. Ian Smith __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Food for thought; round glass objects on flat glass, as seismometer hinges. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:24:24 -0700 Hi all, Haven't yet tried such; but it is obvious that there are various size glass round balls around that could (?) be tried as a dual spaced pivot part of a seismo hinge. The contact surfaces for such could also be a flat glass, or of course, a variety of other materials. Probably for weight pressure limitations they may best work for S-G's (vertical hanging mass pendulums), with lighter overall boom/mass weights. "Minature glass marbles" (~2-3mm, 75-125 thousandth inch diameter estimate)= , on E-Bay, let alone a variety of the other larger glass diameter marble sizes. Glass beads with a hole through them, and jewelry balls of a variety of colors in earrings; including some false pearl, which was actually a similar colored glass bead= s I found. It may not be as farfetched as it sounds, as from examining some of my wife= s items with a jewelers loupe, the surfaces in most cases, seemed more uniform consistent without near as many very small pits/marks/grooves as similar size metal ball bearings. Of course, the diameters will likely vary more with glass than metal, and i= s likely to not be as strictly or consistently as round in shape. Earlier table top/edge tests with various glass surfaces didn't show any visual wear, for the various ~2 pound boom/mass configurations I've tried in the past. Maybe the next time I go shopping with her, I'am be alittle too enthusiasti= c to go visit the (cheap) jewelry racks; which will likely bring some initial bewildered disbelief from her...ha. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

Haven't yet tried such; but it is obvious that there are various size glass= round balls
around that could (?) be tried as a dual spaced pivot part of a seismo hing= e. The
contact surfaces for such could also be a flat glass, or of course, a varie= ty of other
materials. Probably for weight pressure limitations they may best wor= k for S-G's
(vertical hanging mass pendulums), with lighter overall boom/mass weights.<= br>
"Minature glass marbles" (~2-3mm, 75-125 thousandth inch diameter= estimate), on
E-Bay, let alone a variety of the other larger glass diameter marble sizes.= Glass
beads with a hole through them, and jewelry balls of a variety of colors in= earrings;
including some false pearl, which was actually a similar colored glass bead= s I found.

It may not be as farfetched as it sounds, as from examining some of my wife= s items
with a jewelers loupe, the surfaces in most cases, seemed more uniform cons= istent
without near as many very small pits/marks/grooves as similar size metal b= all bearings.
Of course, the diameters will likely vary more with glass than metal, and i= s likely to not
be as strictly or consistently as round in shape. Earlier table top/e= dge tests with various
glass surfaces didn't show any visual wear, for the various ~2 pound boom/m= ass
configurations I've tried in the past.

Maybe the next time I go shopping with her, I'am be alittle too enthusiasti= c to go visit
the (cheap) jewelry racks; which will likely bring some initial bewildered = disbelief
from her...ha.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

Subject: Re: Food for thought; round glass objects on flat glass, as seismometer From: Dave Youden dyouden@............. Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:34:51 -0500 Meredith, I suggest that you try sapphire or ruby balls from Small Parts Inc ( www.smallparts.com) For a couple of bucks apiece you can get grade 25 balls that are highly polished and round to within .000025". These are used commercially as indicator tips and probes for coordinate measuring machines. They have excellent physical properties as well. Dave... meredith lamb wrote: > Hi all, > > Haven't yet tried such; but it is obvious that there are various size > glass round balls > around that could (?) be tried as a dual spaced pivot part of a seismo > hinge. The > contact surfaces for such could also be a flat glass, or of course, a > variety of other > materials. Probably for weight pressure limitations they may best > work for S-G's > (vertical hanging mass pendulums), with lighter overall boom/mass weights. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: tornados From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:01:17 -0600 Has anyway recorded any "strange"/"distinct" effects when tornadoes came close to their seismic detectors? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornados From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:47:00 EST In a message dated 10/11/05, dickthomas01@............. writes: > Has anyway recorded any "strange"/"distinct" effects when tornadoes came > close to their seismic detectors? Hi Tom, I have seen reports of seismic signals, but how are you defining 'strange' and 'distinct'? Extreme weather conditions, passing fronts, wave systems, rotors and tornadoes can all be expected to be capable of producing direct seismic signals. However, since you use a vertical sensor without a hermetic case, it will also sense the changes in air density which these systems generate. This is a well documented source of atmospheric 'noise' in vertical instruments. Put the sensor in a hermetic chamber and you reduce the noise by up to x100. Regards, Chris In a message=20= dated 10/11/05, dickthomas01@............. writes:

Has anyway recorded any "st= range"/"distinct" effects when tornadoes came=20
close to their seismic detectors?

Hi Tom,

      I have seen reports of seismic sign= als, but how are you defining 'strange' and 'distinct'?
      Extreme weather conditions, passing= fronts, wave systems, rotors and tornadoes can all be expected to be capabl= e of producing direct seismic signals.
      However, since you use a vertical s= ensor without a hermetic case, it will also sense the changes in air density= which these systems generate. This is a well documented source of atmospher= ic 'noise' in vertical instruments. Put the sensor in a hermetic chamber and= you reduce the noise by up to x100.=20

      Regards,

      Chris

       Subject: Re: tornados From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:16:16 -0600 There are things that bother me about what I see. You have screen displays of the data. The difference between the Lehmans and the vertical I might excuse as differences in sensitivity -- sensitivity of the electronic pickup as well as the effect of the differences in the period for the Lehmans and the vertical. Since I used your suggestions on the Leymans, I could also excuse the differences between Lehmans and the vertical to be due to greater shielding. There is increased amplitude from the background "noise" on all three detectors that corelates to the same time on each detector and very close to the chronological time that areas were hit. When this storm came "ashore" after crossing the Ohio River for the last time in what I believe was in the 6:53 UTC minute it would have started up hill. At the time I "think" it hit Ellis Park - late in the 6:57 minute - it had to cross a raised highway (about 40 ft) to reach the horse park. About mid 7:07 minute it hits the trailer court and is slightly deflected from its NE path to a ENE by the elevated by-pass (highway). The spike early in the 7:11 minute might be the breaking of the highland in the immediate path of the tornado that runs N-S about 1/4 mile east of the trailer park. You know I have trouble with power line spikes. There are none on the records of any of the detectors for this time frame -- well over an hour. As I mentioned earlier, record was "quiet" for the hour previous to the tornado. There is one other thing missing from the displays. That is lightning strikes. I frequently record close lightning strikes with these detectors. I know what they look like. There were at least four very close strikes in my immediate area and eye-witnesses discribe the clouds being filled with lightning just ahead of the tornado. Why don't I see some? Most of the "busy" activity on the seismograms seems to be late in the life of the tornado as it pulls east of me.Dr. Herrmann at St. Louis was wondering about frequencies above 5 hz -- things his seimographs would filter out. Maybe the vertical is susceptible to this frequency range. I was also considering the possibiliity (difference between early and late in the travel of this tornado) that might be caused by some form of phase shift like what a train whistle does as it passes. It was traveling unusually fast for a tornado. This is why I used the words "strange" / "distinct" recordings, maybe the word unique might be more correct. So, do I make sense?? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornados From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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cDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtSZWdhcmRzLCANCjxCUj48QlI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Q2hyaXMgDQo8QlI+PEJSPiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOzwvRk9OVD4gPC9GT05UPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= Subject: Re: tornados From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:49:07 -0600 The event is the tornado that passed within 4 miles of my house in = Evansville, Indiana on Nov. 6 in which at least 22 fatalities are = documental. The tornado was an upper F3.
The event is the tornado that passed within 4 miles = of my=20 house in Evansville, Indiana on Nov. 6 in which at least 22 fatalities = are=20 documental. The tornado was an upper F3.

      =20
Subject: RE: tornados From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:30:49 -0500 Thomas, This might be a good starting point to get some more info: http://www.admin.mtu.edu/urel/PressReleases/97releases/tornado.html Regards, -Tim- -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Thomas Dick Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:49 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: tornados The event is the tornado that passed within 4 miles of my house in Evansville, Indiana on Nov. 6 in which at least 22 fatalities are documental. The tornado was an upper F3.

Thomas,

This might be a good starting point = to get some more info:

http://www.admin.mtu.edu/urel/PressReleases/97releases/tornado.html

Regards,

-Tim-

-----Original = Message-----
From: = psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Thomas Dick
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:49 = PM
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: = tornados

The event is the tornado that passed within 4 = miles of my house in Evansville, Indiana on Nov. 6 in which at least 22 fatalities = are documental. The tornado was an upper F3.



Subject: '06 Conference From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" lehmancj@........... Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:45:41 -0500 Seismic Friends-- Recently the Seismology Society of America listed details of their = San Francisco 100th Anniversary Earthquake Conference planned for April = 18-22 '06 in San Francisco. www.seismosoc.org=20 There is plenty of everything for anybody active in seismic science, = professional or amateur. 25 Field Trips, and 40 technical sessions. Unfortunately the registration is steep, but hey, only once in 100 = years these special moments come along. = Jim Lehman
         =20 Seismic Friends--

      Recently the = Seismology Society of America listed details of their San Francisco = 100th=20 Anniversary Earthquake Conference planned for April 18-22 '06 in San=20 Francisco.   www.seismosoc.org=20

    There is plenty of everything = for=20 anybody active in seismic science, professional or amateur. 25 = Field=20 Trips, and 40 technical sessions.

     Unfortunately the = registration is=20 steep, but hey, only once in 100 years these special moments come=20 along.

          =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Jim Lehman
Subject: Re: '06 Conference From: piet.beenders@......... Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:03:31 +0100 That is to costly for amateurs like me, on the other hand, i could suggest to be a student ... Piet Beenders __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: '06 Conference From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:10:18 -0800 Where can one find the costs? It's not listed on the website. -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of piet.beenders@......... Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 7:04 AM To: psn-l@............... psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: '06 Conference That is to costly for amateurs like me, on the other hand, i could suggest to be a student ... Piet Beenders __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: '06 Conference From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:11:33 -0800 Found it. -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of piet.beenders@......... Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 7:04 AM To: psn-l@............... psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: '06 Conference That is to costly for amateurs like me, on the other hand, i could suggest to be a student ... Piet Beenders __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: '06 Conference Costs From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:14:00 EST In a message dated 10/11/05, system98765@............. writes: > Where can one find the costs? It's not listed on the website. Go the the Website, click on Meetings and then Registration 18-22 April 2006 San Francisco http://www.1906eqconf.org/fullconfReg.htm Full members $480, non members $550, retirees & students $240, authors get $240 credit off their $480. Daily, Student, Teacher rates available Living as I do on the other side of the world, would make just getting there quite costly for me. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 10/11/05, system98765@............. writes:

Where can one find the cost= s? It's not listed on the website.

      Go the the Website, click on Meetin= gs and then Registration
      18-22 April 2006 San Francisco
      http://www.1906eqconf.org/fullconfR= eg.htm
      Full members $480, non members $550= , retirees & students $240, authors get $240 credit off their $480.
      Daily, Student, Teacher rates avail= able
      Living as I do on the other side of= the world, would make just getting there quite costly for me.
      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Re: '06 Conference From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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SVY+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "JAMES C. ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:26:59 -0800 I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away. These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible, > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Jack Ivey" ivey@.......... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:31:05 -0500 I'll take one (if there's any left...). Thanks, Jack Ivey -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for=20 which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away.=20 These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay=20 listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or=20 both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will=20 inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay=20 shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would=20 >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that=20 >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are=20 >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with=20 > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of=20 > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used=20 > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the=20 > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one=20 > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in=20 > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible,=20 > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business=20 > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the=20 > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Jack Ivey" ivey@.......... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:32:42 -0500 Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. Thanks anyway. Jack -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for=20 which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away.=20 These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay=20 listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or=20 both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will=20 inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay=20 shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would=20 >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that=20 >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are=20 >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with=20 > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of=20 > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used=20 > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the=20 > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one=20 > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in=20 > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible,=20 > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business=20 > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the=20 > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:18:56 -0800 Jack, I would like one. Kareem -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Jack Ivey Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:33 AM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. Thanks anyway. Jack -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away. These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible, > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: FRANK COOPER fxc@........... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:15:36 -0800 (PST) Hi James, I would like one if there is one left. Thanks, Frank --- "JAMES C. ALLEN" wrote: > I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech > Helicorder's model RV-301B, for > which I am going to keep one and am willing to give > the other two away. > These units will require repair. However, if you > want one go to the EBay > listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday > select either one or > both of the two on the right side of your screen and > let me know. I will > inform the company to release it (them) to you. You > just have to pay > shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 > per unit. > James Allen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > > > > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > > > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about > points on surfaces, it would > >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. > I belive I've heard that > >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if > the materials are > >> different. > > > > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to > choosing materials with > > low sliding friction, a second bearing material > was often used for ease of > > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same > bearing material were used > > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear > away at pretty much the > > same rate. With differing materials having > different wear rates, only one > > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. > This could be useful in > > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is > more readily accesible, > > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this > wear/replacement business > > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, > however. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > > message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for > more information. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): > unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "JAMES C. ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:18:44 -0800 Sorry Kareem, I just arranged for the last one to be shipped to Frank Cooper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" To: Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 5:18 PM Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > Jack, I would like one. > > Kareem > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On > Behalf Of Jack Ivey > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:33 AM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. > > Thanks anyway. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, > for > which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away. > These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay > listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or > both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will > inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay > shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. > James Allen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> >> Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson >> >> >>> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it > would >>> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard > that >>> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >>> different. >> >> >> Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials > with >> low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for > ease of >> subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were > used >> for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much > the >> same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only > one >> half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be > useful in >> those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily > accesible, >> but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement > business >> has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the >> message (first line only): unsubscribe See >> http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:04:22 -0800 bummer! Hopefully, you'll get your hands on more of these items in the future. -----Original Message----- From: JAMES C. ALLEN [mailto:jcallen1@............ Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 8:19 PM To: system98765@............. Cc: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B Sorry Kareem, I just arranged for the last one to be shipped to Frank Cooper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" To: Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 5:18 PM Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > Jack, I would like one. > > Kareem > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. > [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On > Behalf Of Jack Ivey > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:33 AM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. > > Thanks anyway. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. > [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model > RV-301B, for which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the > other two away. > These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the > EBay listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select > either one or both of the two on the right side of your screen and let > me know. I will inform the company to release it (them) to you. You > just have to pay shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. > James Allen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> >> Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson >> >> >>> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it > would >>> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard > that >>> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >>> different. >> >> >> Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials > with >> low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for > ease of >> subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were > used >> for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much > the >> same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, >> only > one >> half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be > useful in >> those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily > accesible, >> but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement > business >> has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body >> of > the >> message (first line only): unsubscribe See >> http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Amateur Scientist CD From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:26:54 -0500 Hi All, Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. Thanks, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Amateur Scientist CD From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 07:33:34 -0700 Angel - I have the CD set - I will have to look up the article for you. Cheers Bob Hancock -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Angel Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 07:27 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Amateur Scientist CD Hi All, Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. Thanks, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:52:25 EST Hi Angel, I have the CD, but you ought to take a look as well at _http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm_ (http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm) Cheers, Bob McClure
Hi Angel,

I have the CD, but you ought to take a look as well at

http://www.belljar.net/microbar= ..htm

Cheers,

Bob McClure
Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 12:48:06 EST In a message dated 07/11/05, wandc@....... writes: > Hi Wayne, > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with > > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of > > subsequent maintenance. Don't know if this wear/replacement business > > Sliding friction in a bearing and rolling friction are two very different situations. Sliding, or rolling on a compliant / rubbery type surface both inevitably involve energy loss. We try hard to avoid this. For a seismometer suspension, you need an extremely low energy loss hinge action. Even foils flexing in a cross hinge involve some loss. The rolling wire / foil type does appear capable of giving lower losses. For a rolling contact type (ball on a flat or crossed cylinder) we need two surfaces which are hard, strong, don't tend to weld or corrode and remain near perfectly elastic at the contact point, which is quite highly stressed. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 07/11/05, wandc@....... writes:

Subject: Re: low friction h= inge discusson

Hi Wayne,

> Regarding this, I had=20= heard that in addition to choosing materials with=20
> low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for=20= ease of=20
> subsequent maintenance. Don't know if this wear/replacement busines= s=20
> has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however.

      Sliding friction in a bearing and r= olling friction are two very different situations.
Sliding, or rolling on a compliant / rubbery type surface both inevitabl= y involve energy loss. We try hard to avoid this.=20

      For a seismometer suspension, you n= eed an extremely low energy loss hinge action. Even foils flexing in a cross= hinge involve some loss. The rolling wire / foil type does appear capable o= f giving lower losses. For a rolling contact type (ball on a flat or crossed= cylinder) we need two surfaces which are hard, strong, don't tend to weld o= r corrode and remain near perfectly elastic at the contact point, which is q= uite highly stressed.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: ebay auction From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:58:52 -0500 Hi gang, WWII Era USGS/ARMY? Seismometer Seismograph XLNT Works! Item number: 6226195159 ends Nov 22 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:07:52 -0500 Angel, I have the article but am reluctant to post it here. That might cause copyright problems for Larry's site. If you will send me your email addr., I will send the article. Bob Barns Angel wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist > CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a > microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think > that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was > called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my > subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur > Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting > rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. > > Thanks, > > Angel > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________ NOD32 1.1284 (20051111) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: "James Hannon" jmhannon@......... Date: Mon, 14 Nov 105 10:15:03 CST You might also want to look at http://geology.heroy.smu.edu/~hayward/ and http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm If you haven't already. Jim Hannon ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: BOB BARNS Reply-To: psn-l@.............. Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:07:52 -0500 >Angel, > I have the article but am reluctant to post it here. That might >cause copyright problems for Larry's site. > If you will send me your email addr., I will send the article. >Bob Barns > > > >Angel wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist >> CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a >> microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think >> that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was >> called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my >> subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur >> Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting >> rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Angel >> -- Jim Hannon http://www.fmtcs.com/web/jmhannon/ 42,11.90N,91,39.26W WB0TXL -- __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: Amateur Scientist CD From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:21:57 -0500 Hello BOB, I understand that reluctacne and another Bob sent it to me off line. Thanks. I will write yo a note a line in a while. Thanks angel Monday, November 14, 2005, 11:07:52 AM, you wrote: > Angel, > I have the article but am reluctant to post it here. That might > cause copyright problems for Larry's site. > If you will send me your email addr., I will send the article. > Bob Barns > Angel wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist >> CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a >> microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think >> that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was >> called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my >> subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur >> Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting >> rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Angel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> __________ NOD32 1.1284 (20051111) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > __________________________________________________________ > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: Amateur Scientist CD From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:28:49 -0500 Hello James, Thanks and you guessed right I have been to both! regards, Angel Monday, November 14, 2005, 11:15:03 AM, you wrote: > You might also want to look at > http://geology.heroy.smu.edu/~hayward/ > and > http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm > If you haven't already. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: "David Saum" DSaum@............ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:11:19 -0500 Hi Angel I have the Amateur Scientist CD. Do you still need the article? I am collecting parts for a microbarograph similar to http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm I am planning to take my QM-4.5 geophone electronics and replace the geophone/opamp with a low pressure differential sensor and an instrumentation amp. Everything else would remain the same and Amaseis could be used for data logging. Here is another interesting microbarograph reference with pictures of a wind noise reduction system http://www.knmi.nl/~evers/infrasound/web-article/how.html BTW: I recently got some ADXL103 1-axis accelerometer samples and I have found that I can mount them along with a tuning capacitor on an 8 pin DIP-surface mount adapter board and then plug this into the 8 pin DIP opamp socket on my QM-4.5 board, and that is all that is required to produce a single axis +/-1.5g strong motion seismometer. My 16 bit ADC resolution is 0.076mg and the noise level at my 0-4.5 Hz bandwidth is 3.5adc units or about 0.3mg. Can I send one to you to try out on your QM-4.5 board? I would like to see if you can detect a quake with it. I may have to wait some time for a +1mg seismic event here in VA. Ciao, Dave http://www.infiltec.com/seismo > Subject: Amateur Scientist CD > From: Angel > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:26:54 -0500 > > Hi All, > > Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist > CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a > microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think > that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was > called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my > subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur > Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting > rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. > > Thanks, > > Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: ebay auction From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:09:29 -0800 Hi Everyone, If anyone can help out please send email directly to Carol and CC the list. Thanks, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:07:19 -0800 From: CASkold@....... User Name: Carol Skold User Address: CASkold@....... Subject: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) ----------------------------------------------------------- I am a volunteer at Luther Burbank Home & Gardens in Santa Rosa, CA We are putting a new exhibit in our museum for next year concerning the 1906 Quake mainly as it affected Santa Rosa. In our archives of Mr. Burbank we have a form with the above title which appears to be something that was given to citizens asking them to be observers of quakes, to record the data on the form, and it also has a list of earthquake intensities (Adapted Rossi-Forel). Do you have any information about these old records. They show 19.. in the date space so are after 1900. Mr. Burbank died in 1926. He published his account of the 1906 quake and was very interested in the event. We would like to know more about them, are they stored somewhere, could we get copies of his observations, who else would/might have info on them? Any information you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:30:35 -0500 Hi gang, NOMIS NCSC 5000 VME SEISMOGRAPH Item number: 6227244945 ends Nov 22 Note rather high shipping and a rather low feedback score. Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: [Fwd: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology)] From: "Steve Hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:20:45 -0800 Hello Carol, See if you can locate a copy of California Earthquake of April 18, 1906 published by Carnege Institution of Washington 1908 reprinted in 1969. This is the reprint of the report of the California State earthquake Investigation commission with Chariman Andrew C. Lawson providing an account of the earthquake. It includes 13 pictures of the damage in the Santa Rosa area with remarks. For example, (Page-199) Santa Rosa-- Prof. R.S. Holway made a study of the effects of the earthquake at Santa Rosa and the surrounding territory. According to the text, Sanata Rosa had the most extensive damage of any city in the earthquake and was only second to Sebastopol (where the Burbank farm was located). In the event you cannot locate the report, I have included the text below. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To your question: >Burbank we have a form with the above title which appears to >be something that was given to citizens asking them to be observers >of quakes, to record the data on the form, and it also has a list >of earthquake intensities (Adapted Rossi-Forel) The California Earthquake Report contains a record of after-shocks. What you have may be one of the data collection sheets used to obtain consistent data (I'm guessing her)that may have been sent out in one of the three circulars mentioned below. The tables in the report contain the following headings, do they match to what you are looking at? Record of after-shock includes: Day, Beginning of shock, Duration, Intensity, Locality, Remarks Here is the text that goes with the tables. (Page 410) "The list of after-shocks given below has been compiled by A. 0. Lcuschner from all reports that have come to hand. These reports include not only communications in answer to the three circulars sent out, but also other reports by interested observers. In addition many shocks in the list were taken from the separate reports printed in this volume. For the sake of completeness the shocks reported by Prof. Alex. McAdie in his monthly reports of the California Section of the Climatological Service of the AVeather Bureau have also been included. A number of shocks have been inserted in the first proof from Prof. Alex. MeAdie's Catalogue of Earthquakes on the Pacific Coast 1897-1906.1 It should be stated, however, that this list by no means represents a complete enumeration of all after-shocks felt in California since April 18. In general, it may be said that the list becomes increasingly incomplete with the lapse of time since the great earthquake. This is particularly due to the efforts made by some of the newspapers to suppress all news regarding earthquakes in California. The list may be considered complete only for Berkeley, California, where several observers have endeavored to record every shock. As a rule the observer's name is included in the last column, initials being used for observers who have reported more than one shock. A key to the initials is given at the end of the list. The times are expressed in Pacific Standard Time." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report Data about Santa Rosa and the Burbank Farm. The following is taken directly from the text (Page-205) "Mr. G. K. Gilbert also visited the Burbank farm at Sebastopol, and contributes the following note referring in part to the cracks discust by President Jordan: Mr. Luther Burbank gave me an account of personal experiences and of various phenomena at Santa Rosa, and I record such items as are supplementary to Professor Holway's report. Mr. Burbank was awake at the time. He immediately got out of bed, but found he could not stand, and settled back against the bed, holding on to the window casing and bedpost. The initial impulse was from the west, and during the first portion of the earthquake the motion was oscillatory, east and west. Then it became oscillatory north and south, and at the close there was a complex motion which he compared with that of a vessel in a choppy sea. From the window he saw trees waving, and after the tremor had ceased he seemed to see a continued disturbance in the foot-hills at the east, as tho the tremor was retreating in that direction. He said that practically every one in Santa Rosa who was on foot at the time was thrown to the ground, but that men on bicycles were not upset. During more than 30 years' residence in Santa Rosa he had felt about 130 earthquakes. None were comparable in violence with the recent one, tho several had broken chimneys. A number of earthquakes which were felt generally in Santa Rosa had not been felt at all in Sebastopol, and he thought that Santa Rosa was peculiarly subject to shocks. A shock was felt in Santa Rosa on April 17, 1906. Mr. Lawrence, foreman on Mr. Burbank's farm at Sebastopol, stated that men standing or walking at the time of the shock were thrown from their feet, as were cows and horses. The small house on the Burbank place was moved from its foundations a fewr inches downhill, and Mr. Lawrence mentioned a number of houses which had moved various distances, the direction in every case being downhill. On the Burbank farm a small landslide occurred, a layer of moist soil only a few feet in thickness moving down the slope, introducing bends in various lines of cultivated plants. I saw another feature of this sort on an adjacent farm, and was told of others which I did not visit. In a general note on the intensity of the earthquake, appended to detailed observations which have been incorporated in the foregoing account of the distribution of intensity, Mr. G. K. Gilbert says: In general the violence seems to have been less in Petaluma than in Sebastopol, Santa Rosa, or Maacama, notwithstanding the fact that it is nearer the main fault. As compared with Sebastopol and Santa Rosa, however, Petaluma seems to be on relatively firm ground, excepting a small district bordering the marshes. In a general way, I think the relative violence in the three towns corresponds to the character of their foundations, but considering the district as a whole, in relation to districts nearer the main fault, it is clear that the intensity was exceptionally high." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope this helps-- Regards, Steve Hammond -- PSN San Jose, Aptos CA http://pw2.netcom.com/~shammon1/psnsj.htm -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Larry Cochrane Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:09 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: [Fwd: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology)] Hi Everyone, If anyone can help out please send email directly to Carol and CC the list. Thanks, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:07:19 -0800 From: CASkold@....... User Name: Carol Skold User Address: CASkold@....... Subject: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) ----------------------------------------------------------- I am a volunteer at Luther Burbank Home & Gardens in Santa Rosa, CA We are putting a new exhibit in our museum for next year concerning the 1906 Quake mainly as it affected Santa Rosa. In our archives of Mr. . Do you have any information about these old records. They show 19.. in the date space so are after 1900. Mr. Burbank died in 1926. He published his account of the 1906 quake and was very interested in the event. We would like to know more about them, are they stored somewhere, could we get copies of his observations, who else would/might have info on them? Any information you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Power supply sought From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 00:46:49 -0800 Anyone know where I can obtain a power supply that's comparable to the POWER SUPPLY MODEL 48.11C? This particular model is used for the Geotech Teledybne Helicorder RV 105 model. I suppose I could contact Geotech but would rather not spend the money. Kareem __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:52:07 -0500 Hi gang, Kinemetrics Ranger SS-1 Seismometer Item number: 7565024152 ends 11/27 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Seismic Detector From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:49:51 -0700 Hello, I got this circuit set up only to alarm when a signal comes in and not to record anything and it works quite well. If you just want to know if the earth is really moving and it is not just your imagination then this circuit might be for you. I used OP177G op amps from the Philippines all through but most probably you can use other types capable of driving the loads. Post: [IMG]http://files.photojerk.com/gmvoeth/seisdet1.jpg[/IMG] The caps were measured using a DMM before designing the circuits. regards gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: e-Quake Seismic Explorer From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:34:23 -0800 Hi Everyone, Ken Smith, who works for the University of Nevada Reno in the Nevada Seismological Lab and owner of e-Quake, has a program called Seismic Explorer. His software works with my PSN-ADC-SERIAL 16-Bit Analog to Digital board. See his web page at http://www.equakenet.com/ for more information. Ken is looking for some beta testers who have Internet connections using DHCP rather then a static IP address so he can test out his data server. He would like people who have a short-period sensor like a geophone and live in an area that has local events. If you can help out, or for more information, please contact Ken at ken@.............. Thanks, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: e-Quake Seismic Explorer From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:14:09 -0600 Below is a section of my website where I have posted stuff on the Nov, 6 F3 tornado that passed by me. I am sure many of you don't have tornadoes passing by your equipment very often. If you will click on November 6 F3 ...... at this site http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/, you will see some of the damage and data. Your comments and expertise would be appreciated. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:47:39 -0700 When i try to access the information on http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/index_files/Page329.htm I get file not found error You should do a FFT analysis of your raw digital data and see if you can extract the rotational rate of the funnel cloud from the data. I would expect the rotational rate of a .75 mile wide funnel with 100 mph wind speed to have a rotational period near 84 seconds or less. If the tornado was traveling at 60mph then the rotational speed was probably only about 100mph. It made me sad that was unable to see the seismic data, but what the hey, thats the story of my life. :-) gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:38:58 -0600 > > I get file not found error --- it may be that you didn't let it load -- it maybe a little large > > I will have to pull the data off backup and look at this. How would this register on the seismometer? > If the tornado was traveling at 60mph > then the rotational speed was probably > only about 100mph. > The weather "specialists" with government weather station in our area estimated the wind speeds of around 300 mph > It made me sad that was unable to see the > seismic data, but what the hey, thats the story of my life. > Try again -- I included a seismogram from today's 6.2 at the bottom of the page. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:26:34 -0500 Fascinating collection of information -- you've got the eye of a = forensics engineer. I'm going to do a bit of shooting from the hip here, so don't = put too much reliance on my guesses. I agree that a particularly likely strong source is the radio tower = behind you. The guy wires are visible in the photo -- and they don't appear to = have any dampers on them (at least not within the view of the camera. One particular event in your record (that you identified as the initial high winds) at 7:28 suggests the tower (its components) had gone into a = resonant mode lasting about 2-minutes with a relatively constant amplitude. You = can eventually sort-out how much of a signal you get from the tower by = keeping (or getting) a log of wind speed and direction. Then compare that data = to associated recordings from the seismometer. There are undoubtedly a = plethora of common frequencies associated with the tower and its guy wires. I do a fair amount of work in structural and ground-transmitted = vibrations. In virtually all of my long-term setups, I always have provisions to = shut the acquisition system down as thunderstorms approach the region. One of = the things I'd like to have is a database of characteristic ground responses = to thunder. Perhaps you have some of that information wrapped-up in your records. You might check with the local weather service office to see if = you can get access to their lightning-strike database. I've got a sneaky suspicion that some of the higher spikes may be the initial shock from a lightning strike. One of the things I sometimes find useful when analyzing long strings of vibration data is to convert the record into an audio file. In this = case, we'd have to fool the file translator into thinking the sampling rate = was about 1kH or higher rather than your actual slow rate. Obviously, a lot more information can be visually extracted if we = weren't faced with the inherent clutter of the drum-recorder format. The exceptionally low-frequency responses at 6:52 and 7:37 appear to be almost identical in magnitude and phase -- is that some artifact of your system, I just cannot rationalize that they represent natural events. I'd be very interested in looking at your digital files to see what = usable info can be extracted. Contact me off-line if you like. Finally, what is the natural frequency of your system? Regards, -Tim- Timothy Carpenter, P.E., Pres., GeoDynamics Consultants, Inc. 5043 Whitlow Ct. Commerce Twp., Mi 48382 248-363-4529 (voice & fax) 248-766-1629 (cell) geodynamics@........... (primary) geodynamics@....... (secondary) =A0 -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Thomas Dick Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:14 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: tornadoes and earthquake detection Below is a section of my website where I have posted stuff on the Nov, 6 = F3=20 tornado that passed by me. I am sure many of you don't have tornadoes=20 passing by your equipment very often. If you will click on November 6 F3 = ...... at this site http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/, you will = see=20 some of the damage and data. Your comments and expertise would be=20 appreciated.=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:30:45 -0700 > I will have to pull the data off backup and look at this. How would this > register on the seismometer? I would expect any periodic thing to register similar to a sine wave and be detectable by an FFT program and if you are able to integrate your data over time you might be able to see intelligence that is below the noise level. The bandwidth of such a signal would probably be quite wide. The rotation of a tornado is a periodic event. >> If the tornado was traveling at 60mph >> then the rotational speed was probably >> only about 100mph. >> > The weather "specialists" with government weather station in our area > estimated the wind speeds of around 300 mph If the windspeed is 300mph and the forward speed is 60 then the actual rotation would be about 240 at the measuring radius from the center and if the diameter is 0.75 miles then the rotational period should be about 12441f circum/352fps or 35 seconds per rotation. I expect the actual scenario in three dimensions to be considerably more complex then this but this represents the best idea I can visualize in my crazy brain. I find it amazing that if a tornado f5 passes over a given point the wind speeds measured across the center is in the transonic range I can not imagine any structure withstanding transonic wind velocities across itself. Funny things happen in the transonic ranges because gas compressional effects have their way. If you look at the edges of a tornado you will see a heat like shimmer seemingly related to index of refraction changes and I suspect this is the rotational area you would be interested in knowing the windspeed of. Air density is probably most intense at some radius with a slight vacuum in the center due to centrifugal/centripetal forces. You want to look at the radius where this air density is compressed against the inrushing air inorder to guess what rotational rate to see on a seismogram. I have pondered these ideas over a considerable length of time but have no use for any of them. Maybe one of you seismic gurus can invent a tornado detector using a seismometer and a fft program somehow. The only thing I can imagine is building a home uaing aircraft construction techniques half underground in the shape of a flying saucer to stand up to these tremendous wind forces. :-) gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:45:22 -0700 " One of the things I sometimes find useful when analyzing long strings of vibration data is to convert the record into an audio file. In this case, we'd have to fool the file translator into thinking the sampling rate was about 1kH or higher rather than your actual slow rate. " Use a wave file and invent a header with a standard sample rate used by most audio programs then you can convert to any other file format desired. I think 44100 samples per second is typical maximum. I like using 8 bit samples but 16 is also possible. Try to make one hertz on the gram equal to 100 or more. The human ear is most sensitive to changes in freq at about 500Hz which is the freq of a typical human whistle. :-) gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:41:24 -0500 Some add'l info. http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/new/tornado.html http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=3D1275953 continue google search with "Frank Tatum" and "Stan Vitton" plus = variously snail geophone seismic tornado -Tim- Timothy Carpenter, P.E., Pres., GeoDynamics Consultants, Inc. 5043 Whitlow Ct. Commerce Twp., Mi 48382 248-363-4529 (voice & fax) 248-766-1629 (cell) geodynamics@........... (primary) geodynamics@....... (secondary) =A0 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: Mauro Mariotti mariotti@......... Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 07:48:17 +0100 Hi Thomas, basicly during storm you get from the ground the motion picked and transmitted to the ground from the buildings, trees and high structures like antennas, pilons etc. All tall stuffs acts as lever to the ground transmitting A LOT of noise much more than you can expect. Is not for a chance the bests seismic stations are located deep underground and far from trees and high objects. So that is what you recorded, noise of turbulence inducted by the object over the surface. Not last also the ground itself is put in motion from the air pressure change but that is another story. Resonance effect related to the shape of the structures and the windspeed are present too. regards mauro At 21:14 2005/12/02, you wrote: >Below is a section of my website where I have posted stuff on the >Nov, 6 F3 tornado that passed by me. I am sure many of you don't >have tornadoes passing by your equipment very often. If you will >click on November 6 F3 ..... at this site >http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/, you will see some of the >damage and data. Your comments and expertise would be appreciated. > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body >of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:31:46 EST In a message dated 02/12/05, gmvoeth@........... writes: > Maybe one of you seismic gurus can invent a tornado detector > using a seismometer and a fft program somehow. Hi Geoff, Two US scientists were publicised as trying to do just that shortly after this severe tornado. You ought to be able to pick up severe turbulence and local thunder, but maybe the 10 Hz cutoff of most seismic systems will limit you. The seismic background noise certainly increases as a cold front or a storm system passes by. Deciding what is an incipient tornado and what are 'normal' storm system noise signals may be more difficult. You will also see a lot of wind related noise. Any structure protruding into the airflow generates a string of von Karman votrices downwind, to a distance over 100 x the height of the object. The frequency is proportional to the windspeed and inversely proportional to the width of the object. This applies from 'singing' phone wires to whole mountains. Trees and tall buildings couple their oscillations into ground motion at seismic frequencies. You can also couple up an amplifier + audio recorder to a geophone and actually listen to the environmental and other signals in the ground. When I get an unexpected / unexplained background signal, I 'listen in'. I can hear the tyre noise of cars on the main road from over 1,000 yards away. An apparently random, but fairly large local signal turned out to be when heavy lorry tyres ran over a depressed water drain in the road. Wind noise from trees are all too frequent events. You might have better luck for tornado warning using a large area Infrasound microphone, similar to those used for CTBT detectors. Tornadoes generate a lot of LF / VLF noise. If you buy one of the 60 to 80 nF capacity Piezo Sounder disks and use a FET input opamp with a 100 M Ohm input, you should get down to below 0.03 Hz, no problem. Piezo Sounder disks are made to convert electrical signals into sound waves, but they work very nicely converting LF sound waves into electrical signals! A two Litre thermos filled with low density polyurethane foam makes quite a good backing volume. You need to provide a capillary leak into the flask, so that very slow atmospheric pressure changes do not build up over time. The response of the disk will be from several hundred Hz down to the low frequency cutoff due to the opamp input RC time constant. You can fit a low pass filter to the input. This may consist of a rigid container, like a couple of large glass drinks bottles with a length of tube on the input and the output to set the roll off frequency. The direct analogy is a resistor connected to a capacitor followed by a resistor to the backing volume capacitor. Ideally, the filter capacity would be several times the size of the backing volume. These sort of systems are used in gliders for variometer lift / sink air pressure change indication, filtering out much of the higher frequency air turbulence signals. Incidentally, you can make a quite useful seismic sensor by fitting a weight to the centre of one of these disks. With a FET input opamp, they can out perform a geophone. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 02/12/05, gmvoeth@........... writes:

Maybe one of you seismic gu= rus can invent a tornado detector
using a seismometer and a fft program somehow.

Hi Geoff,

      Two US scientists were publicised a= s trying to do just that shortly after this severe tornado. You ought to be=20= able to pick up severe turbulence and local thunder, but maybe the 10 Hz cut= off of most seismic systems will limit you. The seismic background noise cer= tainly increases as a cold front or a storm system passes by. Deciding what=20= is an incipient tornado and what are 'normal' storm system noise signals may= be more difficult.

      You will also see a lot of wind rel= ated noise. Any structure protruding into the airflow generates a string of=20= von Karman votrices downwind, to a distance over 100 x the height of the obj= ect. The frequency is proportional to the windspeed and inversely proportion= al to the width of the object. This applies from 'singing' phone wires to wh= ole mountains. Trees and tall buildings couple their oscillations into groun= d motion at seismic frequencies.

      You can also couple up an amplifier= + audio recorder to a geophone and actually listen to the environmental and= other signals in the ground. When I get an unexpected / unexplained backgro= und signal, I 'listen in'. I can hear the tyre noise of cars on the main roa= d from over 1,000 yards away. An apparently random, but fairly large local s= ignal turned out to be when heavy lorry tyres ran over a depressed water dra= in in the road. Wind noise from trees are all too frequent events.

      You might have better luck for torn= ado warning using a large area Infrasound microphone, similar to those used=20= for CTBT detectors. Tornadoes generate a lot of LF / VLF noise. If you buy o= ne of the 60 to 80 nF capacity Piezo Sounder disks and use a FET input opamp= with a 100 M Ohm input, you should get down to below 0.03 Hz, no problem. P= iezo Sounder disks are made to convert electrical signals into sound waves,=20= but they work very nicely converting LF sound waves into electrical signals!=

      A two Litre thermos filled with low= density polyurethane foam makes quite a good backing volume. You need to pr= ovide a capillary leak into the flask, so that very slow atmospheric pressur= e changes do not build up over time. The response of the disk will be from s= everal hundred Hz down to the low frequency cutoff due to the opamp input RC= time constant.=20

      You can fit a low pass filter to th= e input. This may consist of a rigid container, like a couple of large glass= drinks bottles with a length of tube on the input and the output to set the= roll off frequency. The direct analogy is a resistor connected to a capacit= or followed by a resistor to the backing volume capacitor. Ideally, the filt= er capacity would be several times the size of the backing volume. These sor= t of systems are used in gliders for variometer lift / sink air pressure cha= nge indication, filtering out much of the higher frequency air turbulence si= gnals.

      Incidentally, you can make a quite=20= useful seismic sensor by fitting a weight to the centre of one of these disk= s. With a FET input opamp, they can out perform a geophone.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman

        Subject: 16-bit A/D board for sale From: apsn apsn@........... Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 09:58:13 -0900 I have a used Larry Cochrane/Webtronics 16-bit A/D PC board for sale on eBay. I am selling it because I now have one of Larry's serial A/D boards. Here's the eBay link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5837305999 It needs to go to a good home. Bob Hammond Public Seismic Network - Alaska http://apsn.awcable.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: Bob Barns royb1@........... Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:46:34 -0500 Wilmot Seismoscope Strong-Motion Earthquake Recorder Item number: 6586183795 ends 12/12 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: Bob Barns royb1@........... Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:48:38 -0500 Vibra-Tech Everlert II Seismometer Item number: 7569819748 ends 12/12 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: 16-bit A/D board for sale From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:35:53 -0500 Hello Bob, I got all exited when I saw you board listed because I had been in conversations with Ken Smith who wrote Seismic Explorer http://www.equakenet.com/HTML/se_doc.html and he wrote me this. "We support Larry's 16-bit digitizer; we have not integrated the code for his newest units." So I was just about to order one from Larry when yours came out. It turns out that Ken is talking about Larry's new digitizer. The upshot is that I can't use the board I bid on. I will not retract my bid and if need be I will have it shipped to me and re-list it. If I do win I would be glad to pay for your expenses and have you re-list it. I would send you a paypal payment to cover your expenses including the paypal cost. I should have done my homework a bit better, all it would have taken was to re-read Larry's original email. I will be traveling to El Salvador latter today but will be checking my e-mail daily. Bob, I am sorry about this. Warmly, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: my bad From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:55:43 -0500 Hello Everyone, Sorry about my last message which was meant just for Bob. Regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Earthquake Alarm From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:11:32 EST =20 I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? =20 --Bob =20 Earthquake Alarm=20 By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund =20 Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and peop= le are=20 starting to listen =20 _http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/2367_=20 (http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/2367)=20

I am taking this article with a grain of salt. Wh= at do=20 you think?

--Bob

Earthquake Alarm
By: = Tom=20 Bleier and Friedemann Freund
Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2= =80=94and=20 people are starting to listen

http://www.spectrum.ieee.or= g/dec05/2367
Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: Canie canie@........... Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:20:55 -0800 Yes.. and nothing like this showed up prior to the Parkfield quake.. and=20 magentics and ELF/ULF were being monitored with ground based=20 instrumentation. Nothing heralded the upcoming quake that hit. It will be= =20 interesting to see if satellite instrumentation is different. I've set up= =20 a QuakeFinder instrument to monitor ULF frequencies. It will be interesting to see what other research finds... Canie At 09:11 PM 12/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? > >--Bob > >Earthquake Alarm >By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund >Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and= people=20 >are starting to listen > >http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05= /2367 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:07:35 EST In a message dated 07/12/05, Bobhelenmcclure@....... writes: > I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? > That is not enough salt. Regards, Chris In a message=20= dated 07/12/05, Bobhelenmcclure@....... writes:

I am taking this article wi= th a grain of salt. What do you think?

      That is not enough salt.

      Regards,

      Chris
Subject: Re: earthquake alarm From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:28:06 +1100 ohhh thats quick and harsh condemnation dont be so fast to condem guys, a little openmindedness to other possibilities can go a long way If we had had the same thoughts about space travel we would never left the ground to explore other planets Although these ideas are not new, they were still being talked about when I was doing my university geology studies 10 yrs ago maybe its just a matter of time till we have the appropriate electronics to routinely record the ELF signals etc maybe at the moment with the current receiver equip. it takes a really decent sized quake to generate enough ELF radio signal for us to record it maybe the ~ M6 events of parkfield are jst not big enuf cheers Dave __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:39:54 +1300 Hi Canie=20 Where's Parkfield, as you see I'm a Kiwi and Parkfield doesn't ring any = bells Cheers Tamati=20 (A Man of Many Mission's) Cheers Tamati From The Castle of Tamati, Hinemoa and Karauwa NZ6658 From The Castle of Tom, Robyn & The Dog NZ6658 =20 I'm Only a Stone Throw Away:- NZ-021-150-33-59 or NZ-07-855-0195 Bush Telegraph:- chief.cook.nz@............ Regular Pitshop:- Tamati = P.O.Box 19-356 CENTRAL = HAMILTON 2030=20 NEW = ZEALAND ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Canie" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:20 PM Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm Yes.. and nothing like this showed up prior to the Parkfield quake.. and = magentics and ELF/ULF were being monitored with ground based=20 instrumentation. Nothing heralded the upcoming quake that hit. It will = be=20 interesting to see if satellite instrumentation is different. I've set = up=20 a QuakeFinder instrument to monitor ULF frequencies. It will be interesting to see what other research finds... Canie At 09:11 PM 12/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? > >--Bob > >Earthquake Alarm >By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund >Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and = people=20 >are starting to listen > >http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/de= c05/2367 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: Alexandr Yagodin midia@.............. Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:00:20 +0200 http://www.inauka.ru/blogs/article59860.html The sirs, you hi from Haifa! What for to search for that I already have found? It is necessary simply to give money to tests of system, and one station = I already have tested. http://www.seu.ru/members/earthquakes/protocol.htm=20 Best regards, Alexandr Yagodin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobhelenmcclure@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 4:11 AM Subject: Earthquake Alarm I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? --Bob Earthquake Alarm=20 By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund=20 Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and = people are starting to listen http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/2367= =EF=BB=BF
http://www.inauka.r= u/blogs/article59860.html

The sirs, you hi from = Haifa!

What for to search for that I already = have=20 found?

It is necessary simply to give money to = tests of=20 system, and one station I already have tested.

http://www.se= u.ru/members/earthquakes/protocol.htm=20

Best regards,

Alexandr Yagodin

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bobhelenmcclure@....... =

You set up your geophone to be critically damped. The additional amplifier has a frequency selective gain which tailors into the damping curve. The gain down to 1/10 the natural resonance is increased to a max of x100 to compensate for the f^2 natural rolloff. The overall response stays flat with velocity from 0.5 Hz to your low pass filter rolloff of maybe 10 Hz. Below 0.5 Hz the amplification falls off sharply again.

If so, I can adjust my programmable filter to do the same thing, never thought about that... Presumably this lowers the overall sensitivity of the device(?). Would you move the upper frequency down too or keep it just above its natural frequency - 4.5 Hz?

You will quickly run into digitisation step / noise problems if you try to do it that way, unless you have the overall amplifier gain set WAY UP. Can you even set up your filter to have a reciprocal f^2 response reducing to unity at about 9 Hz and falling again below 0.5 Hz? The overall output voltage sensitivity stays the same, just the bandwidth is increased. There is a small increase in the overall noise. The major ++ is being able to detect the P and S waves directly with a 4.5 Hz geophone. The original Roberts' circuit used a high pass filter which was still sensitive to 1/f VLF noise. Using a modified filter circuit has removed most of that noise. Regards, Chris Chapman __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.