Subject: Folded pendulum history From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:20:58 -0500 All, I have finally hit pay dirt in my quest for the original folded pendulum seismometer. The original instrument of this type was built in 1882 by Dr James Ewing. I believe that Dr Ewing was in Tokyo at the time. His instrument used a common pendulum coupled to an inverted pendulum so as to decrease the stability of the common pendulum. It appears to me that this was a two-axis instrument. Dr Ewing referred to it as a "Duplex pendulum" seismometer. History has it that a number, possibly ten of these instruments were placed at sites in Northern California and Nevada during 1887-1888. Seismographic observatories at Berkeley and Mount Hamilton had duplex pendulum seismometers. Perhaps an avid researcher in California might be able to actually find one of these instruments. Dr Ewing built many different seismometers and, along with Dr Thomas Gray, He seems to have been one of the founders of modern seismological instrumentation. The single axis instrument which I constructed is certainly not identical to the two-axis unit of Ewing, but it employs the same principals and is, in many ways similar to his duplex pendulum design. My best to all, Dave... __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Folded pendulum history From: Jim ODonnell jimo17@........ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 23:13:28 -0800 Hi Dave- Try looking in Bulletin of the Seismological Society of America. Vol. 59, No. 1, pp. 183-227. February, 1969 or go to: http://neic.usgs.gov/neis/seismology/history_seis.html to see what Ewing did. BTW- Dewey works in the same office as John Lahr- NEIC-Denver...Jim/UNLV The Early History of Seismometry (to 1900) by James Dewey and Perry Byerly Abstract The earliest seismoscope was invented in 132 A.D., by Chang Hêng. Seismoscopes of limited effectiveness were used by Bina and others in the eighteenth century. The middle nineteenth century saw the invention by Palmieri of a seismoscope to record the times of small earthquakes. A successful seismograph of low sensitivity was invented by Cecchi in 1875. British scientists at the College of Engineering, Tokyo, independently built seismographs in the 1880's. The British in Japan made many observations with their instruments and must be credited with first demonstrating the value to seismology of seismographic devices. Von Rebeur-Paschwitz obtained the first recording of a teleseism in 1889. In the next decade, investigators in Italy, Germany, and England studied the waves from distant earthquakes and constructed the first teleseismic travel-time charts. Wiechert introduced a seismometer with viscous damping in 1898. Theory seems to have been neglected in the early development of the seismograph. Theoretical studies of forced damped harmonic-oscillator seismographs were presented by Perry and Ayrton, and Lippmann, but these had little effect on the construction of seismographs. In the 1890's, the importance of tilt was much debated. By 1900, many seismologists had become convinced that the effect of tilting on seismograph response could usually be neglected. On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:20:58 -0500 "David H. Youden" writes: > All, > > I have finally hit pay dirt in my quest for the original folded > pendulum > seismometer. > > The original instrument of this type was built in 1882 by Dr James > Ewing. I > believe that Dr Ewing was in Tokyo at the time. His instrument used > a > common pendulum coupled to an inverted pendulum so as to decrease > the > stability of the common pendulum. It appears to me that this was a > two-axis > instrument. Dr Ewing referred to it as a "Duplex pendulum" > seismometer. > > History has it that a number, possibly ten of these instruments were > placed > at sites in Northern California and Nevada during 1887-1888. > Seismographic > observatories at Berkeley and Mount Hamilton had duplex pendulum > seismometers. > > Perhaps an avid researcher in California might be able to actually > find one > of these instruments. > > Dr Ewing built many different seismometers and, along with Dr Thomas > Gray, > He seems to have been one of the founders of modern seismological > instrumentation. > > The single axis instrument which I constructed is certainly not > identical > to the two-axis unit of Ewing, but it employs the same principals > and is, > in many ways similar to his duplex pendulum design. > > My best to all, > Dave... > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > >
Hi Dave- Try looking in   Bulletin = of the=20 Seismological Society of America. Vol. 59, No. 1, pp. 183-227. February= ,=20 1969  or go to: http://neic= ..usgs.gov/neis/seismology/history_seis.html to=20 see what Ewing did.
BTW- Dewey works in the same office as John Lahr-=20 NEIC-Denver...Jim/UNLV
 

The Early History of Seismometry (to = 1900)=20

by
James Dewey and Perry Byerly= =20
 
 

Abstract

The earliest seismoscope was invented in 132 A.D= .., by=20 Chang H=EAng. Seismoscopes of limited effectiveness were used by Bina and= others=20 in the eighteenth century. The middle nineteenth century saw the = invention by=20 Palmieri of a seismoscope to record the times of small earthquakes.

A successful seismograph of low sensitivity was = invented by=20 Cecchi in 1875. British scientists at the College of Engineering, Tokyo,= =20 independently built seismographs in the 1880's. The British in Japan made= many=20 observations with their instruments and must be credited with first=20 demonstrating the value to seismology of seismographic devices.

Von Rebeur-Paschwitz obtained the first recording of a= =20 teleseism in 1889. In the next decade, investigators in Italy, Germany, = and=20 England studied the waves from distant earthquakes and constructed the = first=20 teleseismic travel-time charts. Wiechert introduced a seismometer with = viscous=20 damping in 1898.

Theory seems to have been neglected in the early = development=20 of the seismograph. Theoretical studies of forced damped harmonic-= oscillator=20 seismographs were presented by Perry and Ayrton, and Lippmann, but these = had=20 little effect on the construction of seismographs. In the 1890's, the=20 importance of tilt was much debated. By 1900, many seismologists had = become=20 convinced that the effect of tilting on seismograph response could = usually be=20 neglected.

 
 

=
On Mon, 31 Mar 2003 17:20:58 -0500 "David H. Youden" <dyouden@.........> writes:
>= =20 All,
>
> I have finally hit pay dirt in my quest for the = original=20 folded
> pendulum
> seismometer.
>
> The = original=20 instrument of this type was built in 1882 by Dr James
> Ewing. I >=20 believe that Dr Ewing was in Tokyo at the time. His instrument used
>= ; a=20
> common pendulum coupled to an inverted pendulum so as to decrease= =20
> the
> stability of the common pendulum. It appears to me = that=20 this was a
> two-axis
> instrument. Dr Ewing referred to it = as a=20 "Duplex pendulum"
> seismometer.
>
> History has it = that a=20 number, possibly ten of these instruments were
> placed
> at = sites=20 in Northern California and Nevada during 1887-1888.
> Seismographic= =20
> observatories at Berkeley and Mount Hamilton had duplex pendulum=20
> seismometers.
>
> Perhaps an avid researcher in = California=20 might be able to actually
> find one
> of these=20 instruments.
>
> Dr Ewing built many different seismometers = and,=20 along with Dr Thomas
> Gray,
> He seems to have been one of = the=20 founders of modern seismological
> instrumentation.
>
>= The=20 single axis instrument which I constructed is certainly not
> = identical=20
> to the two-axis unit of Ewing, but it employs the same principals= =20
> and is,
> in many ways similar to his duplex pendulum=20 design.
>
> My best to all,
> Dave...
>
>=20 __________________________________________________________
>
>= =20 Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)
>
> To leave this = list=20 email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20
> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
> See= http://www.seismicnet.com/= maillist.html=20 for more information.
>
>
 
Subject: Quote of the day From: "Brady Romberg" bromberg@......... Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 20:34:47 -0700 Quote of the day: "You know the world is changing when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese, the Swiss hold the America's Cup, France is accusing the USA of arrogance and the Germans don't want to go to war!" __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Quote of the day - posting of OT material From: "Larry Cochrane" cochrane@.............. Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 19:53:16 -0800 I just send Brady a note telling him that his message was off topic and not allowed on this list. -Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN >From: "Brady Romberg" >Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 7:34 PM >Subject: Quote of the day __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Folded pendulum history From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 22:44:39 -0700 Hi Dave, Thanks for finding this information! What do you think we should call this type of system? How about "Ewing duplex-pendulum seismometer?" Cheers, John At 03:20 PM 3/31/2003, you wrote: >All, > >I have finally hit pay dirt in my quest for the original folded pendulum >seismometer. > >The original instrument of this type was built in 1882 by Dr James Ewing. >I believe that Dr Ewing was in Tokyo at the time. His instrument used a >common pendulum coupled to an inverted pendulum so as to decrease the >stability of the common pendulum. It appears to me that this was a >two-axis instrument. Dr Ewing referred to it as a "Duplex pendulum" >seismometer. > >History has it that a number, possibly ten of these instruments were >placed at sites in Northern California and Nevada during 1887-1888. >Seismographic observatories at Berkeley and Mount Hamilton had duplex >pendulum seismometers. > >Perhaps an avid researcher in California might be able to actually find >one of these instruments. > >Dr Ewing built many different seismometers and, along with Dr Thomas Gray, >He seems to have been one of the founders of modern seismological >instrumentation. > >The single axis instrument which I constructed is certainly not identical >to the two-axis unit of Ewing, but it employs the same principals and is, >in many ways similar to his duplex pendulum design. > >My best to all, >Dave... > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the >message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Seismic Display From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" lehmancj@........... Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 17:20:45 -0500 PSN-friends, Saturday Mar. 29, I exhibited the JMU, "Lehman" long = period sensor at the Nat. Assoc. of Geoscience Teachers, & Nat. Earth = Science Teachers Assoc. Share-a-thon in Philadelphia. An interesting = "Earth Science" Day--- An enjoyable occasion--a number of inquiries. I = as always, give a big promotion to the PSN and its resources/links, = etc. Perhaps there will be some new people moving into the world of = real-time seismic activities. Best wishes, Jim Lehman
PSN-friends,  = Saturday Mar.=20 29, I exhibited the JMU, "Lehman" long period sensor at the Nat. Assoc. = of=20 Geoscience Teachers, & Nat. Earth Science Teachers  Assoc. = Share-a-thon=20 in Philadelphia.  An interesting "Earth Science" Day--- An = enjoyable=20 occasion--a number of inquiries.  I as always,  give a big = promotion=20 to the PSN and its resources/links, etc.  Perhaps there will be = some new=20 people moving into the world of real-time seismic = activities.
          &nbs= p;            = ;            =    =20 Best wishes, Jim Lehman
Subject: Re: Folded pendulum history From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 06:02:16 -0500 Hi John, Well, it's not exactly going to sell a lot of seismometers, but it does give credit where credit is due. It will probably be shortened to EDP Seismometer, but what the heck. It's certainly OK with me, and since I haven't heard from anyone at UWA recently, let's go with it. So "Ewing Duplex Pendulum Seismometer" it is, unless someone chimes in with a major dissenting opinion. Dave... PS 80 degrees here in North Carolina today> Spring has sprung! At 10:44 PM 3/31/03 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Dave, > >Thanks for finding this information! What do you think we should call this >type of system? How about "Ewing duplex-pendulum seismometer?" > >Cheers, >John > >At 03:20 PM 3/31/2003, you wrote: >>All, >> >>I have finally hit pay dirt in my quest for the original folded pendulum >>seismometer. >> >>The original instrument of this type was built in 1882 by Dr James Ewing. >>I believe that Dr Ewing was in Tokyo at the time. His instrument used a >>common pendulum coupled to an inverted pendulum so as to decrease the >>stability of the common pendulum. It appears to me that this was a >>two-axis instrument. Dr Ewing referred to it as a "Duplex pendulum" >>seismometer. >> >>History has it that a number, possibly ten of these instruments were >>placed at sites in Northern California and Nevada during 1887-1888. >>Seismographic observatories at Berkeley and Mount Hamilton had duplex >>pendulum seismometers. >> >>Perhaps an avid researcher in California might be able to actually find >>one of these instruments. >> >>Dr Ewing built many different seismometers and, along with Dr Thomas >>Gray, He seems to have been one of the founders of modern seismological >>instrumentation. >> >>The single axis instrument which I constructed is certainly not identical >>to the two-axis unit of Ewing, but it employs the same principals and is, >>in many ways similar to his duplex pendulum design. >> >>My best to all, >>Dave... >> >>__________________________________________________________ >> >>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >>the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the >message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: About time issue From: Richard Gagnon richg_1998@......... Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 22:32:05 -0800 (PST) Hello Group I have started using About Time for time correction but it always corrects my computer clock exactly one hour fast. I do not have the daylight savings time option selected in my computer. I have GMT, Greenwich, time zone selected. I have a pentium II, W98SE and I am on a cable modem through my local cable provider. I live in Massachusetts. I connect to U.S. Naval Observatory using SNTP when I use About Time. I can get the proper time if I select the -1 hour Cape Verde selection in my computer clock time zone. If the answer is supposed to be obvious, obviously I have missed it. Thank you. Richard __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: About time issue From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 06:28:42 -0500 Hello Richard, If you are using WXP or W2000 try turning off the windows time service. angel Friday, April 4, 2003, 1:32:05 AM, you wrote: RG> Hello Group RG> I have started using About Time for time correction but it always corrects my RG> computer clock exactly one hour fast. I do not have the daylight savings time RG> option selected in my computer. I have GMT, Greenwich, time zone selected. I RG> have a pentium II, W98SE and I am on a cable modem through my local cable RG> provider. I live in Massachusetts. I connect to U.S. Naval Observatory using RG> SNTP when I use About Time. I can get the proper time if I select the -1 hour RG> Cape Verde selection in my computer clock time zone. If the answer is supposed RG> to be obvious, obviously I have missed it. Thank you. RG> Richard __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: About time issue From: Richard Gagnon richg_1998@......... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 08:08:05 -0800 (PST) Hello Angel I am using W98SE Richard --- "a.rodriguez" wrote: > Hello Richard, > > If you are using WXP or W2000 try turning off the windows time > service. > > angel > > Friday, April 4, 2003, 1:32:05 AM, you wrote: > > RG> Hello Group > > RG> I have started using About Time for time correction but it always > corrects my > RG> computer clock exactly one hour fast. I do not have the daylight savings > time > RG> option selected in my computer. I have GMT, Greenwich, time zone > selected. I > RG> have a pentium II, W98SE and I am on a cable modem through my local cable > RG> provider. I live in Massachusetts. I connect to U.S. Naval Observatory > using > RG> SNTP when I use About Time. I can get the proper time if I select the -1 > hour > RG> Cape Verde selection in my computer clock time zone. If the answer is > supposed > RG> to be obvious, obviously I have missed it. Thank you. > > RG> Richard > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: About time issue From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:38:05 -0500 Hello Richard, Are you sure that you have the saving time thing unchecked? Do it in the control panel with the date and time applet. I don't use "about time" , I use Tardis and it also has a box to uncheck. Make sure that "about time" is not trying to second guess windows. regards, angel Friday, April 4, 2003, 11:08:05 AM, you wrote: RG> Hello Angel RG> I am using W98SE RG> Richard __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: About time issue From: Richard Gagnon richg_1998@......... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 09:54:25 -0800 (PST) Yes, it is unchecked. Richard --- "a.rodriguez" wrote: > Hello Richard, > > Are you sure that you have the saving time thing unchecked? > > Do it in the control panel with the date and time applet. > > I don't use "about time" , I use Tardis and it also has a box to > uncheck. Make sure that "about time" is not trying to second guess > windows. > > regards, > > angel > > Friday, April 4, 2003, 11:08:05 AM, you wrote: > > RG> Hello Angel > > RG> I am using W98SE > > RG> Richard > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Cap's KS36000 Seismometer From: Karl Cunningham karlc@.......... Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 13:53:22 -0800 Hello All -- Most of you are probably aware that some month's ago Casper Hossfield, a member of this list, passed away. Cap had a Geotech KS36000 seismometer. His family wants to clean up his property and needs to get rid of the seismometer and associated documentation, hardware, and electronics. They understand the value of the instrument and want to see it go to a good home. As Cap's family doesn't want to do any more legwork than necessary regarding the seismometer, I volunteered to try to find a taker for it. The seismometer is a Teledyne-Geotech KS36000 bore-hole broadband 3-axis seismometer. It is intended to be lowered into a deep well and is housed in a 5-inch diameter stainless-steel tube about 8 feet long. It weighs about 180 pounds. This is not an instrument for casual use. It is a research-grade instrument which will not operate unless mounted vertically and can be damaged if shocked in excess of 2G. Its intended use was down a 100-meter-deep well, although it can be made to work in a post hole. It is somewhat temperature sensitive but the main reason for the deep hole is to reduce the effects of surface noise. There were approximately 40 of these seismometers surplus at the USGS in Alguquerque, which were given away to researchers, universities, and amateur seismologists. Cap was one of the lucky ones to get one. The KS36000 requires special digital codes be sent to unlock the masses and configure the unit. The outputs are analog. The specifications list very good performance -- a noise floor of about 21 orders of magnitude below gravity. I believe Cap had a Test Set/Controller, which is used to send the required digital codes. Other methods can be used to do this, such as a computer sound card. I think Cap had a manual for the instrument, which is quite thorough and contains setup and maintenance information. The seismometer is located at Cap's house near New Milford, New York, and is offered as-is, where-is. It is in the woods which is currently about a foot of snow on the ground. When the snow melts (about a month), Cap's family would like it to be picked up. It probably will require three or four people to safely get it into a truck. I don't know if Cap's family will be able to help with this part. One further caveat: When the USGS gave the seismometer to Cap, he signed a statement that he would never sell it or otherwise get money for it. Whomever gets it at this point will have to sign a statement to that effect, which will be forwarded to the USGS in Albuquerque. If anyone is interested in the seismometer, please email me off the list. I can supply more details about its construction and operation if needed. If there is no response within a week or two, I will contact the USGS to see if they can find someone. Regards. Karl Cunningham La Mesa, CA. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: About time issue From: Frank Condon frankcnd@.......... Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 22:34:43 +0000 At 08:08 AM 4/4/2003 -0800, you wrote: >Hello Angel > >I am using W98SE > >Richard > > > > >--- "a.rodriguez" wrote: > > Hello Richard, > > > > If you are using WXP or W2000 try turning off the windows time > > service. > > > > angel > > > > Friday, April 4, 2003, 1:32:05 AM, you wrote: > > > > RG> Hello Group > > > > RG> I have started using About Time for time correction but it always > > corrects my > > RG> computer clock exactly one hour fast. I do not have the daylight > savings > > time > > RG> option selected in my computer. I have GMT, Greenwich, time zone > > selected. I > > RG> have a pentium II, W98SE and I am on a cable modem through my local > cable > > RG> provider. I live in Massachusetts. I connect to U.S. Naval Observatory > > using > > RG> SNTP when I use About Time. I can get the proper time if I select > the -1 > > hour > > RG> Cape Verde selection in my computer clock time zone. If the answer is > > supposed > > RG> to be obvious, obviously I have missed it. Thank you. > > > > RG> Richard > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more >http://tax.yahoo.com >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. Hi Richard: Try setting your time zone to Morroco. Great Britain goes on daylight savings time the first Sunday in April. Morroco stays at UTC all of the time. Regards, Frank Condon "Experimental data collected and analyzed for its hidden message is considered preliminary until proven otherwise" __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Cap's KS36000 Seismometer From: hammond hammond@........... Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:29:01 -0900 Karl and other PSN folk, I'm very interested in getting Cap's KS36000 seismometer. I have an abandoned 300+ foot dry well in bedrock which would be ideal for the instrument. The problem is logistics: I'm in Fairbanks, Alaska and the KS36000 is in New York. Is there anyone on the list who might be willing to help with getting it ready to ship? That is, if I'm the chosen recipient.... thanks, Bob Hammond Public Seismic Network - Alaska http://apsn.awcable.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Cap's KS36000 Seismometer From: ACole65464@....... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:49:12 EST A general question for anyone who recieved an old KS36000 unit, have you recorded any meaningful data from it yet? Allan Coleman __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: About time issue From: Richard Gagnon richg_1998@......... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 20:53:32 -0800 (PST) --- Frank Condon wrote: > Hi Richard: > > Try setting your time zone to Morroco. Great Britain goes on daylight > savings time the first Sunday in April. Morroco stays at UTC all of the time. > > Regards, > > Frank Condon > "Experimental data collected and analyzed for its hidden message is > considered preliminary until proven otherwise" Hi Frank That works. My mistake, I thought UTC never changed. Richard __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: About time issue From: "Larry Cochrane" cochrane@.............. Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 21:00:34 -0800 UTC does not change between daylight savings time and standard time. Sounds like a problem with About time.... -Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Gagnon" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:53 PM Subject: Re: About time issue > --- Frank Condon wrote: > > > Hi Richard: > > > > Try setting your time zone to Morroco. Great Britain goes on daylight > > savings time the first Sunday in April. Morroco stays at UTC all of the time. > > > > Regards, > > > > Frank Condon > > "Experimental data collected and analyzed for its hidden message is > > considered preliminary until proven otherwise" > > Hi Frank > > That works. My mistake, I thought UTC never changed. > > Richard > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more > http://tax.yahoo.com > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: About time issue From: Richard Gagnon richg_1998@......... Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 22:33:51 -0800 (PST) Hi Larry I wondered about that. The About Time site says do not send Emails inquiring about issues so I thought I would try the psn since I plan to have a Leman operational some day. I will go with a gps and your a/d board in the future. I would hope to also have 24 hour time in the future. Richard Thank you. --- Larry Cochrane wrote: > UTC does not change between daylight savings time and standard time. Sounds > like a problem with About time.... > > -Larry Cochrane > Redwood City, PSN > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Gagnon" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:53 PM > Subject: Re: About time issue > > > > --- Frank Condon wrote: > > > > > Hi Richard: > > > > > > Try setting your time zone to Morroco. Great Britain goes on daylight > > > savings time the first Sunday in April. Morroco stays at UTC all of the > time. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Frank Condon > > > "Experimental data collected and analyzed for its hidden message is > > > considered preliminary until proven otherwise" > > > > Hi Frank > > > > That works. My mistake, I thought UTC never changed. > > > > Richard > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more > > http://tax.yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: A Free Mass seismometer From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 07:45:52 -0500 All, I have been thinking ( a dangerous thing, to be sure) about a seismometer that has no natural frequency. Perhaps (probably) this idea is not new, but never-the-less, here it is: Imagine, if you will, a stack of, say 1" diameter aluminum tubes about 10 inches long. There are 9 tubes, two on the bottom, three in the next layer up, and four in the top layer. These tubes are stacked like bowling pins with the head pin missing. Now imagine that, on the sides and top of this structure there are pieces of glass so that the sides are smooth, relatively accurate, surfaces. The top is not so important, and might be a piece of aluminum plate instead of glass. Now fill the tubes with something which has mass, perhaps a mixture of sand and epoxy (search the web for "Granitan" and you'll get the idea). Now comes the hard part. Imagine this assembly of tubes supported on four circular slices of aluminum arranged two on each side, flat against the outward sloping surfaces of the glass plates. The outside flat surfaces of the aluminum disks. have countersunk holes that hold balls so that the disks can align themselves with the glass surfaces. The balls, in turn are located in stationary mounting plates that are attached to the non-moving base of the structure. The surface of the aluminum disks which face the glass is recessed about .001" leaving a smooth, lapped rim about 0.100" wide touching the glass. In the center of the recess is a small hole, say about .062" which is cross drilled to a small air fitting, I think the common size is 10-32 (Look in an aquarium shop for this.) All four aluminum disks are the same, and they are connected together with aquarium air hose. (The more flexible, the better.) This hose is also connected to an aquarium air pump. When the pump is turned on - Voila! The tube structure (The free mass) will rise slightly on an air film which will form between the aluminum disks and the glass, and the mass will float freely, with zero static coefficient of friction. In fact, it will slide off of the air bearings and fall on the floor if you are not careful. Now imagine this free mass with a voice coil or other driver attached to it at one end, and the transducer of your choice attached to it at the other. Imagine also, a set of leveling screws between the base and good old mother earth. There are enhancements possible, including an air receiver and filter to reduce air pressure pulsations and dirt (although the pressure pulsations are far above our frequency of interest, and the mass can't follow them anyway.), and a temperature control system. (Always include a temperature control system. Always.) Now the caveats. I have not built the system just described, but I have built many air bearing devices, so I'm pretty sure of my technology here. The tube and glass structure is just my way of building an accurate prismatic shape in my garage. Other approaches are possible. Please jump in and critique my ideas here. You can't hurt my feelings, and the device doesn't exist, so it can be changed with a thought. I hereby declare the season open. Dave... __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: A Free Mass seismometer From: beezaur beezaur@.......... Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 09:45:03 -0800 Dave, Is there any force keeping the free mass centered? Air flow changes? If so then you are back to having a natural period. I'm not a fluids guy, but I wonder if small scale turbulence in air flow would cause an unpredictable wandering and the fall to the floor you mention. Is there an active way to keep the thing centered, maybe radiation pressure from lasers? Any active correction could be measured and removed from data. Scott David H. Youden wrote: > All, > > I have been thinking ( a dangerous thing, to be sure) about a > seismometer that has no natural frequency. Perhaps (probably) this idea > is not new, but never-the-less, here it is: > > Imagine, if you will, a stack of, say 1" diameter aluminum tubes . . . -- A day without math is like a day without sunshine. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: A Free Mass seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 15:34:04 EST In a message dated 05/04/03, dyouden@......... writes: > I have been thinking about a seismometer that has no natural frequency. > Hi Dave, > Imagine, if you will, a stack of, say 1" diameter aluminum tubes about 10 > inches long. There are 9 tubes, two on the bottom, three in the next layer > I would rather not thank you! Why make it extremely complicated, when you can make it dead simple? Take a circular piece of plate glass and drill a hole in the middle for the air supply. Support the outside edges on a circular metal structure with three levelling screws. Use another, but smaller diameter sheet of plate glass or of Al etc. more or less centrally placed. This will need to have the bottom surface modified, possibly by sticking on foil or by etching, to give either a circular or a clover leaf shaped air bearing. Fit the top of the plate with two pairs of Maxwell coil + magnet force actuators, at right angles and a shadow type capacitative distance transducer and you might be 'in business'! See http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/tutorial.html You might need to lap polish the two glass plates together with fine carborundum and rouge, rather like you do when lapping optical flats, to get a near perfect fit. It is usually inviting trouble to put unscreened magnets on a seismic mass, but you could probably get away with small opposed magnet pairs. You might need an additional pair at some point on the periphery of the disk, to prevent rotation. In operation, the top disk is floated using the air supply at the centre of the base plate. There is no wiring or tube connections needed for the armature disk. The distance transducer measures the deflections in the X and Y directions and feeds back PID signals to the coil pairs to keep the plate centralised. You need maybe 1 to 2 lb mass total to keep down the inherent noise. > The surface of the aluminum disks which face the glass is recessed about > .001" leaving a smooth, lapped rim about 0.100" wide touching the glass. In > the centre of the recess is a small hole, say about .062" which is cross > drilled to a small air fitting, I think the common size is 10-32 (Look in > an aquarium shop for this.) This hose is also connected to an aquarium air > pump. When the pump is turned on - Voila! The free mass will rise slightly > on an air film which will form between the > plates, and the mass will float freely, with zero static coefficient of > Can you give us references for the design of air bearings, please? I know that they are designed as overdamped pneumatic LCR circuits, but I don't have any formulae, etc. They will need very careful design. While air bearings have zero static friction, they may have small dynamic forces. We used to use a glass plate surrounded by spring wires and heavy metal 'pucks' to demonstrate the laws of mechanics. Each puck had a gas tight chamber which was filled with dry ice. This slowly sublimated and provided the gas flow for the bearing underneath. However, there was always a very slight 'dither' on them. I do not know if this was due to varying gas pressure, to inadequate sublimation control, to poor bearing design, to variations in the surface of the glass plate, or to turbulent flow. > There are enhancements possible, including an air receiver and filter to > reduce air pressure pulsations and dirt (although the pressure pulsations > are far above our frequency of interest, and the mass can't follow them > anyway) and a temperature control system. (Always include a temperature > You will need a very stable and clean air supply. The air bearings will need to be run with laminar flow, or turbulence noise and random forces will be generated. If the rig could be totally enclosed, the air could be filtered and circulated. The pumping pressure fluctuations will need a considerable amount of smoothing. The mass will tend to follow pressure fluctuations, whatever the frequency - it depends directly on the gas pressure to elevate it! I would be concerned about possible transitions from laminar to turbulent gas flow in the bearings. You might need to use a multiple tube peristaltic pump. One reason why professional systems do not often use temperature control, is that they are usually buried / installed below ground level. Once you get below about 1 m depth in most rock formations, the daily temperature change is reduced to milli degree levels. It is very difficult indeed = expensive to get anywhere near this sort of stability using active thermostatic control. > I hereby declare the season open. It would be an interesting experiment to try. You might initially use simple differential optical sensors. A pair of VTD34 7.4 sq mm photodiodes and an OPA2134 opamp can give about 20 nm resolution at 10 Hz. If this works, you can invest in capacitative transducers which give better than 1 nm resolution. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 05/04/= 03, dyouden@......... writes:

I have been thinking about=20= a seismometer that has no natural frequency. Perhaps (probably) this idea is= not new, but never-the-less, here it is:


Hi Dave,

Imagine, if you will, a sta= ck of, say 1" diameter aluminum tubes about 10 inches long. There are 9 tube= s, two on the bottom, three in the next layer up, and four in the top layer.= ........


      I would rather not thank you! Why m= ake it extremely complicated, when you can make it dead simple?

      Take a circular piece of plate glas= s and drill a hole in the middle for the air supply. Support the outside edg= es on a circular metal structure with three levelling screws. Use another, b= ut smaller diameter sheet of plate glass or of Al etc. more or less centrall= y placed. This will need to have the bottom surface modified, possibly by st= icking on foil or by etching, to give either a circular or a clover leaf sha= ped air bearing. Fit the top of the plate with two pairs of Maxwell coil + m= agnet force actuators, at right angles and a shadow type capacitative distan= ce transducer and you might be 'in business'! See http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/tutoria= l.html=20
      You might need to lap polish the tw= o glass plates together with fine carborundum and rouge, rather like you do=20= when lapping optical flats, to get a near perfect fit. It is usually invitin= g trouble to put unscreened magnets on a seismic mass, but you could probabl= y get away with small opposed magnet pairs. You might need an additional pai= r at some point on the periphery of the disk, to prevent rotation.=20

      In operation, the top disk is float= ed using the air supply at the centre of the base plate. There is no wiring=20= or tube connections needed for the armature disk. The distance transducer me= asures the deflections in the X and Y directions and feeds back PID signals=20= to the coil pairs to keep the plate centralised. You need maybe 1 to 2 lb ma= ss total to keep down the inherent noise.
=20
The surface of the aluminum= disks which face the glass is recessed about .001" leaving a smooth, lapped= rim about 0.100" wide touching the glass. In the centre of the recess is a=20= small hole, say about .062" which is cross drilled to a small air fitting, I= think the common size is 10-32 (Look in an aquarium shop for this.) This ho= se is also connected to an aquarium air pump. When the pump is turned on - V= oila! The free mass will rise slightly on an air film which will form betwee= n the=20
plates, and the mass will float freely, with zero static coefficient of=20= friction.


      Can you give us references for the=20= design of air bearings, please? I know that they are designed as overdamped=20= pneumatic LCR circuits, but I don't have any formulae, etc. They will need v= ery careful design. While air bearings have zero static friction, they may h= ave small dynamic forces.=20
      We used to use a glass plate surrou= nded by spring wires and heavy metal 'pucks' to demonstrate the laws of mech= anics. Each puck had a gas tight chamber which was filled with dry ice. This= slowly sublimated and provided the gas flow for the bearing underneath. How= ever, there was always a very slight 'dither' on them. I do not know if this= was due to varying gas pressure, to inadequate sublimation control, to poor= bearing design, to variations in the surface of the glass plate, or to turb= ulent flow.   

There are enhancements poss= ible, including an air receiver and filter to reduce air pressure pulsations= and dirt (although the pressure pulsations are far above our frequency of i= nterest, and the mass can't follow them anyway) and a temperature control sy= stem. (Always include a temperature control system. Always.)


      You will need a very stable and cle= an air supply. The air bearings will need to be run with laminar flow, or tu= rbulence noise and random forces will be generated. If the rig could be tota= lly enclosed, the air could be filtered and circulated. The pumping pressure= fluctuations will need a considerable amount of smoothing. The mass will te= nd to follow pressure fluctuations, whatever the frequency - it depends dire= ctly on the gas pressure to elevate it! I would be concerned about possible=20= transitions from laminar to turbulent gas flow in the bearings. You might ne= ed to use a multiple tube peristaltic pump.

      One reason why professional systems= do not often use temperature control, is that they are usually buried / ins= talled below ground level. Once you get below about 1 m depth in most rock f= ormations, the daily temperature change is reduced to milli degree levels. I= t is very difficult indeed =3D expensive to get anywhere near this sort of s= tability using active thermostatic control.      &n= bsp; 

I hereby declare the season= open.
      It would be an interesting experime= nt to try. You might initially use simple differential optical sensors. A pa= ir of VTD34 7.4 sq mm photodiodes and an OPA2134 opamp can give about 20 nm=20= resolution at 10 Hz. If this works, you can invest in capacitative transduce= rs which give better than 1 nm resolution.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Cap's KS36000 Seismometer From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 17:23:27 -0700 Hi Bob, Glad to see that you're keeping busy in seismology! I guess once it's in your blood, there's no way to avoid it. Good luck with the KS36000. I understand it's not easy to get one going and that the manuals are critical. I wonder if any of the PSN members who got one managed to get it running? Cheers, John At 06:29 PM 4/4/2003, you wrote: >Karl and other PSN folk, > >I'm very interested in getting Cap's KS36000 seismometer. I have an abandoned >300+ foot dry well in bedrock which would be ideal for the instrument. > >The problem is logistics: I'm in Fairbanks, Alaska and the KS36000 is in >New York. >Is there anyone on the list who might be willing to help with getting it >ready to ship? >That is, if I'm the chosen recipient.... > >thanks, > >Bob Hammond >Public Seismic Network - Alaska >http://apsn.awcable.com > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the >message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Cap's KS36000 Seismometer From: hammond hammond@........... Date: Sat, 05 Apr 2003 16:29:02 -0900 John, As my good friend (who runs the Montana EQ Network) said: "You can take the guy out of seismology but you can't take the seismology out of the guy." Yes, I'd be curious to know if any of the KS36000 instruments given away by ASL are running, either with PSN members or university groups. Acquiring Cap's instrument is most likely going to be too much of a logistical problem for me to solve. And even if I did get it, I suspect it would be damaged in shipping from NY to AK. That is, if I could afford the shipping.... But, it would be cool to have one operational. It would fit right in with my LASA instrument. regards, Bob At 03:23 PM 4/5/2003, you wrote: >Hi Bob, > >Glad to see that you're keeping busy in seismology! I guess once it's in >your blood, there's no way to avoid it. > >Good luck with the KS36000. I understand it's not easy to get one going and >that the manuals are critical. I wonder if any of the PSN members who got one >managed to get it running? > >Cheers, >John > >At 06:29 PM 4/4/2003, you wrote: >>Karl and other PSN folk, >> >>I'm very interested in getting Cap's KS36000 seismometer. I have an >>abandoned >>300+ foot dry well in bedrock which would be ideal for the instrument. >> >>The problem is logistics: I'm in Fairbanks, Alaska and the KS36000 is in >>New York. >>Is there anyone on the list who might be willing to help with getting it >>ready to ship? >>That is, if I'm the chosen recipient.... >> >>thanks, >> >>Bob Hammond >>Public Seismic Network - Alaska >>http://apsn.awcable.com >> >>__________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: A Free Mass seismometer From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 06:18:00 -0400 Scott,

At 09:45 AM 4/5/03 -0800, you wrote:
Dave,

Is there any force keeping the free mass centered?  Air flow changes? If so then you are back to having a natural period.

There is no centering force other than that generated by whatever driver is installed for force feedback. Sometimes the air bearings can produce a slight decentering force, but this looks like tilt and can be compensated.


I'm not a fluids guy, but I wonder if small scale turbulence in air flow would cause an unpredictable wandering and the fall to the floor you mention.  Is there an active way to keep the thing centered, maybe radiation pressure from lasers?  Any active correction could be measured and removed from data.

The air flow is laminar, and measurements that I have made on similar, far more expensive systems indicate no change in the noise at the picometer level when the bearings are turned on. The fall to the floor is caused by tilt, as these things are, as you can imagine, extremely sensitive to tilt.


Scott

David H. Youden wrote:
All,
I have been thinking ( a dangerous thing, to be sure) about a seismometer that has no natural frequency. Perhaps (probably) this idea is not new, but never-the-less, here it is:
Imagine, if you will, a stack of, say 1" diameter aluminum tubes . . ..
--
A day without math is like a day without sunshine.

__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.
Subject: Re: A Free Mass seismometer From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 06:30:30 -0400 Chris,

I guess complexity depends upon personal viewpoint to some degree. What you have described seems complex to me. I have built systems similar to what you describe and the complexity springs from having to prevent rotation.

My stack of tubes originates from the challenge of making a relatively accurate prismatic shape without resorting to machine tools, which most of us don't have. Commercial tubing is pretty repeatable stuff, although not especially accurate.

At any rate, it doesn't matter, make what is easy for you.

I have built a commercial system, with a moving mass of about 10 Kg. (It cost about $800,000) with 0.3 nanometer laser position feedback. I have never thought of looking for seismic effects on this device, but I'll bet that they are there. That particular device is used for metrology, and has an overall position accuracy of less than 10 nanometers.

The noise from air bearings is low enough so that I have been able to machine 10 Angstrom RMS surface finishes in aluminum on these bearings.

As for web references, I don't know of any at the moment, but I'll look. There is not much published on the topic, but I'll try to generate a reading list in the next couple of days.

At 03:34 PM 4/5/03 -0500, you wrote:
In a message dated 05/04/03, dyouden@......... writes:

I have been thinking about a seismometer that has no natural frequency. Perhaps (probably) this idea is not new, but never-the-less, here it is:


Hi Dave,

Imagine, if you will, a stack of, say 1" diameter aluminum tubes about 10 inches long. There are 9 tubes, two on the bottom, three in the next layer up, and four in the top layer........


      I would rather not thank you! Why make it extremely complicated, when you can make it dead simple?

      Take a circular piece of plate glass and drill a hole in the middle for the air supply. Support the outside edges on a circular metal structure with three levelling screws. Use another, but smaller diameter sheet of plate glass or of Al etc. more or less centrally placed. This will need to have the bottom surface modified, possibly by sticking on foil or by etching, to give either a circular or a clover leaf shaped air bearing. Fit the top of the plate with two pairs of Maxwell coil + magnet force actuators, at right angles and a shadow type capacitative distance transducer and you might be 'in business'! See http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/tutorial.html
      You might need to lap polish the two glass plates together with fine carborundum and rouge, rather like you do when lapping optical flats, to get a near perfect fit. It is usually inviting trouble to put unscreened magnets on a seismic mass, but you could probably get away with small opposed magnet pairs. You might need an additional pair at some point on the periphery of the disk, to prevent rotation.

      In operation, the top disk is floated using the air supply at the centre of the base plate. There is no wiring or tube connections needed for the armature disk. The distance transducer measures the deflections in the X and Y directions and feeds back PID signals to the coil pairs to keep the plate centralised. You need maybe 1 to 2 lb mass total to keep down the inherent noise.

The surface of the aluminum disks which face the glass is recessed about .001" leaving a smooth, lapped rim about 0.100" wide touching the glass. In the centre of the recess is a small hole, say about .062" which is cross drilled to a small air fitting, I think the common size is 10-32 (Look in an aquarium shop for this.) This hose is also connected to an aquarium air pump. When the pump is turned on - Voila! The free mass will rise slightly on an air film which will form between the
plates, and the mass will float freely, with zero static coefficient of friction.


      Can you give us references for the design of air bearings, please? I know that they are designed as overdamped pneumatic LCR circuits, but I don't have any formulae, etc. They will need very careful design. While air bearings have zero static friction, they may have small dynamic forces.
      We used to use a glass plate surrounded by spring wires and heavy metal 'pucks' to demonstrate the laws of mechanics. Each puck had a gas tight chamber which was filled with dry ice. This slowly sublimated and provided the gas flow for the bearing underneath. However, there was always a very slight 'dither' on them. I do not know if this was due to varying gas pressure, to inadequate sublimation control, to poor bearing design, to variations in the surface of the glass plate, or to turbulent flow.   

There are enhancements possible, including an air receiver and filter to reduce air pressure pulsations and dirt (although the pressure pulsations are far above our frequency of interest, and the mass can't follow them anyway) and a temperature control system. (Always include a temperature control system. Always.)


      You will need a very stable and clean air supply. The air bearings will need to be run with laminar flow, or turbulence noise and random forces will be generated. If the rig could be totally enclosed, the air could be filtered and circulated. The pumping pressure fluctuations will need a considerable amount of smoothing. The mass will tend to follow pressure fluctuations, whatever the frequency - it depends directly on the gas pressure to elevate it! I would be concerned about possible transitions from laminar to turbulent gas flow in the bearings. You might need to use a multiple tube peristaltic pump.

      One reason why professional systems do not often use temperature control, is that they are usually buried / installed below ground level. Once you get below about 1 m depth in most rock formations, the daily temperature change is reduced to milli degree levels. It is very difficult indeed = expensive to get anywhere near this sort of stability using active thermostatic control.        

I hereby declare the season open.


      It would be an interesting experiment to try. You might initially use simple differential optical sensors. A pair of VTD34 7.4 sq mm photodiodes and an OPA2134 opamp can give about 20 nm resolution at 10 Hz. If this works, you can invest in capacitative transducers which give better than 1 nm resolution.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: A2DMAX and Radiosky pipe From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 06:41:10 -0400 All, I said earlier that I had ordered the subject material and would report on my experiences. Here's the report. I ordered the complete kit of parts for this device, but elected to use the free (single channel) version of the software until I had things working. Unfortunately that has never happened. The kit arrived OK, and was simple enough to build. Once built, however, it simply did not work. I have tried three different computers, reconfigured parallel ports until I'm sick of it, and fussed over every aspect of the rig. I have never lost an integrated circuit to static, and I don't believe that this one has died that way. E-mail to Radiosky publishing is returned with an unable to deliver message. So there you have it. A total failure and a waste of $50. My advice: Don't waste your money. Dave... __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: A Free Mass seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 12:38:40 EDT In a message dated 06/04/03, dyouden@......... writes: Hi Dave, Thanks for the reply. > I guess complexity depends upon personal viewpoint to some degree. What you > have described seems complex to me. I have built systems similar to what > you describe and the complexity springs from having to prevent rotation. ? It is two flat sheets of glass with 4 pairs of small magnets and two strips of metal mounted horizontally on top of the top sheet --- it's not too complicated! I would expect it to be rather easier to prevent rotation than to do the linear positioning. > My stack of tubes originates from the challenge of making a relatively > accurate prismatic shape without resorting to machine tools, which most of > us don't have. Commercial tubing is pretty repeatable stuff, although not > especially accurate. I have very considerable difficulty in visualising the apparatus that you are trying to describe. Is there any chance of you putting a hand drawn sketch on the Web, please? In my experience, commercial tubing is not usually very accurate and very often it is not quite circular. Hard drawn seamless tube is best. If you just want a lot of mass, why not use solid bar? I am trying to figure out how you maintain the alignment with four pads... > I have built a commercial system, with a moving mass of about 10 Kg. (It > cost about $800,000) with 0.3 nanometer laser position feedback. I have > never thought of looking for seismic effects on this device, but I'll bet > that they are there. That particular device is used for metrology, and has > an overall position accuracy of less than 10 nanometers. I am very curious to know why you used an optical measurement system? Getting down below about 10 nm is hard work optically. What frequency range was this over? Resolving 0.1 nano metre is not difficult or expensive with a linear capacitative detector. However, when you get down to these dimensions, thermal expansion effects are dominant and you can only stabilise the centre of position of the detector. Even fused silica has an expansion coefficient of 0.2 ppm / C Deg > The noise from air bearings is low enough so that I have been able to > machine 10 Angstrom RMS surface finishes in aluminum on these bearings. Great. My experience with air bearings has not been quite so good. What precautions do you take with the air supply? What pressure, filters, flow restrictors and pressure regulators do you use / propose for this? Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 06/04/= 03, dyouden@......... writes:

Hi Dave,

      Thanks for the reply.

I guess complexity depends=20= upon personal viewpoint to some degree. What you have described seems comple= x to me. I have built systems similar to what you describe and the complexit= y springs from having to prevent rotation.
      ? It is two flat sheets= of glass with 4 pairs of small magnets and two strips of metal mounted hori= zontally on top of the top sheet --- it's not too complicated! I would expec= t it to be rather easier to prevent rotation than to do the linear positioni= ng.=20

My stack of tub= es originates from the challenge of making a relatively accurate prismatic s= hape without resorting to machine tools, which most of us don't have. Commer= cial tubing is pretty repeatable stuff, although not especially accurate.
      I have very considerabl= e difficulty in visualising the apparatus that you are trying to describe. I= s there any chance of you putting a hand drawn sketch on the Web, please? In= my experience, commercial tubing is not usually very accurate and very ofte= n it is not quite circular. Hard drawn seamless tube is best. If you just wa= nt a lot of mass, why not use solid bar? I am trying to figure out how you m= aintain the alignment with four pads...

I have built a=20= commercial system, with a moving mass of about 10 Kg. (It cost about $800,00= 0) with 0.3 nanometer laser position feedback. I have never thought of looki= ng for seismic effects on this device, but I'll bet that they are there. Tha= t particular device is used for metrology, and has an overall position accur= acy of less than 10 nanometers.
      I am very curious to kn= ow why you used an optical measurement system? Getting down below about 10 n= m is hard work optically. What frequency range was this over?
      Resolving 0.1 nano metre is not dif= ficult or expensive with a linear capacitative detector. However, when you g= et down to these dimensions, thermal expansion effects are dominant and you=20= can only stabilise the centre of position of the detector. Even fused silica= has an expansion coefficient of 0.2 ppm / C Deg     

The noise from=20= air bearings is low enough so that I have been able to machine 10 Angstrom R= MS surface finishes in aluminum on these bearings.
    Great. My experience with air bearings has not=20= been quite so good. What precautions do you take with the air supply? What p= ressure, filters, flow restrictors and pressure regulators do you use / prop= ose for this?=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: A Free Mass seismometer From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 06:07:34 -0400 Hi Chris, Sorry to be slow responding to you, but there is work to be done. For information on high resolution stage interferometry go to: http://www.zygo.com/ Select semiconductor, stage position, zmi systems, and read all about it. The stuff I usually use is the ZMI 2000 which costs about $9000 per axis. All that for one more fuzzy digit. More later, gotta go. Dave... At 12:38 PM 4/6/03 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 06/04/03, dyouden@......... writes: > >Hi Dave, > > Thanks for the reply. > >>I guess complexity depends upon personal viewpoint to some degree. What >>you have described seems complex to me. I have built systems similar to >>what you describe and the complexity springs from having to prevent rotation. > > > ? It is two flat sheets of glass with 4 pairs of small magnets and > two strips of metal mounted horizontally on top of the top sheet --- it's > not too complicated! I would expect it to be rather easier to prevent > rotation than to do the linear positioning. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: A Free Mass seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 07:56:27 EDT In a message dated 08/04/03, dyouden@......... writes: > For information on high resolution stage interferometry go to: > http://www.zygo.com/ > Select semiconductor, stage position, zmi systems, and read all about it. Hi Dave, There is an excellent introductory document which will probably tell most folks more than they ever wanted to know about optical distance measurement using the wavelength of light, exactly how it is done and what the problems are. There are a lot of diagrams. This Technical Paper is in the section ZMI systems. "High-resolution, High-speed, Low Data Age Uncertainty, Heterodyne Displacement Measuring Interferometer Electronics". (149 k) I can see why these systems are so expensive. The max range given in metres is very impressive. Fortunately, we only need to measure distances of maybe 1 mm for seismometers and less for feedback systems, so capacitative detectors can cope with the range and give an order of magnitude greater resolution. However, my comment that optical systems which depend on wavelength need complex = expensive systems to get below 1/2 wavelenght seems to be accurate enough. Thanks Dave. I found it very instructive. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 08/04/03, dyouden@......... writes:
For information on high res= olution stage interferometry go to:  http://www.zygo.com/
Select semiconductor, stage position, zmi systems, and read all about it= ..


Hi Dave,

      There is an excellent introductory=20= document which will probably tell most folks more than they ever wanted to k= now about optical distance measurement using the wavelength of light, exactl= y how it is done and what the problems are. There are a lot of diagrams.
      This Technical Paper is in the sect= ion ZMI systems. "High-resolution, High-speed, Low Data Age= Uncertainty, Heterodyne Displacement Measuring Interferometer Electronics".= (149 k) =20
      I can see why these sys= tems are so expensive. The max range given in metres is very impressive. For= tunately, we only need to measure distances of maybe 1 mm for seismometers a= nd less for feedback systems, so capacitative detectors can cope with the ra= nge and give an order of magnitude greater resolution.=20
      However, my comment that optical sy= stems which depend on wavelength need complex =3D expensive systems to get b= elow 1/2 wavelenght seems to be accurate enough.
      Thanks Dave. I found it very instru= ctive.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Intrusion Sensors From: "Michael King" Mike@........................ Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:09:12 -0700 I am designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the country = illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the American = Border Patrol. Some of yo may have heard of us. I am looking for a = good circuit that uses very little power and has little noise but = amplifies alot. If anyone can help me it would be appreciated and you = would be helping our country guard it's borders. Michael S. King Technical Director American Border Patrol
I am designing intrusion sensors to = detect people=20 entering the country illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical = director=20 of the American Border Patrol.  Some of yo may have heard of = us.  I am=20 looking for a good circuit that uses very little power and has little = noise but=20 amplifies alot.  If anyone can help me it would be appreciated = and you=20 would be helping our country guard it's borders.
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical = Director
American=20 Border Patrol
Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: Henry Bland henry@............... Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 16:47:52 -0600 Michael King wrote: > I am designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the country > illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the American > Border Patrol. Some of yo may have heard of us. I am looking for a > good circuit that uses very little power and has little noise but > amplifies alot. If anyone can help me it would be appreciated and you > would be helping our country guard it's borders. We use LT1800 chips (www.linear.com) for our low-power work Personally, I would stick to using dogs rather than electronics to detect intruders. They're generally better at discriminating between people noise and background noise. Cheers, -Henry Bland CREWES, University of Calgary __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:01:10 EDT In a message dated 08/04/03, Mike@........................ writes: > I am designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the country > illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the American > Border Patrol. Hi there Michael, There are several low noise, low power opamps available. To be of more help we need to know what sensors and impedance you are using and what power supplies are available. You may also have to consider filters and communication systems. There are usually several used Military systems on Ebay, geophones + radios. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 08/04/= 03, Mike@........................ writes:

I am designing intrusion se= nsors to detect people entering the country illegally in southern AZ. I am t= he technical director of the American Border Patrol.  


Hi there Michael,

      There are several low noise, low po= wer opamps available. To be of more help we need to know what sensors and im= pedance you are using and what power supplies are available. You may also ha= ve to consider filters and communication systems. There are usually several=20= used Military systems on Ebay, geophones + radios.

      Regards,=20

      Chris Chapman=20
Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: "Mauro Mariotti" mariotti@......... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:56:11 +0200 Hi Mr. King, I think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead of what amplifier use. Geophones have a limited detection range and not detect a person that eventually walk softly. It could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to bury something near the sensor. Probably a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along the = border that could be long 10 - 20 meters or more. Then you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity when someone walk over it. Just an idea... regards Mauro ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael King=20 To: PSN-L@................. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:09 AM Subject: Intrusion Sensors I am designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the country = illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the American = Border Patrol. Some of yo may have heard of us. I am looking for a = good circuit that uses very little power and has little noise but = amplifies alot. If anyone can help me it would be appreciated and you = would be helping our country guard it's borders. Michael S. King Technical Director American Border Patrol
Hi Mr. King,
 
I think that the major problem is what = sensor to=20 use instead of
what amplifier use.
Geophones have a limited detection = range and not=20 detect a person
that eventually walk = softly.
It could detect a running animal = instead or an=20 animal trying to bury
something near the sensor.
Probably a better sensor is a = pressurized rubber=20 pipe buried along the border
that could be long 10 - 20 meters or=20 more.
Then you can measure the pressure = variation at one=20 extremity when
someone walk over it.
 
Just an idea...
 
regards
Mauro
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael King
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 = 12:09=20 AM
Subject: Intrusion = Sensors

I am designing intrusion sensors to = detect people=20 entering the country illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical = director of the American Border Patrol.  Some of yo may have = heard of=20 us.  I am looking for a good circuit that uses very little power = and has=20 little noise but amplifies alot.  If anyone can help me it = would be=20 appreciated and you would be helping our country guard it's=20 borders.
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical = Director
American=20 Border Patrol
Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: "Mauro Mariotti" mariotti@......... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 08:56:11 +0200 Hi Mr. King, I think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead of what amplifier use. Geophones have a limited detection range and not detect a person that eventually walk softly. It could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to bury something near the sensor. Probably a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along the = border that could be long 10 - 20 meters or more. Then you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity when someone walk over it. Just an idea... regards Mauro ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael King=20 To: PSN-L@................. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 12:09 AM Subject: Intrusion Sensors I am designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the country = illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the American = Border Patrol. Some of yo may have heard of us. I am looking for a = good circuit that uses very little power and has little noise but = amplifies alot. If anyone can help me it would be appreciated and you = would be helping our country guard it's borders. Michael S. King Technical Director American Border Patrol
Hi Mr. King,
 
I think that the major problem is what = sensor to=20 use instead of
what amplifier use.
Geophones have a limited detection = range and not=20 detect a person
that eventually walk = softly.
It could detect a running animal = instead or an=20 animal trying to bury
something near the sensor.
Probably a better sensor is a = pressurized rubber=20 pipe buried along the border
that could be long 10 - 20 meters or=20 more.
Then you can measure the pressure = variation at one=20 extremity when
someone walk over it.
 
Just an idea...
 
regards
Mauro
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael King
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 = 12:09=20 AM
Subject: Intrusion = Sensors

I am designing intrusion sensors to = detect people=20 entering the country illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical = director of the American Border Patrol.  Some of yo may have = heard of=20 us.  I am looking for a good circuit that uses very little power = and has=20 little noise but amplifies alot.  If anyone can help me it = would be=20 appreciated and you would be helping our country guard it's=20 borders.
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical = Director
American=20 Border Patrol
Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: John Hernlund hernlund@............ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 00:35:21 -0700 On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:56 PM, Mauro Mariotti wrote: > Hi Mr. King, > I think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead of > what amplifier use. > Geophones have a limited detection range and not detect a person > that eventually walk softly. > It could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to bury > something near the sensor. > Probably a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along the > border > that could be long 10 - 20 meters or more. > Then you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity when > someone walk over it. That would take a lot of pipe...but maybe a better idea for sensors. I talked to an army guy who once did seismic sensors in the first Iraq war. They have (of course!) an acronym for this job, though I don't remember it...I don't think he even remembered what it stood for. He told me they are mostly designed to detect artillery sources, and combined with radar methods (he called it fire-finding radar, or something like that) pin point the location of an enemy's artillery and then be able to fire back at the correct position. He also said that it could pick up large vehicle convoys or even people on foot when they were very numerous and fairly close. What works in the Army tends not to be the case along the AZ border, which is run by coyotes hauling mostly smaller groups of people on foot...some times abandoning large numbers of them in the middle of the desert leading to hundreds of deaths from heat exhaustion, etc.. On a number of occasions I've run across a taxi looking for fares in the middle of the desert! In a few border towns there have been incidents of thousands of people lining up along the border, and then crossing all at once...thus overwhelming the border patrol...but not much is able to stop this from happening. The worst is the drug runners who are almost always armed and quite willing to shoot first and see who it is later...this may account for the low morale in the border patrol in some areas, since quite a few of them have been killed. No doubt about it, the lax border enforcement in the past decade in Arizona has caused this to be the main conduit for illegal cross-border activity in the US. It has brought the Mexican mafia into Phoenix, where they took control of much of the illegal activity there. They are a bold and brutal organization, and even wear clothing, drive trucks, etc. in a uniform way that announces who they are; i.e. their presence and lack of fear. A friend of mine, a Phoenix cop, lost his partner when a group of them telephoned the police and laid a trap...apparently just for "fun." So no doubt about it, this is a serious problem. Dealing with it is not trivial, and the complexities involved are mind-boggling. Arizona is the sixth largest state in the US, and contains 193 separate (and unsettled) mountain ranges that really makes it possible for much to happen off the beaten track. But there is always room for innovations. Some cities have set up microphones to detect gun shot locations before the inevitable 911 call. People need to just keep thinking and being creative, and a solution could present itself. Cheers! John On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:56 PM, Mauro Mariotti wrote: ArialHi Mr. King, ArialI think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead of Arialwhat amplifier use. ArialGeophones have a limited detection range and not detect a person Arialthat eventually walk softly. ArialIt could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to bury Arialsomething near the sensor. ArialProbably a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along the border Arialthat could be long 10 - 20 meters or more. ArialThen you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity when Arialsomeone walk over it. That would take a lot of pipe...but maybe a better idea for sensors. I talked to an army guy who once did seismic sensors in the first Iraq war. They have (of course!) an acronym for this job, though I don't remember it...I don't think he even remembered what it stood for. He told me they are mostly designed to detect artillery sources, and combined with radar methods (he called it fire-finding radar, or something like that) pin point the location of an enemy's artillery and then be able to fire back at the correct position. He also said that it could pick up large vehicle convoys or even people on foot when they were very numerous and fairly close. What works in the Army tends not to be the case along the AZ border, which is run by coyotes hauling mostly smaller groups of people on foot...some times abandoning large numbers of them in the middle of the desert leading to hundreds of deaths from heat exhaustion, etc.. On a number of occasions I've run across a taxi looking for fares in the middle of the desert! In a few border towns there have been incidents of thousands of people lining up along the border, and then crossing all at once...thus overwhelming the border patrol...but not much is able to stop this from happening. The worst is the drug runners who are almost always armed and quite willing to shoot first and see who it is later...this may account for the low morale in the border patrol in some areas, since quite a few of them have been killed. No doubt about it, the lax border enforcement in the past decade in Arizona has caused this to be the main conduit for illegal cross-border activity in the US. It has brought the Mexican mafia into Phoenix, where they took control of much of the illegal activity there. They are a bold and brutal organization, and even wear clothing, drive trucks, etc. in a uniform way that announces who they are; i.e. their presence and lack of fear. A friend of mine, a Phoenix cop, lost his partner when a group of them telephoned the police and laid a trap...apparently just for "fun." So no doubt about it, this is a serious problem. Dealing with it is not trivial, and the complexities involved are mind-boggling. Arizona is the sixth largest state in the US, and contains 193 separate (and unsettled) mountain ranges that really makes it possible for much to happen off the beaten track. But there is always room for innovations. Some cities have set up microphones to detect gun shot locations before the inevitable 911 call. People need to just keep thinking and being creative, and a solution could present itself. Cheers! John Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: "Mauro Mariotti" mariotti@......... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:35:55 +0200 John, agreed a lot of pipe would be needed. But also a lot of seismic sensors if they would be used. I think it depends on what kind of protection Mr King is looking for. A standard 4.5Hz geophones can detect motion of a human body=20 walking normally at about 5-10 meters but not more and not at all if he is walking softly. The cost of a 50 meters of rubber pipe is small if compared to the cost of a single geophones that cannot pick that range. You have to consider that spacing geophones at 50 meters (to be large) you will need anyway 50 meters or more of twisted cable to lead the signal to a sort of peamplifier or digitizer for=20 analysis. If I don't remember bad there should also some sort of piezo wires that could be useful for the same pourposes but obviously several km of piezo wire would be very expensive. Regards Mauro ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Hernlund=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:35 AM Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:56 PM, Mauro Mariotti wrote: Hi Mr. King, I think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead of what amplifier use. Geophones have a limited detection range and not detect a person that eventually walk softly. It could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to bury something near the sensor. Probably a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along = the border that could be long 10 - 20 meters or more. Then you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity when someone walk over it. That would take a lot of pipe...but maybe a better idea for sensors. I = talked to an army guy who once did seismic sensors in the first Iraq = war. They have (of course!) an acronym for this job, though I don't = remember it...I don't think he even remembered what it stood for. He = told me they are mostly designed to detect artillery sources, and = combined with radar methods (he called it fire-finding radar, or = something like that) pin point the location of an enemy's artillery and = then be able to fire back at the correct position. He also said that it = could pick up large vehicle convoys or even people on foot when they = were very numerous and fairly close.=20 What works in the Army tends not to be the case along the AZ border, = which is run by coyotes hauling mostly smaller groups of people on = foot...some times abandoning large numbers of them in the middle of the = desert leading to hundreds of deaths from heat exhaustion, etc.. On a = number of occasions I've run across a taxi looking for fares in the = middle of the desert! In a few border towns there have been incidents of = thousands of people lining up along the border, and then crossing all at = once...thus overwhelming the border patrol...but not much is able to = stop this from happening. The worst is the drug runners who are almost = always armed and quite willing to shoot first and see who it is = later...this may account for the low morale in the border patrol in some = areas, since quite a few of them have been killed. No doubt about it, = the lax border enforcement in the past decade in Arizona has caused this = to be the main conduit for illegal cross-border activity in the US. It = has brought the Mexican mafia into Phoenix, where they took control of = much of the illegal activity there. They are a bold and brutal = organization, and even wear clothing, drive trucks, etc. in a uniform = way that announces who they are; i.e. their presence and lack of fear. A = friend of mine, a Phoenix cop, lost his partner when a group of them = telephoned the police and laid a trap...apparently just for "fun." So no doubt about it, this is a serious problem. Dealing with it is = not trivial, and the complexities involved are mind-boggling. Arizona is = the sixth largest state in the US, and contains 193 separate (and = unsettled) mountain ranges that really makes it possible for much to = happen off the beaten track. But there is always room for innovations. = Some cities have set up microphones to detect gun shot locations before = the inevitable 911 call. People need to just keep thinking and being = creative, and a solution could present itself. Cheers! John
John,
 
agreed a lot of pipe would be = needed.
But also a lot of seismic sensors if = they would be=20 used.
 
I think it depends on what kind of = protection Mr=20 King is looking for.
A standard 4.5Hz geophones can detect = motion of a=20 human body
walking normally at about 5-10 = meters but not=20 more and not at all if
he is walking softly.
The cost of a 50 meters of rubber pipe = is small if=20 compared to the
cost of a single geophones that cannot = pick that=20 range.
You have to consider that spacing = geophones at 50=20 meters
(to be large) you will need anyway 50 = meters or=20 more of twisted
cable to lead the signal to a sort of = peamplifier=20 or digitizer for
analysis.
 
If I don't remember bad there should = also some sort=20 of piezo wires
that could be useful for the same = pourposes but=20 obviously
several km of piezo wire would be very=20 expensive.
 
Regards
Mauro
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Hernlund
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 = 9:35=20 AM
Subject: Re: Intrusion = Sensors

On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:56 PM, Mauro Mariotti=20 wrote:
Hi Mr. = King,
I = think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead = of
what = amplifier use.
Geophones=20 have a limited detection range and not detect a = person
that=20 eventually walk = softly.
It=20 could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to = bury
something=20 near the sensor.
Probably=20 a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along the = border
that=20 could be long 10 - 20 meters or = more.
Then=20 you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity = when
someone=20 walk over it.

That = would take a=20 lot of pipe...but maybe a better idea for sensors. I talked to an army = guy who=20 once did seismic sensors in the first Iraq war. They have (of course!) = an=20 acronym for this job, though I don't remember it...I don't think he = even=20 remembered what it stood for. He told me they are mostly designed to = detect=20 artillery sources, and combined with radar methods (he called it = fire-finding=20 radar, or something like that) pin point the location of an enemy's = artillery=20 and then be able to fire back at the correct position. He also said = that it=20 could pick up large vehicle convoys or even people on foot when they = were very=20 numerous and fairly close.

What works in the Army tends not to = be the=20 case along the AZ border, which is run by coyotes hauling mostly = smaller=20 groups of people on foot...some times abandoning large numbers of them = in the=20 middle of the desert leading to hundreds of deaths from heat = exhaustion, etc..=20 On a number of occasions I've run across a taxi looking for fares in = the=20 middle of the desert! In a few border towns there have been incidents = of=20 thousands of people lining up along the border, and then crossing all = at=20 once...thus overwhelming the border patrol...but not much is able to = stop this=20 from happening. The worst is the drug runners who are almost always = armed and=20 quite willing to shoot first and see who it is later...this may = account for=20 the low morale in the border patrol in some areas, since quite a few = of them=20 have been killed. No doubt about it, the lax border enforcement in the = past=20 decade in Arizona has caused this to be the main conduit for illegal=20 cross-border activity in the US. It has brought the Mexican mafia into = Phoenix, where they took control of much of the illegal activity = there. They=20 are a bold and brutal organization, and even wear clothing, drive = trucks, etc.=20 in a uniform way that announces who they are; i.e. their presence and = lack of=20 fear. A friend of mine, a Phoenix cop, lost his partner when a group = of them=20 telephoned the police and laid a trap...apparently just for = "fun."

So=20 no doubt about it, this is a serious problem. Dealing with it is not = trivial,=20 and the complexities involved are mind-boggling. Arizona is the sixth = largest=20 state in the US, and contains 193 separate (and unsettled) mountain = ranges=20 that really makes it possible for much to happen off the beaten track. = But=20 there is always room for innovations. Some cities have set up = microphones to=20 detect gun shot locations before the inevitable 911 call. People need = to just=20 keep thinking and being creative, and a solution could present=20 itself.

Cheers!
John
Subject: Tiltmeter question From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 06:11:50 -0400 All, Has anyone out there ever built a tiltmeter based on a simple balance beam? What can you tell me about it? Dave... __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: Thomas W Leiper twleiper@........ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 11:01:39 -0400 I would concentrate on prevention, not detection. An electrified fence with, say a half million volts would probably work. Also, we could take a lesson from Saddam and have trenches full of burning oil... Seriously, though, I think you have a big challenge. Seismic detection of people walking at any significant distance would be next to impossible because, even though you might achieve some kind of amazing sensitivity, you would never be able to decode the data and the false positive rate would be excessive. Hell, just the 6 second noise and background would cover over everything but King Kong. I think some kind of visual system would be able to monitor huge areas at little expense, especially compared to seismic sensors. A digital camera with an expansive and essentially static field of view could definitely be used along with a program to analyze the images for changes. A random change of pixels, for instance would not be indicative, however a chain of adjacent pixels that have changed would be. And, of course IR detection at night is a no-brainer. How about using R/C model planes as drones with little video cameras? I like that approach because they are noisy, which lends a preventive element. You can always fly the plane right into there head if they don't turn around. You might even get some of them to surrender! On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:35:55 +0200 "Mauro Mariotti" writes: John, agreed a lot of pipe would be needed. But also a lot of seismic sensors if they would be used. I think it depends on what kind of protection Mr King is looking for. A standard 4.5Hz geophones can detect motion of a human body walking normally at about 5-10 meters but not more and not at all if he is walking softly. The cost of a 50 meters of rubber pipe is small if compared to the cost of a single geophones that cannot pick that range. You have to consider that spacing geophones at 50 meters (to be large) you will need anyway 50 meters or more of twisted cable to lead the signal to a sort of peamplifier or digitizer for analysis. If I don't remember bad there should also some sort of piezo wires that could be useful for the same pourposes but obviously several km of piezo wire would be very expensive. Regards Mauro ----- Original Message ----- From: John Hernlund To: psn-l@.............. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:35 AM Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:56 PM, Mauro Mariotti wrote: Hi Mr. King, I think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead of what amplifier use. Geophones have a limited detection range and not detect a person that eventually walk softly. It could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to bury something near the sensor. Probably a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along the border that could be long 10 - 20 meters or more. Then you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity when someone walk over it. That would take a lot of pipe...but maybe a better idea for sensors. I talked to an army guy who once did seismic sensors in the first Iraq war. They have (of course!) an acronym for this job, though I don't remember it...I don't think he even remembered what it stood for. He told me they are mostly designed to detect artillery sources, and combined with radar methods (he called it fire-finding radar, or something like that) pin point the location of an enemy's artillery and then be able to fire back at the correct position. He also said that it could pick up large vehicle convoys or even people on foot when they were very numerous and fairly close. What works in the Army tends not to be the case along the AZ border, which is run by coyotes hauling mostly smaller groups of people on foot...some times abandoning large numbers of them in the middle of the desert leading to hundreds of deaths from heat exhaustion, etc.. On a number of occasions I've run across a taxi looking for fares in the middle of the desert! In a few border towns there have been incidents of thousands of people lining up along the border, and then crossing all at once...thus overwhelming the border patrol...but not much is able to stop this from happening. The worst is the drug runners who are almost always armed and quite willing to shoot first and see who it is later...this may account for the low morale in the border patrol in some areas, since quite a few of them have been killed. No doubt about it, the lax border enforcement in the past decade in Arizona has caused this to be the main conduit for illegal cross-border activity in the US. It has brought the Mexican mafia into Phoenix, where they took control of much of the illegal activity there. They are a bold and brutal organization, and even wear clothing, drive trucks, etc. in a uniform way that announces who they are; i.e. their presence and lack of fear. A friend of mine, a Phoenix cop, lost his partner when a group of them telephoned the police and laid a trap...apparently just for "fun." So no doubt about it, this is a serious problem. Dealing with it is not trivial, and the complexities involved are mind-boggling. Arizona is the sixth largest state in the US, and contains 193 separate (and unsettled) mountain ranges that really makes it possible for much to happen off the beaten track. But there is always room for innovations. Some cities have set up microphones to detect gun shot locations before the inevitable 911 call. People need to just keep thinking and being creative, and a solution could present itself. Cheers! John
I would concentrate on prevention, not detection. An electrified
fence with, say a half million volts would probably work. Also,
we could take a lesson from Saddam and have trenches full of
burning oil...
 
Seriously, though, I think you have a big challenge. Seismic
detection of people walking at any significant distance would
be next to impossible because, even though you might achieve
some kind of amazing sensitivity, you would never be able to
decode the data and the false positive rate would be excessive.
Hell, just the 6 second noise and background would cover
over everything but King Kong.
 
I think some kind of visual system would be able to monitor
huge areas at little expense, especially compared to seismic
sensors. A digital camera with an expansive and essentially
static field of view could definitely be used along with a
program to analyze the images for changes. A random change
of pixels, for instance would not be indicative, however a
chain of adjacent pixels that have changed would be. And,
of course IR detection at night is a no-brainer.
 
How about using R/C model planes as drones with little
video cameras? I like that approach because they are noisy,
which lends a preventive element. You can always fly the
plane right into there head if they don't turn around.
 
You might even get some of them to surrender!
 
 
On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:35:55 +0200 "Mauro Mariotti" <mariotti@.........> writes:
John,
 
agreed a lot of pipe would be=20 needed.
But also a lot of seismic sensors if = they would=20 be used.
 
I think it depends on what kind of = protection Mr=20 King is looking for.
A standard 4.5Hz geophones can detect = motion of a=20 human body
walking normally at about 5-10 = meters but=20 not more and not at all if
he is walking softly.
The cost of a 50 meters of rubber pipe = is small=20 if compared to the
cost of a single geophones that cannot = pick that=20 range.
You have to consider that spacing = geophones at 50=20 meters
(to be large) you will need anyway 50 = meters or=20 more of twisted
cable to lead the signal to a sort of = peamplifier=20 or digitizer for
analysis.
 
If I don't remember bad there should = also some=20 sort of piezo wires
that could be useful for the same = pourposes but=20 obviously
several km of piezo wire would be very=20 expensive.
 
Regards
Mauro
 
 
----- Original Message -----
= From:=20 = John=20 Hernlund
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 = 9:35=20 AM
Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors

On Tuesday, April 8, 2003, at 11:56 PM, Mauro Mariotti=20 wrote:
Hi Mr. King,
I=20 think that the major problem is what sensor to use instead of
what=20 amplifier use.
Geophones=20 have a limited detection range and not detect a person
that=20 eventually walk softly.
It=20 could detect a running animal instead or an animal trying to bury
something=20 near the sensor.
Probably=20 a better sensor is a pressurized rubber pipe buried along the border<= ?/smaller>
that=20 could be long 10 - 20 meters or more.
Then=20 you can measure the pressure variation at one extremity when
someone=20 walk over it.

That would= take a=20 lot of pipe...but maybe a better idea for sensors. I talked to an army = guy=20 who once did seismic sensors in the first Iraq war. They have (of = course!)=20 an acronym for this job, though I don't remember it...I don't think he = even=20 remembered what it stood for. He told me they are mostly designed to = detect=20 artillery sources, and combined with radar methods (he called it=20 fire-finding radar, or something like that) pin point the location of = an=20 enemy's artillery and then be able to fire back at the correct position= .. He=20 also said that it could pick up large vehicle convoys or even people on= foot=20 when they were very numerous and fairly close.

What works in = the=20 Army tends not to be the case along the AZ border, which is run by = coyotes=20 hauling mostly smaller groups of people on foot...some times abandoning= =20 large numbers of them in the middle of the desert leading to hundreds = of=20 deaths from heat exhaustion, etc.. On a number of occasions I've run = across=20 a taxi looking for fares in the middle of the desert! In a few border = towns=20 there have been incidents of thousands of people lining up along the = border,=20 and then crossing all at once...thus overwhelming the border patrol...= but=20 not much is able to stop this from happening. The worst is the drug = runners=20 who are almost always armed and quite willing to shoot first and see = who it=20 is later...this may account for the low morale in the border patrol in = some=20 areas, since quite a few of them have been killed. No doubt about it, = the=20 lax border enforcement in the past decade in Arizona has caused this to= be=20 the main conduit for illegal cross-border activity in the US. It has = brought=20 the Mexican mafia into Phoenix, where they took control of much of the= =20 illegal activity there. They are a bold and brutal organization, and = even=20 wear clothing, drive trucks, etc. in a uniform way that announces who = they=20 are; i.e. their presence and lack of fear. A friend of mine, a Phoenix = cop,=20 lost his partner when a group of them telephoned the police and laid a= =20 trap...apparently just for "fun."

So no doubt about it, this is = a=20 serious problem. Dealing with it is not trivial, and the complexities=20 involved are mind-boggling. Arizona is the sixth largest state in the = US,=20 and contains 193 separate (and unsettled) mountain ranges that really = makes=20 it possible for much to happen off the beaten track. But there is = always=20 room for innovations. Some cities have set up microphones to detect gun= shot=20 locations before the inevitable 911 call. People need to just keep = thinking=20 and being creative, and a solution could present=20 itself.

Cheers!
John
 
Subject: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2 From: "Michael King" Mike@........................ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:02:47 -0700 Here is the overall design. The sensor consists of (2) geophones. They are places aprox. 30-40 feet = apart on a known trail that illegals use.=20 The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that amplify = the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1. The = level of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large enough = (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a = logic switch. In order to limit false hits the software in the basic stamp listens for = a hit on a geophone. When there is a hit it basically says if the = second geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds cancel the entire hit = becuase it is most likely rain or some other seismic disturbance. If = the gephone is hit after that to seconds the it is a real hit and send a = signal back to us through our repeater. The data coming to us tells us = what "port" hit first and what sensor it is. By knowing what port was = hit first we can tell what direction the contact is going. =20 During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the = line" or walking by both geophones. By doing this and counting the = number of footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary = counting of the number of people walking by. By dividing the number of = detected footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration = we have the number of intruders. It all works but the noisy circuit is = killing me. This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the software = just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random, = one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on end. If I = touch the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise until some = kind of seismic activity start the noise again. Michael S. King Technical Director American Border Patrol
Here is the overall = design.
 
The sensor consists of (2) = geophones.  They=20 are places aprox. 30-40 feet apart on a known trail that illegals=20 use. 
 
The prototypes we are using have (2) = LT1677 opamp=20 circuits that amplify the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a = basic=20 stamp 1.  The level of signal isn't converted to digital, the = signal when=20 large enough (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus = we have a=20 logic switch.
 
In order to limit false hits the = software in the=20 basic stamp listens for a hit on a geophone.  When there is a hit = it=20 basically says if the second geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds = cancel=20 the entire hit becuase it is most likely rain or some other seismic=20 disturbance.  If the gephone is hit after that to seconds the it is = a real=20 hit and send a signal back to us through our repeater.  The data = coming to=20 us tells us what "port" hit first and what sensor it is.  By = knowing what=20 port was hit first we can tell what direction the contact is = going. =20
 
During initial powerup we callibrate = the instrument=20 by "walking the line" or walking by both geophones.  By doing this = and=20 counting the number of footfalls on an average man we can the have a = rudimentary=20 counting of the number of people walking by.  By dividing the = number of=20 detected footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration = we have=20 the number of intruders.  It all works but the noisy circuit is = killing=20 me.
 
This system works but our circuit is = noisy and=20 when I make the software just send hits on either geophone as they = come in,=20 sometimes, at random,  one or both of the "ports" will show hits = for=20 minutes on end.  If I touch the circuit board with my finger i can = kill the=20 noise until some kind of seismic activity start the noise = again.
 
 
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical = Director
American=20 Border Patrol
Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 3 From: Thomas W Leiper twleiper@........ Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:40:00 -0400 Seems to me that if all you are doing is checking a trail, you could use an IR beam. Another thing you could use is the Polaroid ultrasonic range finder they used on their Land cameras, which I think is still available as an experimenter kit. It has a range of about 30 feet, and might even keep animals away. You could even mount such devices right onto the barrel of the machine gun and, in the case of the beam detection, set it to fire immediately with almost certain lethality. You would also need a hidden mechanical arm and claw that would then pop out, grasp the corpse and drop it into a pit, then swing back and deploy a rake to smooth over the killing zone... perhaps even sprinkling a little fresh sand over the area to cover any blood stains. Refer to "The Architects" skit for further ideas... On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:02:47 -0700 "Michael King" writes: Here is the overall design. The sensor consists of (2) geophones. They are places aprox. 30-40 feet apart on a known trail that illegals use. The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that amplify the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1. The level of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large enough (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a logic switch. In order to limit false hits the software in the basic stamp listens for a hit on a geophone. When there is a hit it basically says if the second geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds cancel the entire hit becuase it is most likely rain or some other seismic disturbance. If the gephone is hit after that to seconds the it is a real hit and send a signal back to us through our repeater. The data coming to us tells us what "port" hit first and what sensor it is. By knowing what port was hit first we can tell what direction the contact is going. During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the line" or walking by both geophones. By doing this and counting the number of footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary counting of the number of people walking by. By dividing the number of detected footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration we have the number of intruders. It all works but the noisy circuit is killing me. This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the software just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random, one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on end. If I touch the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise until some kind of seismic activity start the noise again. Michael S. King Technical Director American Border Patrol
Seems to me that if all you are doing is checking a trail, you
could use an IR beam. Another thing you could use is the
Polaroid ultrasonic range finder they used on their Land
cameras, which I think is still available as an experimenter
kit. It has a range of about 30 feet, and might even keep
animals away.
 
You could even mount such devices right onto the barrel
of the machine gun and, in the case of the beam detection,
set it to fire immediately with almost certain lethality. You
would also need a hidden mechanical arm and claw that
would then pop out, grasp the corpse and drop it into a
pit, then swing back and deploy a rake to smooth over
the killing zone... perhaps even sprinkling a little fresh
sand over the area to cover any blood stains.
 
Refer to "The Architects" skit for further ideas...
 
On Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:02:47 -0700 "Michael King" <Mike@......................... >=20 writes:
Here is the overall design.
 
The sensor consists of (2) geophones.&= nbsp; They=20 are places aprox. 30-40 feet apart on a known trail that illegals=20 use. 
 
The prototypes we are using have (2) = LT1677 opamp=20 circuits that amplify the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a = basic=20 stamp 1.  The level of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal= when=20 large enough (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we= have=20 a logic switch.
 
In order to limit false hits the = software in the=20 basic stamp listens for a hit on a geophone.  When there is a hit it= =20 basically says if the second geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds = cancel=20 the entire hit becuase it is most likely rain or some other seismic=20 disturbance.  If the gephone is hit after that to seconds the it is = a=20 real hit and send a signal back to us through our repeater.  The = data=20 coming to us tells us what "port" hit first and what sensor it is.  = By=20 knowing what port was hit first we can tell what direction the contact is= =20 going. 
 
During initial powerup we callibrate the= =20 instrument by "walking the line" or walking by both geophones.  By = doing=20 this and counting the number of footfalls on an average man we can the = have a=20 rudimentary counting of the number of people walking by.  By = dividing the=20 number of detected footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the=20 calibration we have the number of intruders.  It all works but the = noisy=20 circuit is killing me.
 
This system works but our circuit is = noisy and=20 when I make the software just send hits on either geophone as they = come=20 in, sometimes, at random,  one or both of the "ports" will show hits= for=20 minutes on end.  If I touch the circuit board with my finger i can = kill=20 the noise until some kind of seismic activity start the noise=20 again.
 
 
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical DirectorAmerican=20 Border Patrol
 
Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2 From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 15:54:22 EDT In a message dated 09/04/03, Mike@........................ writes: > The sensor consists of (2) geophones. They are places aprox. 30-40 feet > apart on a known trail that illegals use. > > The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that amplify the > geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1. The level of > signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large enough (about 1.67 > volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a logic switch. > During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the line" > or walking by both geophones. By doing this and counting the number of > footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary counting of the > number of people walking by. By dividing the number of detected footfall > by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration we have the number > of intruders. It all works but the noisy circuit is killing me. > > This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the software > just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random, > one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on end. If I touch > the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise until some kind of > Dear Michael King, The LT1677 is one of the best opamps for your job. From your description of the way the noise stops when you touch the board, I strongly suspect that you have faulty boards. It could be a faulty connection, faulty soldering, faulty components, poor design, something unstable in the circuit allowing oscillations, radio interference..... You need to get someone to find out, using an oscilloscope, just what is happening and then track down the why. What I am certain about, is that it should not be happening... and it does not happen in my geophones. One test that I have applied is to use a small battery powered audio amplifier with headphones to listen to the output of the circuit. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 09/04/= 03, Mike@........................ writes:

The sensor consists of (2)=20= geophones.  They are places aprox. 30-40 feet apart on a known trail th= at illegals use.=20
=20
The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that amplify=20= the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1.  The lev= el of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large enough (about= 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a logic switch.
During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the line= " or walking by both geophones.  By doing this and counting the number=20= of footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary counting of the= number of people walking by.  By dividing the number of detected footf= all by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration we have the numbe= r of intruders.  It all works but the noisy circuit is killing me.
=20
This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the software=20= just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random, &nb= sp;one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on end.  If I=20= touch the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise until some kind=20= of seismic activity start the noise again.


Dear Michael King,

      The LT1677 is one of the best opamp= s for your job. From your description of the way the noise stops when you to= uch the board, I strongly suspect that you have faulty boards. It could be a= faulty connection, faulty soldering, faulty components, poor design, someth= ing unstable in the circuit allowing oscillations, radio interference..... Y= ou need to get someone to find out, using an oscilloscope, just what is happ= ening and then track down the why. What I am certain about, is that it shoul= d not be happening... and it does not happen in my geophones. One test that=20= I have applied is to use a small battery powered audio amplifier with headph= ones to listen to the output of the circuit.  

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Tiltmeter question From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 16:02:27 EDT In a message dated 09/04/03, dyouden@......... writes: > Has anyone out there ever built a tiltmeter based on a simple balance beam? > What can you tell me about it? Hi Dave, Have an initial look at http://www.ecgs.lu/html/labo/labo_main.html to get a general idea of what the professionals use for measuring tilts. If you call up http://www.ecgs.lu/ you can click onto the publications and there is at least one long paper which is worth downloading by Nicolas d'Oreye and several other references. 'Ground tilt seismic spectrum measured with a new high sensitivity rotational spectrometer'. A N Luiten & Al. Rev.Sci. Instrum. V 68 (4), April 1997 pp 1889-1893 has a sensitive beam balance system and it is somewhere on the Web. I downloaded it, but am not now sure from where. Can let you have a copy if you can't find it. Depends on how sensitive you want it to be. Sean Morrissey's tiltmeter had a limit of about 0.1 nano radian. See his website. See also the 'standard' complete review 'Strainmeters and Tiltmeters' by Duncan Carr Agnew, Reviews of Geophys. V24 (3) pp579-624 1986 You might also be interested in R. Peters, ``Mechanically adjustable balance and sensitive tiltmeter", Meas. Sci. Technol. 1, 1131 (1990) Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 09/04/= 03, dyouden@......... writes:

Has anyone out there ever b= uilt a tiltmeter based on a simple balance beam?=20
What can you tell me about it?
Hi Dave,

      Have an initial look at http://www.= ecgs.lu/html/labo/labo_main.html to get a general idea of what the professio= nals use for measuring tilts. If you call up http://www.ecgs.lu/ you can cli= ck onto the publications and there is at least one long paper which is worth= downloading by Nicolas d'Oreye and several other references.

      'Ground tilt seismic spectrum measu= red with a new high sensitivity rotational spectrometer'. A N Luiten & A= l. Rev.Sci. Instrum. V 68 (4), April 1997  pp 1889-1893 has a sensitive= beam balance system and it is somewhere on the Web. I downloaded it, but am= not now sure from where. Can let you have a copy if you can't find it. Depe= nds on how sensitive you want it to be. Sean Morrissey's tiltmeter had a lim= it of about 0.1 nano radian. See his website.

      See also the 'standard' complete re= view 'Strainmeters and Tiltmeters' by Duncan Carr Agnew, Reviews of Geophys.= V24 (3) pp579-624 1986=20

      You might also be interested in R.=20= Peters, ``Mechanically adjustable balance and sensitive tiltmeter", Meas. Sc= i. Technol. 1, 1131 (1990)=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman




Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2 From: Karl Cunningham karlc@.......... Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 13:09:19 -0700 Michael -- I think something you should try is bandpass filtering, which is a combination of high-pass and low-pass filtering. Make some recordings of people walking past your sensors and do an FFT (using Winquake or the like), and get an idea in what frequencies the majority of the energy falls. Then filter out everything else. Also, geophones have a resonant frequency. You should be sure to properly dampen them with a resistor, or undampen them if the resonant frequency falls in your bandwidth of interest. That way the geophone is acting like a bandpass filter already. Be sure to record the waveforms of cattle too so you can figure out how to ignore them. I have an old US Border Patrol geophone that has a resonant frequency of about 10Hz as I remember. You've probably seen these molded with a spike. Those should be exactly what you want since they were made for this purpose initially. They might be available surplus these days if the US Border Patrol has given up using them. Karl Cunningham La Mesa, California --On Wednesday, April 09, 2003 10:02 AM -0700 Michael King wrote: > Here is the overall design. > > The sensor consists of (2) geophones. They are places aprox. 30-40 feet > apart on a known trail that illegals use. > > The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that amplify > the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1. The level > of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large enough (about > 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a logic switch. > > In order to limit false hits the software in the basic stamp listens for > a hit on a geophone. When there is a hit it basically says if the second > geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds cancel the entire hit becuase > it is most likely rain or some other seismic disturbance. If the gephone > is hit after that to seconds the it is a real hit and send a signal back > to us through our repeater. The data coming to us tells us what "port" > hit first and what sensor it is. By knowing what port was hit first we > can tell what direction the contact is going. > > During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the line" > or walking by both geophones. By doing this and counting the number of > footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary counting of the > number of people walking by. By dividing the number of detected footfall > by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration we have the number > of intruders. It all works but the noisy circuit is killing me. > > This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the software > just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random, > one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on end. If I touch > the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise until some kind of > seismic activity start the noise again. > > > > > Michael S. King > Technical Director > American Border Patrol __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2 From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:06:20 -0400 Mr. King

Are you aware that the National Institute of Science and Technology http://www.nist.gov has a mechanical engineering laboratory (MEL) which, in turn has a sensor laboratory studying exactly the subject of your question? The laboratory chief, E. Clayton Teague is a friend of mine, and I suggest that you get in touch with him. They are working with intrusion sensors that are smaller than a cigarette pack, have multiple sensors, and are networked via, I think 2.4 GHz radio. The idea is to spread a bunch of these along a trail and watch for intruders. If you need Clayton's e-mail address, and it's not on the website, please ask me.

Dave...



At 10:02 AM 4/9/03 -0700, you wrote:
Here is the overall design.
 
The sensor consists of (2) geophones.  They are places aprox. 30-40 feet apart on a known trail that illegals use.
 
The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that amplify the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1.  The level of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large enough (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a logic switch.
 
In order to limit false hits the software in the basic stamp listens for a hit on a geophone.  When there is a hit it basically says if the second geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds cancel the entire hit becuase it is most likely rain or some other seismic disturbance.  If the gephone is hit after that to seconds the it is a real hit and send a signal back to us through our repeater.  The data coming to us tells us what "port" hit first and what sensor it is.  By knowing what port was hit first we can tell what direction the contact is going. 
 
During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the line" or walking by both geophones.  By doing this and counting the number of footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary counting of the number of people walking by.  By dividing the number of detected footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration we have the number of intruders.  It all works but the noisy circuit is killing me.
 
This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the software just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random,  one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on end.  If I touch the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise until some kind of seismic activity start the noise again.
 
 
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical Director
American Border Patrol
Subject: Re: Tiltmeter question From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 12:16:49 -0700 I found it at: http://www.fsm.physics.uwa.edu.au/RSI.pdf Charles R. Patton Chris Chapman wrote: 'Ground tilt seismic spectrum measured with a new high sensitivity rotational spectrometer'. A N Luiten & Al. Rev.Sci. Instrum. V68 (4), April 1997 pp 1889-1893 has a sensitive beam balance system and it is somewhere on the Web. I downloaded it, but am not now sure from where... __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2 From: "Michael King" Mike@........................ Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 22:47:47 -0700 I would really like a way to reach this person. thank you. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David H. Youden=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 3:06 AM Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2 Mr. King Are you aware that the National Institute of Science and Technology = http://www.nist.gov has a mechanical engineering laboratory (MEL) which, = in turn has a sensor laboratory studying exactly the subject of your = question? The laboratory chief, E. Clayton Teague is a friend of mine, = and I suggest that you get in touch with him. They are working with = intrusion sensors that are smaller than a cigarette pack, have multiple = sensors, and are networked via, I think 2.4 GHz radio. The idea is to = spread a bunch of these along a trail and watch for intruders. If you = need Clayton's e-mail address, and it's not on the website, please ask = me. Dave... At 10:02 AM 4/9/03 -0700, you wrote: Here is the overall design. =20 The sensor consists of (2) geophones. They are places aprox. 30-40 = feet apart on a known trail that illegals use.=20 =20 The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that = amplify the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1. = The level of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large = enough (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have = a logic switch. =20 In order to limit false hits the software in the basic stamp listens = for a hit on a geophone. When there is a hit it basically says if the = second geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds cancel the entire hit = becuase it is most likely rain or some other seismic disturbance. If = the gephone is hit after that to seconds the it is a real hit and send a = signal back to us through our repeater. The data coming to us tells us = what "port" hit first and what sensor it is. By knowing what port was = hit first we can tell what direction the contact is going. =20 =20 During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the = line" or walking by both geophones. By doing this and counting the = number of footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary = counting of the number of people walking by. By dividing the number of = detected footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration = we have the number of intruders. It all works but the noisy circuit is = killing me. =20 This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the = software just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, = at random, one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on = end. If I touch the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise = until some kind of seismic activity start the noise again. =20 =20 =20 =20 Michael S. King Technical Director American Border Patrol
I would really like a way to reach this = person.  thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David = H. Youden=20
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 = 3:06=20 AM
Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion = detectors=20 part 2

Mr. King

Are you aware that the National = Institute of=20 Science and Technology http://www.nist.gov has a mechanical = engineering=20 laboratory (MEL) which, in turn has a sensor laboratory studying = exactly the=20 subject of your question? The laboratory chief, E. Clayton Teague is a = friend=20 of mine, and I suggest that you get in touch with him. They are = working with=20 intrusion sensors that are smaller than a cigarette pack, have = multiple=20 sensors, and are networked via, I think 2.4 GHz radio. The idea is to = spread a=20 bunch of these along a trail and watch for intruders. If you need = Clayton's=20 e-mail address, and it's not on the website, please ask=20 me.

Dave...



At 10:02 AM 4/9/03 -0700, you = wrote:
Here is=20 the overall design.
 
The sensor=20 consists of (2) geophones.  They are places aprox. 30-40 feet = apart on=20 a known trail that illegals use.
 
The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits = that=20 amplify the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp = 1. =20 The level of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when = large enough=20 (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a = logic=20 switch.
 
In order to = limit false=20 hits the software in the basic stamp listens for a hit on a = geophone. =20 When there is a hit it basically says if the second geopghone is hit = within=20 the next 2 seconds cancel the entire hit becuase it is most likely = rain or=20 some other seismic disturbance.  If the gephone is hit after = that to=20 seconds the it is a real hit and send a signal back to us through = our=20 repeater.  The data coming to us tells us what "port" hit first = and=20 what sensor it is.  By knowing what port was hit first we can = tell what=20 direction the contact is going. 
 
During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by = "walking the=20 line" or walking by both geophones.  By doing this and counting = the=20 number of footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary = counting=20 of the number of people walking by.  By dividing the number of = detected=20 footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration we = have the=20 number of intruders.  It all works but the noisy circuit is = killing=20 me.
 
This system = works but our=20 circuit is noisy and when I make the software just send hits on = either=20 geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random,  one or both of = the=20 "ports" will show hits for minutes on end.  If I touch the = circuit=20 board with my finger i can kill the noise until some kind of seismic = activity start the noise=20 again.
 
 
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical Director
American Border=20 Patrol
Subject: Re: Tiltmeter question From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 05:54:55 -0400 Thanks, I found it too. It was just what I was looking for. Dave... At 12:16 PM 4/10/03 -0700, you wrote: >I found it at: >http://www.fsm.physics.uwa.edu.au/RSI.pdf >Charles R. Patton > > Chris Chapman wrote: >'Ground tilt seismic spectrum measured with a new high sensitivity >rotational spectrometer'. A N Luiten & Al. Rev.Sci. Instrum. V68 (4), >April 1997 pp 1889-1893 has a sensitive beam balance system and it is >somewhere on the Web. I downloaded it, but am not now sure from where... >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2 From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 06:06:24 -0400 Mr King,

Perhaps this contact information will help.

E. Clayton Teague
...Technology Manufacturing Metrology Division 100 Bureau Drive, Stop 8220 Gaithersburg, MD 20899-8220 USA E-mail: clayton.teague@nist.gov Telephone Number: (301) 975-6600 Last update: May 1, 2002
http://www.mel.nist.gov/div822/teague.htm

Dave...



At 10:47 PM 4/10/03 -0700, you wrote:
I would really like a way to reach this person.  thank you.
----- Original Message -----
From: David H. Youden
To: psn-l@..............
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: Seismic intrusion detectors part 2

Mr. King

Are you aware that the National Institute of Science and Technology http://www.nist.gov has a mechanical engineering laboratory (MEL) which, in turn has a sensor laboratory studying exactly the subject of your question? The laboratory chief, E. Clayton Teague is a friend of mine, and I suggest that you get in touch with him. They are working with intrusion sensors that are smaller than a cigarette pack, have multiple sensors, and are networked via, I think 2.4 GHz radio. The idea is to spread a bunch of these along a trail and watch for intruders. If you need Clayton's e-mail address, and it's not on the website, please ask me.

Dave...



At 10:02 AM 4/9/03 -0700, you wrote:
Here is the overall design.
 
The sensor consists of (2) geophones.  They are places aprox. 30-40 feet apart on a known trail that illegals use.
 
The prototypes we are using have (2) LT1677 opamp circuits that amplify the geophone outputs and feed the signal into a basic stamp 1.  The level of signal isn't converted to digital, the signal when large enough (about 1.67 volts) will drive the input pin high and thus we have a logic switch.
 
In order to limit false hits the software in the basic stamp listens for a hit on a geophone.  When there is a hit it basically says if the second geopghone is hit within the next 2 seconds cancel the entire hit becuase it is most likely rain or some other seismic disturbance.  If the gephone is hit after that to seconds the it is a real hit and send a signal back to us through our repeater.  The data coming to us tells us what "port" hit first and what sensor it is.  By knowing what port was hit first we can tell what direction the contact is going. 
 
During initial powerup we callibrate the instrument by "walking the line" or walking by both geophones.  By doing this and counting the number of footfalls on an average man we can the have a rudimentary counting of the number of people walking by.  By dividing the number of detected footfall by the number of detected footfalls in the calibration we have the number of intruders.  It all works but the noisy circuit is killing me.
 
This system works but our circuit is noisy and when I make the software just send hits on either geophone as they come in, sometimes, at random,  one or both of the "ports" will show hits for minutes on end.  If I touch the circuit board with my finger i can kill the noise until some kind of seismic activity start the noise again.
 
 
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical Director
American Border Patrol
Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:39:24 -0400 Mr Michael King,

Did you ever make contact with NIST? If so, were they of any help to you?

Dave...

At 03:09 PM 4/8/03 -0700, you wrote:
I am designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the country illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the American Border Patrol.  Some of yo may have heard of us.  I am looking for a good circuit that uses very little power and has little noise but amplifies alot.  If anyone can help me it would be appreciated and you would be helping our country guard it's borders.
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical Director
American Border Patrol
Subject: Fw: U.S. Educational Seismology Network From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 00:46:13 -0700 Hi Everyone, I received this request for information from Matthew Campbell regarding seismograph systems located in schools around the US. Attached with his email message was this M$ Word document http://www.seismicnet.com/incoming/usesnform.doc that should be filled out and sent to Matthew. If you can help out that would be great. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: I now have a new email address. The email address COCHRANE@.............. has been changed to LCOCHRANE at WEBTRONICS dot COM. I needed to do this do to too much SPAM being sent to my old address. Please do not place my new address on any Web pages. See http://www.seismicnet.com/contact.html for more information. Matthew Campbell wrote: > > I am a graduate student working with Michael Hamburger and Gary Pavlis > on the U.S. Educational Seismology Network (USESN) project, with > support from IRIS. As part of that project, I am writing to ask your > help in developing a database of educational seismic stations across > the country. The ultimate goal of the project is to develop a > coherent national network of independently operated seismograph > stations, transmitting data in real time over the Internet, and whose > data are readily available to the educational and research > communities. > > As a first step in this process, we would like to consolidate > information about the existing educational seismic stations, in order > to maximize the value of data produced by these stations, to provide > technical and curricular support for participating schools, and to > ensure that teachers and students become part of a newly emerging > national network. > > We ask your help in getting this basic information about the schools > in your network. I am appending to this message a brief questionnaire > about station operation that summarizes critical information about > participating seismograph stations, as well as an Excel spreadsheet > with entries for the relevant information. You may not have all of > this information readily available, but whatever information you can > provide at this stage will be most helpful in getting the database > started. If possible, please try to get the information back to us by > May 5, 2003, when we'll be compiling information from the entire > national network. > > Please let me know if you have any questions about this request. > Information should be sent to me at ecphora@............ with copies > to pepp@............ > > We thank you for your assistance with this important endeavor. We > look forward to working with you. > > Matthew Campbell > ecphora@........... > Department of Geological Sciences > Indiana University > Bloomington, Indiana 47405 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: New Email address From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 01:03:19 -0700 Hi again, I wanted to let everyone know that I have a new email address. My old address will work for a while, but in a few weeks I will configure my mail server to reject all mail sent to my old address. The amount of SPAM being sent it is getting way out of hand... For a good article on how spammers get your email address see http://www.cdt.org/speech/spam/030319spamreport.shtml. This is why I request that my new email address not be placed on any web pages or given out to web sites. Regards, Larry (I hate SPAM) Cochrane Redwood City, PSN -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note: I now have a new email address. The email address COCHRANE@.............. has been changed to LCOCHRANE at WEBTRONICS dot COM. I needed to do this do to too much SPAM being sent to my old address. Please do not place my new address on any Web pages. See http://www.seismicnet.com/contact.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors From: "Michael King" Mike@........................ Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2003 08:45:53 -0700 Hi David, No, not yet. However, I found an Electronic Engineer with 30+ years = experience designing super low power circuits and he did it for free for = us (and his country per him). with this new circuit we are able to get = about 2 yrs battery life with just 6 AA batteries! I thank you for your = help with this. Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: David H. Youden=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Intrusion Sensors Mr Michael King, Did you ever make contact with NIST? If so, were they of any help to = you? Dave... At 03:09 PM 4/8/03 -0700, you wrote: I am designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the = country illegally in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the = American Border Patrol. Some of yo may have heard of us. I am looking = for a good circuit that uses very little power and has little noise but = amplifies alot. If anyone can help me it would be appreciated and you = would be helping our country guard it's borders. =20 =20 Michael S. King Technical Director American Border Patrol
Hi David,
 
No, not yet.  However, I found an = Electronic=20 Engineer with 30+ years experience designing super low power circuits = and he did=20 it for free for us (and his country per him).   with this new = circuit=20 we are able to get about 2 yrs battery life with just 6 AA = batteries!  I=20 thank you for your help with this.
 
Mike
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David = H. Youden=20
Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2003 = 8:39=20 AM
Subject: Re: Intrusion = Sensors

Mr Michael King,

Did you ever make contact with = NIST? If=20 so, were they of any help to you?

Dave...

At 03:09 PM = 4/8/03=20 -0700, you wrote:
I am=20 designing intrusion sensors to detect people entering the country = illegally=20 in southern AZ. I am the technical director of the American Border=20 Patrol.  Some of yo may have heard of us.  I am looking = for a good=20 circuit that uses very little power and has little noise but = amplifies=20 alot.  If anyone can help me it would be appreciated and you = would be=20 helping our country guard it's = borders.
 
 
Michael S. King
Technical = Director
American Border=20 Patrol
Subject: slow quakes From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 11:25:28 -0400 Hi gang, The NY Times Science section this morning had a fairly long article about slow quakes in the Washington state area. You can read this by going to nytimes.com and searching on "slow quakes" Bob Barns __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: USGS Releases New Bay Area Earthquake Probabilities & Loss Estimates From: RLLaney@....... Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 22:18:40 EDT Hello all: The USGS today issued a press release titled : Rolling and Shaking in the Bay Area: USGS Releases New Bay Area Earthquake=20 Probabilities & Loss Estimates. The details of the report can be seen at: http://quake.usgs.gov. Bob Laney Salem, Oregon =A0 =20 =20 Hello all:

The USGS today issued a press release titled :

Rolling and Shaking in the Bay Area: USGS Releases New Bay Area Earthquake P= robabilities & Loss Estimates.

The details of the report can be seen at:  http://quake.usgs.gov.

Bob Laney
Salem, Oregon
=A0


Subject: DATAQ DI-194RS From: "Mauro Mariotti" mariotti@......... Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 11:05:37 +0200 Hi All, I developed a driver for the datalogger SEISMOWIN=20 and the DATAQ DI-194RS a/d converter. The driver is under test. If someone is using this a/d converter and it is interested to try SEISMOWIN as datalogger program can ask me and I will send a complete istallation package. Regards Mauro
Hi All,
 
I developed a driver for the datalogger = SEISMOWIN=20
and the DATAQ DI-194RS a/d = converter.
The driver is under test.
If someone is using this a/d converter = and it is=20 interested
to try SEISMOWIN as datalogger program = can ask=20 me
and I will send a complete istallation=20 package.
 
Regards
Mauro
 
 
Subject: Re: DATAQ DI-194RS From: "Jonathan Peakall" jpeakall@............ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 11:43:19 -0700 Mauro, I'm using it and I'd like to try SEISMOWIN. Jonathan www.madlabs.info ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mauro Mariotti=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 2:05 AM Subject: DATAQ DI-194RS Hi All, I developed a driver for the datalogger SEISMOWIN=20 and the DATAQ DI-194RS a/d converter. The driver is under test. If someone is using this a/d converter and it is interested to try SEISMOWIN as datalogger program can ask me and I will send a complete istallation package. Regards Mauro
Mauro,
 
I'm using it and I'd like to try=20 SEISMOWIN.
 
Jonathan
 
www.madlabs.info
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mauro = Mariotti
Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 = 2:05=20 AM
Subject: DATAQ DI-194RS

Hi All,
 
I developed a driver for the = datalogger SEISMOWIN=20
and the DATAQ DI-194RS a/d=20 converter.
The driver is under = test.
If someone is using this a/d = converter and it is=20 interested
to try SEISMOWIN as datalogger = program can ask=20 me
and I will send a complete = istallation=20 package.
 
Regards
Mauro
 
 
Subject: felt first quake From: "Bryan Goss" bgoss@....... Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:08:09 -0500 I Felt my first quake, wasn't asleep and the bed shook lightly for about = 3 or 4 seconds. I built a seismo but sold it after running it about a = year this would have been cool to get. This is rare in Mississippi!!, It = was only 4.9 in Alabama I live in northeast corner of MS near Alabama = line.
I Felt my first quake, wasn't = asleep and the=20 bed shook lightly for about 3 or 4 seconds. I built a seismo but = sold it=20 after running it about a year this would have been cool to=20 get. This is rare in Mississippi!!, It was only 4.9 in Alabama I = live in=20 northeast corner of MS near Alabama line.
Subject: Fw: Quiet Seismographs - The passing of Nick Caporossi April 28 2003 From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:24:07 -0700 Hi Everyone, I just received this sad news from Nick Caporossi son.... Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN > You may have noticed fewer listings from Central > Jersey PSN network seismographs: > nc1, nc2, nc3, nc4, nc5 etc. > PSN Seismographs from in East Brunswick and Highland > Park New Jersey will no longer post regular listings > from the northeast part of North America. > > Nick Caporossi passed away April 28 2003 . > > I may keep the seismograph in basement running and > from time to time submit a noteworthy event to the > network but not at the conscientious level my father > did. > > He would travel with a laptop and "dial in and check > up" on his seismographs remotely on a "PC anywhere" > modem connection. > > Some of the final events he recorded were observed > remotely while on such a modem connection while in the > hospital. He did this even while being very sick, he > never lost interest. > > He will be surely missed. > > Jim Caporossi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > NICHOLAS CAPOROSSI, AGE 74, EAST BRUNSWICK > > Published in the Home News Tribune 4/30/03 > > Nicholas Caporossi, 74, died Monday, April 28, 2003, at Saint Peter's University Hospital, > New Brunswick. > > Born in Brooklyn, N.Y., he resided in East Brunswick for 40 years. He was a designer for > AT&T Bell Laboratory in Holmdel for 42 years before retiring in 1992. He was a Navy veteran > of World War II, serving as a corpsman. Mr. Caporossi was a member of the Telephone > Pioneers of America and a member of IEEE. > > He is survived by his wife of 50 years, Sophie Cozzolino Caporossi; three sons, Paul Caporossi > of Herndon, Va., James Caporossi of Highland Park and Nicholas Caporossi of South > Brunswick; his daughter, Annemarie Bartlett of Troy, Mich.; a brother, Andrew > Caporossi of Queens, N.Y., and four grandchildren. > > Funeral services will be held 8:15 a.m. Friday at Rezem Funeral Home, 457 Cranbury > Road, East Brunswick, followed by a 9 a.m. funeral Mass at St. Thomas the Apostle > R.C. Church in Old Bridge. Burial will be at St. Peter's Cemetery, New Brunswick. > Calling hours are 2-4 p.m. and 7-9 p.m. Thursday at the funeral home. In lieu of flowers, > donations can be made to St. Thomas the Apostle Church, 1 St. Thomas Plaza, Old > Bridge, NJ 08857, or the Leukemia Foundation. > > from the Home News Tribune > > Published on April 30, 2003 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Questions about shackleford From: Ruediger Wisskirchen r.wisskirchen@....... Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 22:18:51 +0300 Hi, I am a teacher in a turkish highschool and I try, after having finished alread a lehmann, to build a shackleford. We follow the article in scientific american and the sugestions made buy Larry Cochrane. But there are a few things I don't understand: - In my opinion, the main purpose of the damping coil is to enlarge the period, as the force acted by it is proportional to the elongation and not to the velocity. Is this right? - What is the purpose of the capacitor just before the damping-coil in the original plan and Larrys plan. Does it acts as a low-pass-filter? Does it has to be an electrolyt or is keramic possible? - is it right, that the integrator just acts as a low-pass and has no influence on the periode of the pendulum? - In Larry Cochranes Plan is a buffer amp in front of the dampingcoil. What are bufferamps for? I can find here only 741 ops. Is it possible, to use them as bufferamps? Sorry for my poor english. I hope you can understand my questions. Thanks for any help Rudy __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Questions about shackleford From: Ruediger Wisskirchen r.wisskirchen@....... Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 23:05:05 +0300 Hi, I am a teacher in a turkish highschool and I try, after having finished alread a lehmann, to build a shackleford. We follow the article in scientific american and the sugestions made buy Larry Cochrane. But there are a few things I don't understand: - In my opinion, the main purpose of the damping coil is to enlarge the period, as the force acted by it is proportional to the elongation and not to the velocity. Is this right? - What is the purpose of the capacitor just before the damping-coil in the original plan and Larrys plan. Does it acts as a low-pass-filter? Does it has to be an electrolyt or is keramic possible? - is it right, that the integrator just acts as a low-pass and has no influence on the periode of the pendulum? - In Larry Cochranes Plan is a buffer amp in front of the dampingcoil. What are bufferamps for? I can find here only 741 ops. Is it possible, to use them as bufferamps? Sorry for my poor english. I hope you can understand my questions. Thanks for any help Rudy __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Lengthening a vertical period with pulley From: "John D Nelson" jnelson@................. Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 15:25:59 -0500 Has anybody ever thought of lengthening the period of a vertical with a pulley arrangement like a compound bow. Seems to me that If you took the basic LaCoste arrangement and fixed the spring where the weight would ordinarily be, placed a multiple pulley from the spring to the top point and then hung the weight on the cable to the pully, the period would lengthen times the amount of the mechanical advantage. Ideally the best medium instead of rope would be flat metal tape. The only problem I see is friction in the bearings of the pulleys lowering the sensitivity of the instrument. Has this ever been done? =20 John Nelson

Has anybody ever thought of lengthening the period of = a vertical with a pulley arrangement like a compound bow.  Seems to = me that If you took the basic LaCoste arrangement and fixed the spring where the = weight would ordinarily be, placed a multiple pulley from the spring to the top = point and then hung the weight on the cable to the pully, the period would = lengthen times the amount of the mechanical advantage.  Ideally the best = medium instead of rope would be flat metal tape.  The only problem I see = is friction in the bearings of the pulleys lowering the sensitivity of the instrument.  Has this ever been done?

 

John Nelson

=00 Subject: Re: Lengthening a vertical period with pulley From: "Mark Robinson" mark.robinson@............... Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 11:10:20 +1200 Hi John and all, My most recent project has been refurbishing a weighing and packaging machine which included a mechanical movement amplifier arrangement which may be applicable to your suggestion below. The basic arrangement of the weigh head was a parallelogram with leaf springs making up the top and bottom sides, the world in general the left hand side, and the moving mass the right. beyond this there was an arm in the middle of the parallelogram actuated by the moving mass, and pivoted on crossed shims (the low friction pulley). I've made a rough conceptual diagram of it which is at http://203.79.120.108/weigh_head.jpg These weigh heads also included rather nifty dashpot dampers which could be adjusted by simply turning one half which was mounted on a screw until critical damping was achieved. regards Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: John D Nelson To: PSN-L@.............. Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 8:25 AM Subject: Lengthening a vertical period with pulley Has anybody ever thought of lengthening the period of a vertical with a pulley arrangement like a compound bow. Seems to me that If you took the basic LaCoste arrangement and fixed the spring where the weight would ordinarily be, placed a multiple pulley from the spring to the top point and then hung the weight on the cable to the pully, the period would lengthen times the amount of the mechanical advantage. Ideally the best medium instead of rope would be flat metal tape. The only problem I see is friction in the bearings of the pulleys lowering the sensitivity of the instrument. Has this ever been done? John Nelson __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Lengthening a vertical period with pulley From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 20:15:56 EDT In a message dated 01/05/03, jnelson@................. writes: > Has anybody ever thought of lengthening the period of a vertical with a > pulley arrangement like a compound bow. Hello John, You could use a mass hung from an eccentric pulley which is suspended on a horizontal torsion rod, to give an extended period. Essentially you are balancing the rate of change in rotational torque from the rod with a variable mechanical advantage to obtain a small angle over which the resultant rotational restoring force is nearly constant. This 'bow type' application has been done successfully. Seems to me that If you took the basic LaCoste arrangement and fixed the spring > where the weight would ordinarily be, placed a multiple pulley from the > spring to the top point and then hung the weight on the cable to the > pulley, the period would lengthen times the amount of the mechanical > advantage. Ideally the best medium instead of rope would be flat metal > tape. The only problem I see is friction in the bearings of the pulleys > lowering the sensitivity of the instrument. Has this ever been done? Can you explain a bit more clearly why you think your proposal should extend the period, please? If you have a constant spring force and use a mechanical advantage of n, you will need 1/n of the original mass to balance the system. Do you have a pictorial reference for the type of bow you are considering, please? There are some very complicated designs about. The LaCoste compensation system depends on the spring having a zero length when it is unloaded. Practical springs are tightly coiled and you have to put an appreciable force on them before they extend at all. It is possible to use a strongly bent leaf spring which has the same extension / force rate on the underside of the LaCoste beam. See Sean Morrissey's STM-8 vertical seismometer. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 01/05/= 03, jnelson@................. writes:

Has anybody ever thought of= lengthening the period of a vertical with a pulley arrangement like a compo= und bow.  


Hello John,

      You could use a mass hung from an e= ccentric pulley which is suspended on a horizontal torsion rod, to give an e= xtended period. Essentially you are balancing the rate of change in rotation= al torque from the rod with a variable mechanical advantage to obtain a smal= l angle over which the resultant rotational restoring force is nearly consta= nt. This 'bow type' application has been done successfully.

Seems to me that If you took the basic LaCoste arrangement and fixed the= spring
where the weigh= t would ordinarily be, placed a multiple pulley from the spring to the top p= oint and then hung the weight on the cable to the pulley, the period would l= engthen times the amount of the mechanical advantage.  Ideally the best= medium instead of rope would be flat metal tape.  The only problem I s= ee is friction in the bearings of the pulleys lowering the sensitivity of th= e instrument.  Has this ever been done?
      Can you explain a bit more clearly=20= why you think your proposal should extend the period, please? If you have a=20= constant spring force and use a mechanical advantage of n, you will need 1/n= of the original mass to balance the system. Do you have a pictorial referen= ce for the type of bow you are considering, please? There are some very comp= licated designs about.=20

      The LaCoste compensation system dep= ends on the spring having a zero length when it is unloaded. Practical sprin= gs are tightly coiled and you have to put an appreciable force on them befor= e they extend at all. It is possible to use a strongly bent leaf spring whic= h has the same extension / force rate on the underside of the LaCoste beam.=20= See Sean Morrissey's STM-8 vertical seismometer.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Re: Questions about shackleford From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 17:34:08 -0700 Ruediger, > Hi, > I am a teacher in a turkish highschool and I try, after having finished > alread a lehmann, to build a shackleford. > We follow the article in scientific american and the sugestions made buy > Larry Cochrane. > But there are a few things I don't understand: > - In my opinion, the main purpose of the damping coil is to enlarge the > period, as the force acted by it is proportional to the elongation and > not to the velocity. Is this right? No, the damping coil and feedback loop are used to dampen out the natural oscillation of the pendulum. > - What is the purpose of the capacitor just before the damping-coil in > the original plan and Larrys plan. Does it acts as a low-pass-filter? > Does it has to be an electrolyt or is keramic possible? This is a high-pass filter that is used to stabilize the damping of the pendulum. You may need to change the parts values if the pendulum oscillates. You can use two back-to-back electrolytic capacitors for this filter. > - is it right, that the integrator just acts as a low-pass and has no > influence on the periode of the pendulum? That's correct, the integrator acts as a low-pass filter and is not in the feedback loop, so it does not influence the period of the pendulum. What the integration does is convert acceleration to velocity. > - In Larry Cochranes Plan is a buffer amp in front of the dampingcoil. > What are bufferamps for? I can find here only 741 ops. Is it possible, > to use them as bufferamps? 741 op-amps are not very good. To drive the coil you need an op-amp that can supply some drive current. I use a NE5534 but other low impedance output op-amps can be used in this part of the circuit. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Attention: Dataq users From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 23:32:58 EDT Hi to all users of Dataq serial devices, I have developed a package of applications that are written in Visual Basic 6.0 specifically for amateur seismography. They permit gap-free data logging, heliplot display, filtering, editing, and conversion of WDQ format files to PSN Type 4. For data logging, you can have your choice of multi-channel output files, or separate files for each enabled channel. Start-up can be manual, triggered, or scheduled. Event marks are made on downward transitions of digital input D0. In triggered start mode, recording starts on the first downward transition of D0. Sequential files of any sample size can be made without loss of any samples. A real-time spectrum analyzer is built into one version of the data logger. For editing, you can splice single channel files together, or combine separate channel files into one multi-channel file. You can correct the recorded start time, and trim the recorded sample period to its true value. You can convert files to PSN format, using header templates already set up with your sensor properties and timing information. For display and filtering the DrumPlot and ShortPlot programs are included. Filtered versions of raw data files can be created and saved. For Lehman-type sensors, a filter is provided that mathematically extends the period of the sensor up to five times its natural period. (Since my sensor is only 11 seconds natural period, I would be lost without this filter.) To see the entire plotting surface, your screen area must be at least 1024 x 768 pixels. This package will eventually be posted on John Lahr's web site, http://www.jjlahr.com/science/psn as "SeismicForDataq.zip". It will augment and update other applications already on the site. If you should want an advance copy, please contact me by email. Regards, Bob McClure Hi to all users of Dataq serial devices,

  I have developed a package of applications that are written in Visual= Basic 6.0 specifically for amateur seismography.  They permit gap-free= data logging, heliplot display, filtering, editing, and conversion of WDQ f= ormat files to PSN Type 4.

  For data logging, you can have your choice of multi-channel output fi= les, or separate files for each enabled channel.  Start-up can be manua= l, triggered, or scheduled.  Event marks are made on downward transitio= ns of digital input D0.  In triggered start mode, recording starts on t= he first downward transition of D0.  Sequential files of any sample siz= e can be made without loss of any samples.  A real-time spectrum analyz= er is built into one version of the data logger.

  For editing, you can splice single channel files together, or combine= separate channel files into one multi-channel file.  You can correct t= he recorded start time, and trim the recorded sample period to its true valu= e.  You can convert files to PSN format, using header templates already= set up with your sensor properties and timing information.

  For display and filtering the DrumPlot and ShortPlot programs are inc= luded.  Filtered versions of raw data files can be created and saved.&n= bsp; For Lehman-type sensors, a filter is provided that mathematically exten= ds the period of the sensor up to five times its natural period.  (Sinc= e my sensor is only 11 seconds natural period, I would be lost without this=20= filter.)  To see the entire plotting surface, your screen area must be=20= at least 1024 x 768 pixels.

  This package will eventually be posted on John Lahr's web site,

http://www.jjlahr.com/science/psn as "SeismicForDataq.zip".

  It will augment and update other applications already on the site. If= you should want an advance copy, please contact me by email.

Regards,

Bob McClure

 Subject: RE: Lengthening a vertical period with pulley From: "John D Nelson" jnelson@................. Date: Fri, 2 May 2003 07:48:03 -0500 You nailed the flaw in my logic right away. I wasn't thinking about the fact that weight would be reduced by the factor of the mechanical advantage. My thinking was using the same weight which wouldn't work. Thanks for kick in the head. =20 John Nelson =20 -----Original Message----- From: ChrisAtUpw@....... [mailto:ChrisAtUpw@........... Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 7:16 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Lengthening a vertical period with pulley =20 In a message dated 01/05/03, jnelson@................. writes:=20 Has anybody ever thought of lengthening the period of a vertical with a pulley arrangement like a compound bow. =20 Hello John,=20 You could use a mass hung from an eccentric pulley which is suspended on a horizontal torsion rod, to give an extended period. Essentially you are balancing the rate of change in rotational torque from the rod with a variable mechanical advantage to obtain a small angle over which the resultant rotational restoring force is nearly constant. This 'bow type' application has been done successfully.=20 Seems to me that If you took the basic LaCoste arrangement and fixed the spring=20 where the weight would ordinarily be, placed a multiple pulley from the spring to the top point and then hung the weight on the cable to the pulley, the period would lengthen times the amount of the mechanical advantage. Ideally the best medium instead of rope would be flat metal tape. The only problem I see is friction in the bearings of the pulleys lowering the sensitivity of the instrument. Has this ever been done? Can you explain a bit more clearly why you think your proposal should extend the period, please? If you have a constant spring force and use a mechanical advantage of n, you will need 1/n of the original mass to balance the system. Do you have a pictorial reference for the type of bow you are considering, please? There are some very complicated designs about.=20 The LaCoste compensation system depends on the spring having a zero length when it is unloaded. Practical springs are tightly coiled and you have to put an appreciable force on them before they extend at all. It is possible to use a strongly bent leaf spring which has the same extension / force rate on the underside of the LaCoste beam. See Sean Morrissey's STM-8 vertical seismometer.=20 Regards,=20 Chris Chapman

You nailed the flaw in my logic = right away.  I wasn’t thinking about the fact that weight would be = reduced by the factor of the mechanical advantage.  My thinking was using = the same weight which wouldn’t work.  Thanks for kick in the = head.

 

John Nelson

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: ChrisAtUpw@....... [mailto:ChrisAtUpw@........
Sent: Thursday, May 01, = 2003 7:16 PM
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: Re: Lengthening = a vertical period with pulley

 

In a message dated = 01/05/03, jnelson@................. writes:


Has anybody ever thought of lengthening the period of a vertical with a pulley arrangement like a = compound bow.  



Hello John, =

      You could use a mass hung from an = eccentric pulley which is suspended on a horizontal torsion rod, to give an = extended period. Essentially you are balancing the rate of change in rotational = torque from the rod with a variable mechanical advantage to obtain a small = angle over which the resultant rotational restoring force is nearly constant. This = 'bow type' application has been done successfully.

Seems to me that If you took the basic LaCoste arrangement and fixed the = spring

where the weight would ordinarily be, placed a multiple pulley from the spring = to the top point and then hung the weight on the cable to the pulley, the = period would lengthen times the amount of the mechanical advantage.  Ideally the = best medium instead of rope would be flat metal tape.  The only problem = I see is friction in the bearings of the pulleys lowering the sensitivity of = the instrument.  Has this ever been done?



      Can you explain a bit more clearly = why you think your proposal should extend the period, please? If you have a = constant spring force and use a mechanical advantage of n, you will need 1/n of = the original mass to balance the system. Do you have a pictorial reference = for the type of bow you are considering, please? There are some very complicated designs about.

      The LaCoste compensation system = depends on the spring having a zero length when it is unloaded. Practical springs = are tightly coiled and you have to put an appreciable force on them before = they extend at all. It is possible to use a strongly bent leaf spring which = has the same extension / force rate on the underside of the LaCoste beam. See = Sean Morrissey's STM-8 vertical seismometer.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman

=00 Subject: from Angel in Panama From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 06:31:56 -0500 Hello Everyone, I have a general question about GPS timing. I have several systems that have GPS timing systems and have always assumed that they were "right on", but now I have my doubts. I have one system on that is using a Motorola Oncore with and interface from Larry. I then use TAC32 to read the GPS time and set the PC time. Based on some conversations with Mauro and some of the work on the array I decided to check the GPS clocks. I set TAC32 to read the GPS but not set the PC time, ever. Then I set Tardis to get the time via NTP and set the PC time every second. Then I set TAC32 to show the difference between GPS time and the PC time. I get a consistent difference of .825 seconds. I have calculated the cable losses from the antenna and they don't seem to be able to account for all of that. Anyone have any ideas?? On a difference note, just last night I was able to locate two events using nothing but the small array!! I will try to update the web page this weekend. Regards, angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: from Angel in Panama From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 17:24:31 EDT In a message dated 03/05/03, stuff@................. writes: > I set TAC32 to read the GPS but not set the PC time, ever. Then I set > Tardis to get the time via NTP and set the PC time every second. Then > I set TAC32 to show the difference between GPS time and the PC time. > > I get a consistent difference of .825 seconds. I have calculated the > cable losses from the antenna and they don't seem to be able to > account for all of that. > > Anyone have any ideas? Hi Angel, How about tuning your radio in to WWV time signals from Bolder and listening to find out which is roughly correct? 2.5, 5, 10, 15 & 20 MHz. The 29th and 59th pulses are omitted. The minute pulse is 0.8 sec a 1 KHz and the rest are 5 mS. The offset applied to Tardis could be incorrect. How do the radio signals compare with the display on your PC? I was wondering if you have a timekeeping problem or a time setting / reading problem, since the PC is driven using interrupts. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 03/05/= 03, stuff@................. writes:

I set TAC32 to read the GPS= but not set the PC time, ever.  Then I set
Tardis to get the time via NTP and set the PC time every second. Then
I set TAC32 to show the difference between GPS time and the PC time.

I get a consistent difference of .825 seconds. I have calculated the
cable losses from the antenna and they don't seem to be able to
account for all of that.

Anyone have any ideas?
Hi Angel,

      How about tuning your radio in to W= WV time signals from Bolder and listening to find out which is roughly corre= ct? 2.5, 5, 10, 15 & 20 MHz. The 29th and 59th pulses are omitted. The m= inute pulse is 0.8 sec a 1 KHz and the rest are 5 mS.=20
      The offset applied to Tardis could=20= be incorrect. How do the radio signals compare with the display on your PC?=20= I was wondering if you have a timekeeping problem or a time setting / readin= g problem, since the PC is driven using interrupts.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Re: from Angel in Panama From: "kpayea" kpayea@........... Date: Sat, 3 May 2003 18:44:23 -0700 NTP offsets of 100's of milliseconds are not unusual. It depends on how far away the server is. Can you tell me more about how you have Tardis configured? Just telling it to set the time every second may not do what you want. Most NTP client software tries to keep the PC clock within a second of UTC. GPS by itself can deliver time well below a microsecond without any trouble, better if you have a good receiver. I used to work for TrueTime (now a division of Symmetricom) and we and our competitors claim accuracy in the area of 25 nanoseconds RMS, 100 ns peak. Many of them use Motorola OnCore receivers to get there. The real trick is getting the time from the receiver to the PC. If you just use the serial message, all of the precision from the GPS has gone out the window. Some people use the 1 Pulse Per Second (PPS) output from the receiver into one of the RS-232 control lines on the PC serial port to improve the timing. Then they dig deep into the PC to use the interrupts for the best response. Even then, you can't get the PC's clock set closer than a few milliseconds. The people who wrote TAC32 claim 25 milliseconds, which is pretty reasonable. Based on your setup, I would question Tardis and NTP before TAC32 and GPS. At these levels, you can ignore cable delay from the antenna. Even 300 meters of cable will only shift the time about a microsecond or so. Good Luck Keith ----- Original Message ----- From: "a.rodriguez" To: Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:31 AM Subject: from Angel in Panama > Hello Everyone, > > I have a general question about GPS timing. > > I have several systems that have GPS timing systems and have always > assumed that they were "right on", but now I have my doubts. > > I have one system on that is using a Motorola Oncore with and > interface from Larry. I then use TAC32 to read the GPS time and set the > PC time. > > Based on some conversations with Mauro and some of the work on the > array I decided to check the GPS clocks. > > I set TAC32 to read the GPS but not set the PC time, ever. Then I set > Tardis to get the time via NTP and set the PC time every second. Then > I set TAC32 to show the difference between GPS time and the PC time. > > I get a consistent difference of .825 seconds. I have calculated the > cable losses from the antenna and they don't seem to be able to > account for all of that. > > Anyone have any ideas?? > > On a difference note, just last night I was able to locate two > events using nothing but the small array!! I will try to update the web > page this weekend. > > Regards, > > angel > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: from Angel in Panama From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 07:02:23 -0500 Hello Keith, Thank you for you convincing e-mail. I have done a bit more work and even gone so far as to re-read the TAC32 documentation. I think I see what the main display is telling me. I also got out the scope and found the PPS signal at the right places and now think I understand things a bit better. In the end I will have to caulk up some of my confusion to WinOncore. While in the MotBin mode a selftest with WinOncore reported nothing was working. Still does. I am back no to TAC32 with a 1pps and again feel that it is all the accuracy that I need. Saturday, May 3, 2003, 8:44:23 PM, you wrote: k> NTP offsets of 100's of milliseconds are not unusual. It depends on how far k> away the server is. The server wherever it is is far away, believe me, sometimes I think live at the ends of the earth. Can't even get a resistor sometimes. k> Can you tell me more about how you have Tardis k> configured? Tardis is just set up to get the time from the Naval server and set the pc's clock, nothing fancy. I have several station that do not have GPS's and need to continue to use Tardis and NPT. I now can see that I may have to figure out how to make some corrections to the station. Seislog, the data capture software I use, will allow me to give the station a time correction. I just need to figure out what I want that correction to be. While I was comparing the TAC32/GPS to TARDIS/NPT the difference was quite stable and consistent at -.0820 seconds. k> Just telling it to set the time every second may not do what k> you want. Most NTP client software tries to keep the PC clock within a k> second of UTC. k> GPS by itself can deliver time well below a microsecond without any trouble, k> better if you have a good receiver. I used to work for TrueTime (now a k> division of Symmetricom) and we and our competitors claim accuracy in the k> area of 25 nanoseconds RMS, 100 ns peak. Many of them use Motorola OnCore k> receivers to get there. k> The real trick is getting the time from the receiver to the PC. If you just k> use the serial message, all of the precision from the GPS has gone out the k> window. Yes, I came to that realization a while back. GPS without 1pps is worse than NTP. k> Some people use the 1 Pulse Per Second (PPS) output from the k> receiver into one of the RS-232 control lines on the PC serial port to k> improve the timing. Then they dig deep into the PC to use the interrupts k> for the best response. Even then, you can't get the PC's clock set closer k> than a few milliseconds. The people who wrote TAC32 claim 25 milliseconds, k> which is pretty reasonable. k> Based on your setup, I would question Tardis and NTP before TAC32 and GPS. k> At these levels, you can ignore cable delay from the antenna. Even 300 k> meters of cable will only shift the time about a microsecond or so. Thanks for for getting me back on track. warmly, angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Concrete testing done From: beezaur beezaur@.......... Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 16:16:17 -0700 Hi all, I don't know if you remember, but I was asking about making the base of a Lehman type seismometer out of concrete earlier. This particular mix is useful because it is seismically quiet, being relatively homogenous for lack of gravel. I made up two batches of concrete and tested it today at my engineering school. Below is a summary of the results. Concrete type: "Low noise" mix of cement powder and sand only. Ingredients by mass are 1:1:0.4-0.5 cement:sand:water. Cement was generic "type I/II" from the local hardware store; sand was recycled crushed concrete (not the best, but easily available). The mix was prepared in a buket with a trowel. It had the consistency of cookie dough - about at the limit of being mixable by hand. Two mixes were tested, 0.4 water/cement (w/c) by mass, and 0.5 w/c. Three cyliners were cast of each mix: 3" dia, 6" tall. They were tested to failure in axial compression at 5 weeks age (not quite moist cure) on a 300,000 lb testing machine. I'll probably go to Hell for it, but I did not cap the ends with testing compound. The strength of plain-ended cylinders is perhaps 20% lower than the real copmressive strength, and is highly variable. results: 0.5 w/c: 5400 psi test, maybe 6500 psi corrected for end conditions 0.4 w/c: 6250 psi test, 7500 psi corrected For comparison, concrete from a truck should be 3000-4000 psi. "Back yard, wet-mixed" concrete is usually less than 1000 psi. This is very strong stuff. Other engineering properties are: estimated tensile strength: 600 psi estimated elastic modulus: 5e6 psi (1/6 as stiff as steel) specific weight: 8.4e-2 lbs/in^3 or 145 lb/ft^3 Translation: You can cast whatever you want out of this mix, so long as you vibrate it adequately to remove air pockets according to the intended purpose. The section I am designing for my Lehman base will weigh ~ 68 lbs at 36" length and will at least as stiff as any available steel section (like I-beams or structural tubing) of the same weight. If this proves to be adequately noise-free, it will be a very cheap (cement and sand cost <$20) way to build very stiff structural members. Scott -- A day without math is like a day without sunshine. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Concrete testing done From: "Daryl P. Dacko" mycrump@........ Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:46:04 -0400 At 04:16 PM 5/5/03 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all, >Translation: You can cast whatever you want out of this mix, so long as >you vibrate it adequately to remove air pockets according to the >intended purpose. The section I am designing for my Lehman base will >weigh ~ 68 lbs at 36" length and will at least as stiff as any available >steel section (like I-beams or structural tubing) of the same weight. >If this proves to be adequately noise-free, it will be a very cheap >(cement and sand cost <$20) way to build very stiff structural members. I tried casting a large table out of a very simular mix, for some holography experiments, and had a lot of problems with flexure during the cure. It finally settled down after a few months, but I still see some seasonal flexure due to temperature and humidity diffrences. I think that a pre-stressed approach would be a lot better, but of course, it would remove a lot of the reasons for useing concrete to begin with. The table was 4' by 8' by 3 1/2 inches thick... For what it's worth, Daryl __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Concrete testing done From: beezaur beezaur@.......... Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 21:09:43 -0700 Daryl P. Dacko wrote: > At 04:16 PM 5/5/03 -0700, you wrote: > > I tried casting a large table out of a very simular mix, for some holography > experiments, and had a lot of problems with flexure during the cure. > > It finally settled down after a few months, but I still see some seasonal > flexure due to temperature and humidity diffrences. > > I think that a pre-stressed approach would be a lot better, (. . .) > > For what it's worth, > > Daryl > Exactly. The section I am using is similar to a post-tensioned prestressed box beam bridge section. It is a triangle-hexagon that is hollow with tension rods running both inside and out, but not in contact with the concrete, to keep all parts of the section under axial compression. There will be eight 1/4" rods running parallel to the beam, attaching to angles (Ls) at the beam end, clamping the beam axially. The Ls will be about 2 inches on a side, ~3/16 inch thick. This is a lousy way to describe a shape, but the following are the coords of its vertices and rod centers in inches: Perimeter:{(1.6,0),(4.6,5),(4,6),(-4,6),(-4.6,5),(-1.6,0)} Hollow:{(1,1),(3.1,4.5),(2.8,5),(-2.8,5),(-3.1,4.5),(-1,1)} Rods @.............................................. for neg. x]} Ls (4 of them) go at the top and bottom of each end of the beam. Leveling screws go through the bottom Ls. A little funky, but cheap, strong, and rigid. You may have been seeing some aggravated creep in your table. Most concretes creep significantly for several years, depending on the load. I will be interested to see if my section will be stable enough. One thing that worries me is the trapped air - there was an awful lot of it in my test cylinders. Another is various behaviors of steel vs. concrete, like thermal expansion and reaction to humidity. Time will tell. Scott -- A day without math is like a day without sunshine. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Concrete testing done From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 08:13:19 EDT In a message dated 06/05/03, beezaur@.......... writes: > I will be interested to see if my section will be stable enough. One thing > that worries me is the trapped air - there was an awful lot of it in my > test cylinders. Hi Scott, Thanks for the excellent Info on the Concrete tests. I have attached a 1/4" to 3/8" rod with slightly eccentric end section to a variable low speed electric drill and used that to puddle / vibrate the cement and get a lot of the air out. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 06/05/= 03, beezaur@.......... writes:

I will be interested to see= if my section will be stable enough. One thing that worries me is the trapp= ed air - there was an awful lot of it in my test cylinders.

Hi Scott,

     Thanks for the excellent Info on the Conc= rete tests.

     I have attached a 1/4" to 3/8" rod with s= lightly eccentric end section to a variable low speed electric drill and use= d that to puddle / vibrate the cement and get a lot of the air out.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: Update on the Volcan Baru Array From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Fri, 9 May 2003 21:20:00 -0500 Hello Everyone, It's working!! I have the array about 98% done and have added to the web page. If you have seen most it just click on the "May 8th, 2003" link at the top of the page and you will be taken to the new stuff. This page has lots of pictures and can be slow to load. www.volcanbaru.com/array/array.html I still have lots tweaking to do and I sure wish the whole thing was on bedrock but it's hear and nearly done. If anyone wants access to the array data let me know. As always, any and all comments welcome. Best regards, angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Update on the Volcan Baru Array From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 07:31:41 EDT Hi Angel, You might try painting eyes and teeth on the side of the seis boxes to keep animals off? Add an electricity warning sign to the top to discourage humans? Regards, Chris Hi Angel,

      You might try painting eyes and tee= th on the side of the seis boxes to keep animals off? Add an electricity war= ning sign to the top to discourage humans?

      Regards,

      Chris Subject: Re: Update on the Volcan Baru Array From: Karl Cunningham karlc@.......... Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 11:19:21 -0700 Angel -- Your array is getting more impressive all the time. Your electronics puts a lot of commercial equipment to shame. Congratulations on your tremendous work. And thanks for documenting it so thoroughly for the rest of us. Karl Cunningham --On Friday, May 09, 2003 21:20 -0500 "a.rodriguez" wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > It's working!! > > I have the array about 98% done and have added to the web page. If > you have seen most it just click on the "May 8th, 2003" link at the top > of the page and you will be taken to the new stuff. This page has lots > of pictures and can be slow to load. > > www.volcanbaru.com/array/array.html > > I still have lots tweaking to do and I sure wish the whole thing was > on bedrock but it's hear and nearly done. > > If anyone wants access to the array data let me know. > > As always, any and all comments welcome. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Intrusion detection From: Thomas W Leiper twleiper@........ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 21:39:55 -0400 Somebody was in terested in intrusion detection a couple weeks ago... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2174208368&category=58 7 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Print Alarm From: "Randall Pratt" rpratt@............. Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 23:45:37 -0500 Greetings, Does anyone have experience alarming a printer to buzz or flash a light = when a job prints at a remote printer? Can I simply tap the printer = busy pin on the parallel port to switch a small relay?
Greetings,
 
Does anyone have experience alarming a = printer to=20 buzz or flash a light when a job prints at a remote printer?  Can I = simply=20 tap the printer busy pin on the parallel port to switch a small=20 relay?
Subject: Re: Print Alarm From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 22:18:27 -0700 Randall, I think this is a little off topic for the Public Seismic Network = mailing list. -Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Randall Pratt=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: Print Alarm Greetings, Does anyone have experience alarming a printer to buzz or flash a = light when a job prints at a remote printer? Can I simply tap the = printer busy pin on the parallel port to switch a small relay?
Randall,
 
I think this is a little off topic for = the Public=20 Seismic Network mailing list.
 
-Larry Cochrane
Redwood City, PSN
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Randall=20 Pratt
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:45 = PM
Subject: Print Alarm

Greetings,
 
Does anyone have experience alarming = a printer to=20 buzz or flash a light when a job prints at a remote printer?  Can = I=20 simply tap the printer busy pin on the parallel port to switch a small = relay?
Subject: Re: Print Alarm From: Ian Smith ian@........... Date: Mon, 12 May 2003 19:31:08 +0100 I did a quick google search on "printer port" and the very first link it came up with is certainly worth checking out, http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/par/

The rest looked quite usefull too...

Ian Smith

Larry Cochrane wrote:
Randall,
 
I think this is a little off topic for the Public Seismic Network mailing list.
 
-Larry Cochrane
Redwood City, PSN
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:45 PM
Subject: Print Alarm

Greetings,
 
Does anyone have experience alarming a printer to buzz or flash a light when a job prints at a remote printer?  Can I simply tap the printer busy pin on the parallel port to switch a small relay?

Subject: Tiltometer From: "John D Nelson" jnelson@................. Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:16:55 -0500 In case anyone is interested, there is what looks like a pretty good circuit using in the current issue of Nuts and Volts. The 4 MH RF generator and detector/amplifier circuit look like something that could be easily adapted to a conventional seismometer. The instrument they describe uses liquid mercury and has a period of about 24 seconds. They describe it as sensitive enough to register earth tides. =20

In case anyone is interested, there is what looks = like a pretty good circuit using in the current issue of Nuts and Volts.  = The 4 MH RF generator and detector/amplifier circuit look like something that = could be easily adapted to a conventional seismometer.  The instrument = they describe uses liquid mercury and has a period of about 24 seconds.  = They describe it as sensitive enough to register earth = tides.

 

=00 Subject: Tiltometer From: Kplblange@....... Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:22:57 EDT How do I get to Nuts and Bolts to see the information on the tiltometer? Ken Lange of Gardena, CA __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltometer From: "James Hannon" jmhannon@......... Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:40:26 -0500 http://www.nutsvolts.com/ You will probably have to buy the mag. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Kplblange@....... Reply-To: psn-l@.............. Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 16:22:57 EDT > How do I get to Nuts and Bolts to see the information on the tiltometer? >Ken Lange of Gardena, CA -- Jim Hannon http://www.fmtcs.com/web/jmhannon/ 42,11.90N,91,39.26W WB0TXL -- __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltometer From: "testology" testology@........... Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 15:49:45 -0700 Try going to the website. This is a monthly tabloid that appears free in little newstands all over California, try your local Fry's or even Radio Shack, Ham radio place, that kind of thing. I'm not sure about elsewhere. It's a fair little magazine and worth subscribing to. From what I've seen it doesn't appear to be unfairly weighted in favor of any particular branch of electronics, and there are tons of ads in the back. And I'm a 30-year veteran of the US electronics industry, I like it. -- Tom Detweiler in Grass Valley CA ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:22 PM Subject: Tiltometer How do I get to Nuts and Bolts to see the information on the tiltometer? Ken Lange of Gardena, CA __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltometer From: "Daryl P. Dacko" mycrump@........ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 20:56:36 -0400 At 03:49 PM 5/19/03 -0700, you wrote: >Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:22 PM >Subject: Tiltometer How do I get to Nuts and Bolts to see the information >on the tiltometer? >Ken Lange of Gardena, CA This tiltometer sounds very much like the one described in one of Scientific American's old "Amatuer Scientist" columns... You can get the entire collection of columns back to the '20's for about $30 now days, on CD rom. No experimentaist should be without it. Daryl __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Tiltometer From: "Daryl P. Dacko" mycrump@........ Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 21:16:34 -0400 At 03:49 PM 5/19/03 -0700, you wrote: >This tiltometer sounds very much like the one described in one of >Scientific American's old "Amatuer Scientist" columns... Oops, the article is in Nov, 1973 Scientific American... The instrument described is only two feet, center to cener, and is described as being used to monitor earth tilt due to a volcano. It's also used as as siesmometer, and is said to be sensitive enough to monitor the earth tide. The electronics are a bit dated, but would work as described. Daryl __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Fwd: SRL Electronic Seismologist for Jan/Feb 2003 From: hammond hammond@........... Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:13:25 -0800 Everyone, This is an email I sent to Dr. Tom Owen, author of the Electronic Seismologist column contained in the publication Seismic Research Letters, Seismological Society of America. You can see the particular column I refer to at http://www.seismosoc.org/publications/SRL/SRL_74/srl_74-1_es.html Regards, Bob Hammond Public Seismic Network - Alaska http://apsn.awcable.com Fairbanks, AK >Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:05:08 -0800 >To: owens@...... >From: hammond >Subject: SRL Electronic Seismologist for Jan/Feb 2003 > >Hi Tom, > >With regard to the Electronic Seismologist for Jan/Feb 2003, I wanted to >draw your attention to the computer "helicorder" program WinSDR in use by >many of the 90+ members of the Public Seismic Network. WinSDR, and it's >DOS predecessor SDR, has been in use for quite some time. WinSDR has many >outstanding features above and beyond it's "helicorder" display such as >high sample rates, digital filtering, STA/LTA triggering, and more. I am >somewhat chagrined that no mention of this highly useful software was made >in your column. > >Larry Cochrane is the author of WinSDR and it's companion WinQuake, a >seismic analysis package. You can see his work at >http://psn.quake.net/winsdr/index.html. > > >Regards, > >Bob Hammond >Public Seismic Network - Alaska >http://apsn.awcable.com >Fairbanks, AK __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Lehman and manometer tiltmeters From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 13:12:34 EDT Hi there, A Lehman type tiltmeter and a twin 30 m arm water manometer type tiltmeter, both capable of good performance in measuring earth tides, are fully described by M Kato in 'Observations of Crustal Movements by Newly-Designed Horizontal Pendulum and Water-Tube Tiltmeters with Electromagnetic Transducers', Bull. Disas. Prev. Res. Inst., Kyoto Univ, V 27, part 4, No. 252, 1977, pp 155 to 171. I was able to get a reprint of this paper through my local library services. He also compares the outputs of the two meters over a month. One problem with earth tide measurements is that there are two frequency components which give a beat type response, so the net component is not a simple sinusoid. And it changes from day to day. Another problem is that relatively small sensors like Lehmans are very sensitive to purely local ground tilts, which may be produced by solar radiation / temperature changes, frost, ground movement due to rain, changes in ground loading, where you park your car, etc. The earth tides give tilts of just 50 to 100 nano radians. The Lehman described uses a 225 mm pendulum extended to about 6.4 sec - gain ~45 - 1.27 deg. It could be an advantage to use a longer period to increase the tilt sensitivity. This would increase responses to the Ocean background signal and to seismic signals, which you don't really want to know. I presume that this period was chosen to minimise the response to Love and Rayleigh earthquake waves. You might wish to use electromagnetic rather than oil damping. The tilt sensitivity is proportional to the inverse of the angle that the suspension axis makes with the vertical, expressed in radians. If the sensor deflection is d, the period is T, for a tilt r radians, d = 248 x T^2 x r mm. For the above example, d is about a micron. If you could increase the period to 20 sec, you would get about 10 microns. One important point to remember is that your sensors have to be sensitive to DC components and must have excellent long term drift stability. The simple coil / magnet sensors usually used on Lehmans will not sense these very slow signals. You could modify a LX1358 LVDT Kit from http://www.nuovaelettronica.it/ (basic circuit gives ~0.3 mV / micron which can be amplified by 100) or by modifying a NE5521 LVDT circuit to use capacitative sensor plates. Or by using a 7.4 sq mm differential photodiode setup with a small tungsten filament bulb. Resonant circuit capacitative detectors like those described with the SG seismometers and in the recent 'tiltometer' postings, are unlikely to have adequate long term temperature stability to give reliable results. You also need very good quality hinges for the arm and fine adjustment for your base setup screws. You don't measure the ground displacement as you do for an earthquake, you measure the change in the tilt angle of the sensor and low pass filter reject any other disturbances. A suitable filter can be made with three 4.7 muF polyester capacitors and four 10 M Ohm resistors, but you need an opamp with a very low bias current, like a LMC6001 or LPC661. It is tedious waiting for a filter of this sort to stabilise. A rapid zero setup method could involve providing bypass setup resistors of 100 K Ohm in series with reed relays across the 20 M Ohm filter resistors. You also need very low leakage currents on your PC boards and electrometer type ring shielding of the pins. The circuit is a Sallen and Key type with unity gain. The input is 20 M Ohm resistor connected to two 4.7 muF capacitors to the output and a connection to the second 20 M Ohm resistor. This is connected to the +ve opamp input and a 4.7 muF capacitor to earth. In comparison, the 30 m water manometer gives about 3 microns change for a tilt of 100 nano radians. Very good temperature stability is required. These are very small signals. Regards, Chris Chapman Hi there,

      A Lehman type tiltmeter and a twin=20= 30 m arm water manometer type tiltmeter, both capable of good performance in= measuring earth tides, are fully described by M Kato in 'Observations of Cr= ustal Movements by Newly-Designed Horizontal Pendulum and Water-Tube Tiltmet= ers with Electromagnetic Transducers', Bull. Disas. Prev. Res. Inst., Kyoto=20= Univ, V 27, part 4, No. 252, 1977, pp 155 to 171. I was able to get a reprin= t of this paper through my local library services.=20
     He also compares the outputs of the two m= eters over a month. One problem with earth tide measurements is that there a= re two frequency components which give a beat type response, so the net comp= onent is not a simple sinusoid. And it changes from day to day. Another prob= lem is that relatively small sensors like Lehmans are very sensitive to pure= ly local ground tilts, which may be produced by solar radiation / temperatur= e changes, frost, ground movement due to rain, changes in ground loading, wh= ere you park your car, etc. The earth tides give tilts of just 50 to 100 nan= o radians.
     The Lehman described uses a 225 mm pendul= um extended to about 6.4 sec - gain ~45 - 1.27 deg. It could be an advantage= to use a longer period to increase the tilt sensitivity. This would increas= e responses to the Ocean background signal and to seismic signals, which you= don't really want to know. I presume that this period was chosen to minimis= e the response to Love and Rayleigh earthquake waves. You might wish to use=20= electromagnetic rather than oil damping. The tilt sensitivity is proportiona= l to the inverse of the angle that the suspension axis makes with the vertic= al, expressed in radians. If the sensor deflection is d, the period is T, fo= r a tilt r radians, d =3D 248 x T^2 x r mm. For the above example, d is abou= t a micron. If you could increase the period to 20 sec, you would get about=20= 10 microns.=20
    One important point to remember is that your se= nsors have to be sensitive to DC components and must have excellent long ter= m drift stability. The simple coil / magnet sensors usually used on Lehmans=20= will not sense these very slow signals. You could modify a LX1358 LVDT Kit f= rom http://www.nuovaelettronica.it/ (basic circuit gives ~0.3 mV / micron wh= ich can be amplified by 100) or by modifying a NE5521 LVDT circuit to use ca= pacitative sensor plates. Or by using a 7.4 sq mm differential photodiode se= tup with a small tungsten filament bulb. Resonant circuit capacitative detec= tors like those described with the SG seismometers and in the recent 'tiltom= eter' postings, are unlikely to have adequate long term temperature stabilit= y to give reliable results. You also need very good quality hinges for the a= rm and fine adjustment for your base setup screws.  
     You don't measure the ground displacement= as you do for an earthquake, you measure the change in the tilt angle of th= e sensor and low pass filter reject any other disturbances. A suitable filte= r can be made with three 4.7 muF polyester capacitors and four 10 M Ohm resi= stors, but you need an opamp with a very low bias current, like a LMC6001 or= LPC661. It is tedious waiting for a filter of this sort to stabilise. A rap= id zero setup method could involve providing bypass setup resistors of 100 K= Ohm in series with reed relays across the 20 M Ohm filter resistors. You al= so need very low leakage currents on your PC boards and electrometer type ri= ng shielding of the pins. The circuit is a Sallen and Key type with unity ga= in. The input is 20 M Ohm resistor connected to two 4.7 muF capacitors to th= e output and a connection to the second 20 M Ohm resistor. This is connected= to the +ve opamp input and a 4.7 muF capacitor to earth.
      In comparison, the 30 m water manom= eter gives about 3 microns change for a tilt of 100 nano radians. Very good=20= temperature stability is required. These are very small signals.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: WinQuake beta release From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 22:54:30 -0700 Hi Everyone, If you are using one of the older WinQuake beta releases you may be getting a timeout message. I have a new beta release that extends the timeout period. You can download it from here http://www.seismicnet.com/wqdocs/wqbeta.html. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: NASA "QuakeSim" earthquake computer modeling system From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 12:05:25 -0700 John Bluck May 22, 2003 NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif. Phone: 650/604-5026 or 604-9000 E-mail: John.G.Bluck@........ Alan Buis NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif. Phone: 818/354-0474 or 354-5011 E-mail: Alan.D.Buis-116520@............ Release: 03-40AR NEW NASA COMPUTER MODELS MAY IMPROVE EARTHQUAKE FORECASTS Advanced computer simulation tools being developed by NASA and university researchers may soon give scientists new insights into the complex and mysterious physics of earthquakes and enable vastly improved earthquake forecasting. Scientists at NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., together with NASA Ames Research Center, in California's Silicon Valley; NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Md.; and several universities, are developing an advanced earthquake modeling system called QuakeSim. When completed in late 2004, QuakeSim's simulation tools will help scientists learn more about what makes earthquakes happen. "At Ames Research Center we are using the world's largest single system image computer to help JPL develop the software that will be used to create QuakeSim," said Dr. Walt Brooks, chief of the NASA Advanced Supercomputing Division at NASA Ames. "This one-of-a-kind supercomputer is the result of a three-year joint development effort by NASA's Office of Earth Science and the Office of Aerospace Technology," Brooks added. The tools are based on the latest technologies. For example, one uses finite element analysis, which solves complex computer modeling problems by breaking them into small pieces. For QuakeSim, the finite elements are comprised of tens to hundreds of thousands of measurements that show how Earth's crust deforms in response to movement of the giant tectonic plates Earth's landmasses ride upon. The measurements are gathered through both ground- and space-based techniques. The latter include global positioning system and interferometric synthetic aperture radar, which measure the 'quiet' (non-earthquake) motions associated with plate tectonics and the quake cycle. QuakeSim principal investigator Dr. Andrea Donnellan of JPL calls QuakeSim a vital step toward eventual earthquake forecasting. "The deformation of Earth's crust and the interaction between quake faults is a complex 3-D process happening on timescales of minutes to thousands of years," she said. "Studying it requires sophisticated simulation models and high-performance supercomputers. The availability of space-based data and our current limited understanding of quake processes make this an ideal time to develop a system for studying deformation processes such as tectonics, quakes and volcanoes." "New quake models developed under QuakeSim are expected to yield future earthquake forecasts that will be used by a variety of federal and state agencies to develop decision support tools to help mitigate losses from future large earthquakes," Donnellan added. QuakeSim's three major simulation tools are Park, Virtual California and the Geophysical Finite Element Simulation Tool (Geofest). Park simulates the evolution of a quake on a single, unstable fault over time. It is based on current knowledge of the rate of movement (or 'slip') and friction on a well-studied section of the San Andreas Fault in Parkfield, Calif., but it is applicable to any fault or collection of faults. Park will be the tool of choice for researchers seeking to determine the nature and detectability of quake warning signals. It will determine how stress is distributed over a fault and how it is redistributed by quakes or 'quiet' seismic motion. It also can be used to compute the history of slip, slip speed and stress on a fault. Up to 1,024 computer processors will be used in parallel to demonstrate Park's capability. Virtual California simulates how California's hundreds of independent fault segments interact and allows scientists to determine correlated patterns of activity that can be used to forecast seismic hazard, especially for quakes of magnitude 6 or greater. Patterns from the simulated data are compared to patterns in real data to strengthen understanding of the quake process. The approach's potential is already being demonstrated. Under a joint NASA/Department of Energy study lead by Dr. John Rundle, director of the Center for Computational Science and Engineering at the University of California at Davis, Virtual California was used to identify regions of the state with elevated probabilities of quakes over the next decade. Since the study was completed in 2000, all of California's five largest quakes of magnitude 5 or greater have occurred within 11 kilometers (6.8 miles) of these sites. The probability of this occurring randomly is about one in 100,000. The last three of these quakes occurred after the forecast map was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in February 2002. Geofest creates 2-D and 3-D models of stress and strain in Earth's crust and upper mantle in a complex geologic region with many interacting fault systems. It shows how the ground will deform in response to a quake, how deformation changes over time following a quake, and the net effects to the ground from a series of quakes. The entire southern California system of interacting faults will be analyzed, covering a portion of the crust approximately 1,000 kilometers (621 miles) on a side. The simulation will require millions of equations and hundreds of computer processors. In addition to JPL, the QuakeSim team includes the Davis and Irvine campuses of the University of California; Brown University, Providence, R.I.; Indiana University; and the University of Southern California. An independent review board provides oversight. Codes will be run on supercomputers at NASA's Goddard, Ames and JPL facilities and other institutions. The California Institute of Technology in Pasadena manages JPL for NASA. NASA's Earth Science Enterprise is dedicated to understanding Earth as an integrated system and applying Earth system science to improve prediction of climate, weather and natural hazards using the unique vantage point of space. A primary goal of NASA's solid Earth science program is assessment and mitigation of natural hazards. QuakeSim supports the enterprise's goal of developing predictive capabilities for quake hazards. To learn more, see: http://quakesim.jpl.nasa.gov and http://pat.jpl.nasa.gov/public/RIVA/ -end- To receive Ames news releases, send an email with the word "subscribe" in the subject line to: ames-releases-request@................... To receive radio alerts, send a similar "subscribe" email to: NASAradio-request@................... To unsubscribe, send an email to the list from which you would like to be removed with "unsubscribe" in the subject line. Also, the NASA Ames News homepage at URL, http://amesnews.arc.nasa.gov includes news releases and JPEG images in AP Leaf Desk format minus embedded caption. > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: seismic_dataqRev051203 From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 25 May 2003 13:57:36 -0600 Hi Bob, This has been a rough month in many ways. On April 22 my father died. On May 19 my Aunt (his sister) died. Then on May 21 when I returned home from California I found that my jjlahr.com domain had not been transferred to alldomains.com. In addition, my web hosting company, FeaturePrice.com, terminated my web site without notice and went out of business at the same time. They sold out to another company, but technically still "own" the domain and since neither they or the new owner are responding to E-mail or phone calls it is impossible to renew this domain name quickly. I'm setting up a new domain name, jclahr.com, and this time I will be the owner. I've also signed up with a new web hosting company, iPowerWeb.com. However, they have not assigned a permanent IP address for jclahr.com so I can't upload my site yet. This will probably happen Tuesday at the earliest due to the long weekend. When it does, I'll switch to the latest seismic_dataq.zip version. Yours, John At 09:17 PM 5/12/2003, Bobhelenmcclure@....... wrote: >Hi John, > > The modified zip file is attached. Please replace the entire zip > file now posted on your site, called "seismic_dataq.zip". > > Regards, > >Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer From: Frank Gentges =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=D8BRA?= fgentges@.............. Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 12:59:06 -0400 Hi, I have had an interest in setting up a seismograph for some time. That=20 interest was suddenly fired into full force when I happened upon a Teledyne= =20 Geotech BB13 broadband sensor on a hamfest swap table several weeks ago. I= =20 am now working on a seismograph setup in my spare time. I contacted Geotech (who is now free of the Teledyne connection) for a=20 manual. After some searching effort they provided me with a manual. They= =20 indicated the unit is obsolete and this may be the last manual they=20 have. Geotech was kind enough to give me permission to post my scan of the= =20 manual to the internet for public access. Larry Cochrane agreed to post my file to the Redwood City Public Seismic=20 Network web page at For download. The manual includes a lot of advice on setting the unit up and detailed=20 schematics of the mechanical structure and electronics. Even if you do not= =20 have one of these you may find it instructive on the operation, design and= =20 construction of the unit. I have a nice high speed commercial scanner and I can scan other such=20 documents for public use by the group. We will need to obtain permissions= =20 to avoid putting Larry in an uncomfortable (or worse) position. Enjoy, Frank Frank Gentges K=D8BRA LF web site at __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Winquake question From: RLLaney@....... Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:37:41 EDT Hi Larry: I have noticed on the latest version of Winquake (and previous versions where the option was available) that I can't consistently open two or more files of the same event in a single window. It seems to work on some events but not on others. When multiple files on the same event fail to open in the same window, they all open, but the windows are full sized and stacked. I wonder if others have experienced this also? Thanks. Bob Laney Hi Larry:

I have noticed on the latest version of Winquake (and previous versions wher= e the option was available) that I can't consistently open two or more files= of the same event in a single window.  It seems to work on some events= but not on others.  When multiple files on the same event fail to open= in the same window, they all open, but the windows are full sized and stack= ed.

I wonder if others have experienced this also?

Thanks.

Bob Laney
 Subject: Re: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:28:10 -0500 Hello Frank, Thank for doing this scan and post. I have a s-500 but only have the most rudimentary info on it. angel Monday, May 26, 2003, 11:59:06 AM, you wrote: FGK> Hi, FGK> I have had an interest in setting up a seismograph for some time. That FGK> interest was suddenly fired into full force when I happened upon a Teledyne FGK> Geotech BB13 broadband sensor on a hamfest swap table several weeks ago. I FGK> am now working on a seismograph setup in my spare time. FGK> I contacted Geotech (who is now free of the Teledyne connection) for a FGK> manual. After some searching effort they provided me with a manual. They FGK> indicated the unit is obsolete and this may be the last manual they FGK> have. Geotech was kind enough to give me permission to post my scan of the FGK> manual to the internet for public access. FGK> Larry Cochrane agreed to post my file to the Redwood City Public Seismic FGK> Network web page at __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: another big event From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 06:28:54 +1000 another big event rolling in P arrival in Sydney Australia 19:28.5 UTC looks like SW Pacific cheers Dave __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Winquake question From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:32:17 -0700 Hi Bob, To add an event file to the same window the file must have the same = start time, number of samples, sample rate and sensor type = (acceleration, velocity displacement) as the file that is already being = displayed. If any of those header fields are different, WinQuake will = not add the file to the same window. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RLLaney@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 12:37 PM Subject: Winquake question Hi Larry: I have noticed on the latest version of Winquake (and previous = versions where the option was available) that I can't consistently open = two or more files of the same event in a single window. It seems to = work on some events but not on others. When multiple files on the same = event fail to open in the same window, they all open, but the windows = are full sized and stacked. I wonder if others have experienced this also? Thanks. Bob Laney
Hi Bob,
 
To add an event file to the same window = the file=20 must have the same start time, number of samples, sample rate and = sensor=20 type (acceleration, velocity displacement) as the file that is already = being=20 displayed. If any of those header fields are different, WinQuake will=20 not add the file to the same window.
 
Regards,
Larry Cochrane
Redwood City, PSN 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RLLaney@.......=20
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 = 12:37 PM
Subject: Winquake = question

Hi Larry:

I have noticed on the latest = version of=20 Winquake (and previous versions where the option was available) that I = can't=20 consistently open two or more files of the same event in a single=20 window.  It seems to work on some events but not on others.  = When=20 multiple files on the same event fail to open in the same window, they = all=20 open, but the windows are full sized and stacked.

I wonder if = others=20 have experienced this also?

Thanks.

Bob=20 Laney
 Subject: Re: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer From: Gary Thurmond w6str@....... Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 21:15:25 -0700 "I have had an interest in setting up a seismograph for some time." Likewise here Frank. I was thinking about which system to build first when I found a BB-13. It is a beautifully crafted instrument. The manual I have for it is dated "Revised 12 February 1990". So far with a quick look I have not found a difference in the one you and Larry posted. I'll check again and see if there is anything different. I was fortunate to find a problem with my BB-13 before operating it. It arrived setup in the horizontal configuration. The manual states do not ship it in the horizontal configuration. So this was a concern! However there is a modification in this BB-13 not described in the manual that allows safe shipping in the horizontal configuration. After the change over to vertical configuration I noticed there was a stickyness to the vertical oscillation when perturbed. That turned out to be some rusty iron particles rubbing between the coil and the magnet poles. Some disassembly and cleaning with toothpicks warped with Scotch Tape removed the particles. There was only minor visible damage to the coil. No cut or shorted turns. A photo of the BB-13 with Can Removed - http://www.mcn.org/m/w6str/bb-13.html Gary Thurmond, W6STR Frank Gentges KØBRA wrote: > Hi, > > I have had an interest in setting up a seismograph for some time. That > interest was suddenly fired into full force when I happened upon a Teledyne > Geotech BB13 broadband sensor on a hamfest swap table several weeks ago. I > am now working on a seismograph setup in my spare time. > > I contacted Geotech (who is now free of the Teledyne connection) for a > manual. After some searching effort they provided me with a manual. They > indicated the unit is obsolete and this may be the last manual they > have. Geotech was kind enough to give me permission to post my scan of the > manual to the internet for public access. > > Larry Cochrane agreed to post my file to the Redwood City Public Seismic > Network web page at > > > > For download. > > The manual includes a lot of advice on setting the unit up and detailed > schematics of the mechanical structure and electronics. Even if you do not > have one of these you may find it instructive on the operation, design and > construction of the unit. > > I have a nice high speed commercial scanner and I can scan other such > documents for public use by the group. We will need to obtain permissions > to avoid putting Larry in an uncomfortable (or worse) position. > > Enjoy, > > Frank > > Frank Gentges KØBRA > > LF web site at > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer From: Greg Christenson GChristenson@............ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 13:15:05 -0500 Hello Frank, We currently have a BB-13 setup and running using Larry C's A-D board, filters, and WinSDR. It takes a bit of work to get the setup correct, = and then to keep the mass centered. The BB-13 is very sensitive to thermal changes and will drift hundreds of mv. with just a few degrees of temperature change. Preferred mass centering is +/- 30 mv., and the = only way to achieve this is putting the instrument in a thermally stable = environment. Another thing to watch out for is not to turn the mass centering screw = too far as the spring guide pin will come out of the guide, causing damage = to the flexures. The BB-13 is capable of running in master or slave mode when there are multiple BB-13's (Z,E,N), but when running a single unit the jumpers = must be set for master operation. To see some recent events recorded using the BB-13 (OCO2Z) checkout = Larry's "Recent Events" page and look for the Omniplex OCO2Z sensor ID. http://www.seismicnet.com/cgi-dos/event.exe The BB-13 seismograph is in the shadow zone of the 7.0 Halmahera event yesterday but clearly recorded wave periods from 2 to 28 seconds. Greg Christenson NEIC station code OCO Omniplex Science Museum http://www.omniplex.org/OCOdata -----Original Message----- From: Frank Gentges K=D8BRA [mailto:fgentges@.................. Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 11:59 AM To: PSN-L@.............. Subject: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer Hi, I have had an interest in setting up a seismograph for some time. That = interest was suddenly fired into full force when I happened upon a = Teledyne=20 Geotech BB13 broadband sensor on a hamfest swap table several weeks = ago. I=20 am now working on a seismograph setup in my spare time. .... RE: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer

Hello Frank,
We currently have a BB-13 setup and running using = Larry C's A-D board, filters, and WinSDR. It takes a bit of work to get = the setup correct, and then to keep the mass centered. The BB-13 is = very sensitive to thermal changes and will drift hundreds of mv. with = just a few degrees of temperature change. Preferred mass centering is = +/- 30 mv., and the only way to achieve this is putting the instrument = in a thermally stable environment.

Another thing to watch out for is not to turn the = mass centering screw too far as the spring guide pin will come out of = the guide, causing damage to the flexures.

The BB-13 is capable of running in master or slave = mode when there are multiple BB-13's (Z,E,N), but when running a single = unit the jumpers must be set for master operation.

To see some recent events recorded using the BB-13 = (OCO2Z) checkout Larry's "Recent Events" page and look for = the Omniplex OCO2Z sensor ID. http://www.seismicnet.com/cgi-dos/event.exe=

The BB-13 seismograph is in the shadow zone of the = 7.0 Halmahera event yesterday but clearly recorded wave periods from 2 = to 28 seconds.

Greg Christenson
NEIC station code OCO
Omniplex Science Museum
http://www.omniplex.org/OCOdata


-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Gentges K=D8BRA [mailto:fgentges@..............]
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 11:59 AM
To: PSN-L@..............
Subject: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer


Hi,

I have had an interest in setting up a seismograph = for some time.  That
interest was suddenly fired into full force when I = happened upon a Teledyne
Geotech BB13 broadband sensor on a hamfest swap = table several weeks ago. I
am now working on a seismograph setup in my spare = time.

...

Subject: RE: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer From: Frank Gentges =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=D8BRA?= fgentges@.............. Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:27:54 -0400 Greg, Nice to hear from you. I picked up your site on a Google search for the=20 BB13. I try to drop by each day to see the seismic activity at OCO. I saw the recent Virginia event and I think I saw the big event in Algeria= =20 although the times don't seem quite right. It looks like a nice museum display you have set up there. I might try to= =20 drop by sometime. I visit Missouri several times a year. Thanks for the tips. The last thing I need is a broken flexure. I am thinking about using Larry's A/D. Did you find the filters that=20 useful? Do you run a lot of gain between the BB13 and the A/D? Frank At 01:15 PM 5/27/03 -0500, you wrote: >Hello Frank, >We currently have a BB-13 setup and running using Larry C's A-D board,=20 >filters, and WinSDR. It takes a bit of work to get the setup correct, and= =20 >then to keep the mass centered. The BB-13 is very sensitive to thermal=20 >changes and will drift hundreds of mv. with just a few degrees of=20 >temperature change. Preferred mass centering is +/- 30 mv., and the only=20 >way to achieve this is putting the instrument in a thermally stable=20 >environment. > >Another thing to watch out for is not to turn the mass centering screw too= =20 >far as the spring guide pin will come out of the guide, causing damage to= =20 >the flexures. > >The BB-13 is capable of running in master or slave mode when there are=20 >multiple BB-13's (Z,E,N), but when running a single unit the jumpers must= =20 >be set for master operation. > >To see some recent events recorded using the BB-13 (OCO2Z) checkout=20 >Larry's "Recent Events" page and look for the Omniplex OCO2Z sensor ID.=20 >http://www.seismicnet.com/cgi-= dos/event.exe > >The BB-13 seismograph is in the shadow zone of the 7.0 Halmahera event=20 >yesterday but clearly recorded wave periods from 2 to 28 seconds. > >Greg Christenson >NEIC station code OCO >Omniplex Science Museum >http://www.omniplex.org/OCOdata > >-----Original Message----- >From: Frank Gentges K=D8BRA=20 >[mailto:fgentges@............... >Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 11:59 AM >To: PSN-L@.............. >Subject: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer > >Hi, > >I have had an interest in setting up a seismograph for some time. That >interest was suddenly fired into full force when I happened upon a Teledyne >Geotech BB13 broadband sensor on a hamfest swap table several weeks ago. I >am now working on a seismograph setup in my spare time. > >... Frank Gentges K=D8BRA LF web site at __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer From: Greg Christenson GChristenson@............ Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 17:10:09 -0500 Frank, I highly recommend Larry's A-D board and software. It has been a very reliable system for us for the past 15 months, and we are looking into = the feasibility of converting many of the remote paper drum OGS sites to = digital using the same system. We are in an urban setting only one mile from a major interstate = highway, so the filters in our location are very beneficial. Currently the gain for OCO2Z is 545 with a 1 Hz 8-pole lp filter, and 100 second 1-pole hp = filter. We are in the process of constructing a new thermally stable = underground seismometer vault, and will most likely remove the hp filter after installation. Greg Christenson=20 NEIC station code OCO=20 Omniplex Science Museum=20 http://www.omniplex.org/OCOdata=20 -----Original Message----- From: Frank Gentges K=D8BRA [mailto:fgentges@.................. Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 4:28 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: RE: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer Greg, Nice to hear from you. I picked up your site on a Google search for = the=20 BB13. I try to drop by each day to see the seismic activity at OCO. I saw the recent Virginia event and I think I saw the big event in = Algeria=20 although the times don't seem quite right. It looks like a nice museum display you have set up there. I might try = to=20 drop by sometime. I visit Missouri several times a year. Thanks for the tips. The last thing I need is a broken flexure. I am thinking about using Larry's A/D. Did you find the filters that=20 useful? Do you run a lot of gain between the BB13 and the A/D? Frank RE: Teledyne Geotech BB13 Seismometer

Frank,
I highly recommend Larry's A-D board and software. = It has been a very reliable system for us for the past 15 months, and = we are looking into the feasibility of converting many of the remote = paper drum OGS sites to digital using the same system.

We are in an urban setting only one mile from a major = interstate highway, so the filters in our location are very beneficial. = Currently the gain for OCO2Z is 545 with a 1 Hz 8-pole lp filter, and = 100 second 1-pole hp filter. We are in the process of constructing a = new thermally stable underground seismometer vault, and will most = likely remove the hp filter after installation.

Greg Christenson
NEIC station code OCO
Omniplex Science Museum
http://www.omniplex.org/OCOdata



-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Gentges K=D8BRA [mailto:fgentges@..............]
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 4:28 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: RE: Teledyne Geotech BB13 = Seismometer


Greg,

Nice to hear from you.  I picked up your site on = a Google search for the
BB13.  I try to drop by each day to see the = seismic activity at OCO.

I saw the recent Virginia event and I think I saw the = big event in Algeria
although the times don't seem quite right.

It looks like a nice museum display you have set up = there.  I might try to
drop by sometime.  I visit Missouri several = times a year.

Thanks for the tips.  The last thing I need is a = broken flexure.

I am thinking about using Larry's A/D.  Did you = find the filters that
useful?  Do you run a lot of gain between the = BB13 and the A/D?

Frank

Subject: WinPlotGPS From: ian@........... Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 15:04:06 +0100 Hi, I've only just discovered this program(!) and tried it with my Delorme Earthmate. I couldn't get it to work, probably for configuration reasons. I know the unit is working as I can use it with my palm pda. There are a few questions and suggestions I'd like to make: Is Earthmate compatible with one of the known devices or should I pick Settings|Options|GPS Type: Other ? What are the implications of choosing Other? Not having a spec for my Earthmate I don't know what baud rate it's running at, does anyone know? I could just plug it in and run Hyperterminal to try to get it. My pda shows the bytes streaming from the receiver. Whilst this is just gobbledegoop (to me) it's very useful in that it shows that the device is running and the bytes are getting in to the software. This would be a useful addition to WinPlotGPS (maybe it already has this feature(?)) Any other suggestions for getting it running would be appreciated. Thanks Ian Smith __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: WinPlotGPS From: Bob Shannon earth@........... Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 08:37:52 -0700 At 03:04 PM 5/28/03 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, > >I've only just discovered this program(!) and tried it with my Delorme >Earthmate. I couldn't get it to work, probably for configuration reasons. I >know the unit is working as I can use it with my palm pda. There are a few >questions and suggestions I'd like to make: > >Is Earthmate compatible with one of the known devices or should I pick >Settings|Options|GPS Type: Other ? No clue but I run mine with my laptop and Topo 4,0 and it works fast and fine.Suggest writing to Delorme. They answer questions very fast. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Nordic format to PSN/SEED From: Henry Bland henry@............... Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:43:04 -0600 Greetings. We recently wrote a hook to the U of Bergen's SEISLOG data logging package to work with our U of Calgary 24bit A/D converter card. We're now happily recording data and creating events in "Nordic format". I'd like to use WinQuake to view these events. Has anyone written a converter from "Nordic format" to PSN or SEED? Hopefully this is a temporary measure until I get Seislog generating PSN type 4 directly... Cheers, Henry Bland Dept of Geology and Geophysics University of Calgary __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: WinPlotGPS From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 21:00:15 -0700 Ian, > Hi, > > I've only just discovered this program(!) and tried it with my Delorme > Earthmate. I couldn't get it to work, probably for configuration reasons. I > know the unit is working as I can use it with my palm pda. There are a few > questions and suggestions I'd like to make: > > Is Earthmate compatible with one of the known devices or should I pick > Settings|Options|GPS Type: Other ? You should use Other for your GPS receiver. > > What are the implications of choosing Other? No predefined initialization command is send to the receiver. > > Not having a spec for my Earthmate I don't know what baud rate it's running at, > does anyone know? I could just plug it in and run Hyperterminal to try to get > it. If the Earthmate outputs standard NMEA messages, the baud rate should be 4800. > > My pda shows the bytes streaming from the receiver. Whilst this is just > gobbledegoop (to me) it's very useful in that it shows that the device is > running and the bytes are getting in to the software. This would be a useful > addition to WinPlotGPS (maybe it already has this feature(?)) > To view the data from the GPS receiver open the NMEA Display window using the View / View Messages menu items. For WinPlotGPS to work with the Earthmate receiver, the receiver must output the follow NMEA messages $GPRMC, $GPGGA, $GPGSA and $GPGSV. In the message viewer window you should see GPS messages like this: $GPRMC,150649,A,3706.7209,N,12127.0521,W,184.2,130.1,280602,14.8,E*5B $GPGGA,150649,3706.7209,N,12127.0521,W,2,03,2.0,4779.3,M,-28.3,M,,*48 $GPGSA,A,2,,06,,,,,23,,,,47,,2.2,2.0,1.0*34 $GPGSV,3,2,11,17,39,256,51,18,07,201,38,23,58,153,46,24,16,056,00*7C Hope this helps. Let me know if you get it working, Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: seismic_dataqRev051203 From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 22:12:56 -0600 Hi Meredith, I've purchased a new domain name (http://jclahr.com/science) (note the jc replaces jj) and have loaded my site again. Still no luck getting jjlahr.com back, so don't try it now or you will get a bunch of advertising windows from DotRegister. This is a really cut-throat and dirty business! I hope to join a class-action law suite against FeaturePrice.com, but the damage can't be reversed. So far Sean's pages are still on the St. Louis server. I hope they'll remain there. http://www.eas.slu.edu/People/STMorrissey/ Cheers, John At 09:49 PM 5/29/2003, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:49:36 -0600 >From: meredithlamb >To: john lahr >Subject: Re: seismic_dataqRev051203 > >Hi John, > >Just got back from a 9 day trip. Sorry to hear of the deaths. > >Sorry to hear of the web site troubles too. Can begin to >associate on the web site troubles, as my old one got >"booted" rather abruptly too. Big difference though, as yours >is very very good, and worth having available. > >In ways.....a web site is rather a "digital representation" of its >creators efforts. Sometimes I wonder what would become >of such sites.....if.....the creator has problems or dies.....it >wouldn't likely be available online again.....and a permanent >loss....... > >Take care, Meredith __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Nordic format to PSN/SEED From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 00:11:27 -0500 Hello Henry, Yes, there is a converter. I am traveling right now but I will try to send it if I can access my machine remotely. Other wise I will send it next Wednesday. With some luck sooner. angel Wednesday, May 28, 2003, 6:43:04 PM, you wrote: HB> Greetings. We recently wrote a hook to the U of Bergen's SEISLOG data HB> logging package to work with our U of Calgary 24bit A/D converter card. HB> We're now happily recording data and creating events in "Nordic HB> format". I'd like to use WinQuake to view these events. Has anyone HB> written a converter from "Nordic format" to PSN or SEED? Hopefully this HB> is a temporary measure until I get Seislog generating PSN type 4 directly... HB> Cheers, HB> Henry Bland HB> Dept of Geology and Geophysics HB> University of Calgary HB> __________________________________________________________ HB> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) HB> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with HB> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe HB> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, a.rodriguez mailto:stuff@................. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Sprengnether on ebay From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 20:49:09 -0400 Hi gang, ebay offers a Sprengnether long period vertical seismomter-- Item # 3226202563 ends June 4. Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Fwd: FW: italian From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 07:30:17 -0600 Dear Roberto, I do not know of a system for recording seismic data with a sound card. You would not be able to attach the seismic signal directly to the sound card because the frequency of the seismic signals are too low. There might be a way to modulate a higher frequency with the seismic signal and record that. However I don't know how one would easily interpret the modulated signal. I will send your question to the Public Seismic Network mailing list to see if one of the members can provide some advice. A good, inexpensive option for seismic recording uses a Dataq.com analog to digital converter (AD). They have one model that sells for just $25 See: http://dataq.com/194.htm It connects to the serial port of a PC. This AD will work with the free AmaSeis software provided by Alan Jones. See: http://www.geol.binghamton.edu/faculty/jones/jones.html#AmaSeis I've posted a lot of information that would be useful for setting up a seismic station here: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/epics/links.html Also, see Larry Cochrane's PSN site: http://www.seismicnet.com/index.html Cheers, John Lahr (from home!) USGS Golden, CO >------ Forwarded Message > > From: roberto fichera > > Reply-To: robertofichera1@........... > > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:15:26 -0700 > > To: lisa@........ > > Subject: italian > > > > > > > > I HOPE CHE QUALCUNO CAPISCA L'ITALIANO LI NEGLI U.S.A. PLEASE HELP ME, > > BECAUSE I DO NOT WRITE VERY WELL IN ENGLISH. > > I WONT A SOFTWARE SEISMOLOGIC RECORDER VIA SOUNDBLASTER WITH MY PERSONAL > > COMPUTER. > > PENTIUM 3 128 MB OF RAM, HD 40 GB,SOUND BLASTER 128 BIT. > > > > > >------ End of Forwarded Message > > >------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: FW: italian From: "Mauro Mariotti" mariotti@......... Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:45:30 +0200 Hi All and Hi Roberto, probably I already answered to a request to you. I don't remember who asked me about record earthquake using a sound blaster. John Lahr is right when say the SB device have a high-pass filter that remove all signals below 10 or 20Hz. === probabilmente ho già risposto ad una tua mail al riguardo non ricordo, qualcun altro mi chiese la stessa cosa. John Lahr dice giusto affermando che con una SB non si riesce a regsitrare bene i terremoti, esse hanno infatti un filtro passa alto che rimuobe tutti i segnali al di sotto di 10, 20 Hz cosa che invece a noi interessa. === I suggest you to try out the LX1500 board (the most economic a/d converter available in Italy) it is a single channel interface 16 bit 50 SPS. === Ti suggersico di usare la LX1500 se vuoi spendere il meno possibile ma è monocanale a 16 bit 50 sps. non male ma è limitatissima. === OR you can use one of my SADC10 board available with 4 channel true 16 bit or 18 bit low noise embeddending also DCF77 decoder for precise timing. === Oppure puoi usare la mia SADC10 che arriva a 4 canali e incorpora il decoder DCF77, c'è sia in versione 16 bit che 18 bit a basso rumore. === Both LX1500 and SADC10 are fully supported by SEISMOWIN. Entrambe sono supportate da SEISMOWIN Seismowin generates Winquake compatible files Seismowin genera file compatibili con winquake === You can contact me at mariotti@......... ciao mauro ----- Original Message ----- From: "John or Jan Lahr" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 3:30 PM Subject: Fwd: FW: italian > Dear Roberto, > > I do not know of a system for recording seismic data with a sound card. > You would not be able to attach the seismic signal directly to the sound > card because the frequency of the seismic signals are too low. There might > be a way to modulate a higher frequency with the seismic signal and record > that. However I don't know how one would easily interpret the modulated > signal. > > I will send your question to the Public Seismic Network mailing list to > see if one of the members can provide some advice. > > A good, inexpensive option for seismic recording uses a Dataq.com > analog to digital converter (AD). They have one model that sells for just $25 > See: http://dataq.com/194.htm It connects to the serial port of a PC. > > This AD will work with the free AmaSeis software provided by Alan Jones. > See: > http://www.geol.binghamton.edu/faculty/jones/jones.html#AmaSeis > > I've posted a lot of information that would be useful for setting up a > seismic station here: > http://jclahr.com/science/psn/epics/links.html > > Also, see Larry Cochrane's PSN site: > http://www.seismicnet.com/index.html > > Cheers, > John Lahr (from home!) > USGS > Golden, CO > > > >------ Forwarded Message > > > From: roberto fichera > > > Reply-To: robertofichera1@........... > > > Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 09:15:26 -0700 > > > To: lisa@........ > > > Subject: italian > > > > > > > > > > > > I HOPE CHE QUALCUNO CAPISCA L'ITALIANO LI NEGLI U.S.A. PLEASE HELP ME, > > > BECAUSE I DO NOT WRITE VERY WELL IN ENGLISH. > > > I WONT A SOFTWARE SEISMOLOGIC RECORDER VIA SOUNDBLASTER WITH MY PERSONAL > > > COMPUTER. > > > PENTIUM 3 128 MB OF RAM, HD 40 GB,SOUND BLASTER 128 BIT. > > > > > > > > > >------ End of Forwarded Message > > > > > >------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: DataQ194-RS and SEISMOWIN From: "Mauro Mariotti" mariotti@......... Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 15:47:38 +0200 Hi All, I am asking to the group if someone is using or tried to use or it is interested to use SEISMOWIN with the Di-194RS board. I would refine the device driver and release the definitiev version. So if someone is interested to receive the EXE file or updates please write me to mariotti@......... I know that board is not sold in Europe this is the reason I direct this mail to US users. regards mauro __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Inexpensive Data Acquisition From: "testology" testology@........... Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 09:35:23 -0700 Hi all, I went to the Dataq website, here is a link that will take you there: www.dataq.com/edn I don't want to deter anybody from existing solutions, but the little AD module they offer looks pretty good. And cheap. The low cost Data Acquisition starter kit, for $24.95 includes a small module with 4 channels, 10-bit ADC, max. +/-10VDC input range (makes scaling and math easy), "up to" 240 samples/sec., and 2 digital inputs for start/stop/event bits. The interface is a Serial port, but it allows the DA unit to be powered by the serial port too, probably fast enough for seismic events. It includes the hardware/module, software (2 CD's) cable and even a screwdriver. It supports Win OS from Win95 to XP. There is a sizable online library of support for it including applications notes for various sensors or transducers. The 4 channels would allow you to conceivably have 2 separate sets of vertical and horizontal geosensors in different areas, although the module itself would have to be within (realistically) about 50 feet of your computer for serial data, plus the sensor wiring length. Looks like a good inexpensive way to get a seismic sensor mini-array up and running. Tom Detweiler in Grass Valley __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Inexpensive Data Acquisition From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2003 07:38:34 -0600 It's also nice that the Dataq unit works with Alan Jones' free AmaSeis software. This is an ideal starter system combination. See: http://www.geol.binghamton.edu/faculty/jones/jones.html#AmaSeis Alan tested and found that for a computer with USB but not serial ports, a USB to serial port converter would work with the Dataq unit. Cheers, John At 10:35 AM 6/4/2003, you wrote: >Hi all, I went to the Dataq website, here is a link that will take you >there: www.dataq.com/edn >I don't want to deter anybody from existing solutions, but the little AD >module they offer looks pretty good. And cheap. >The low cost Data Acquisition starter kit, for $24.95 includes a small >module with 4 channels, 10-bit ADC, max. +/-10VDC >input range (makes scaling and math easy), "up to" 240 samples/sec., and 2 >digital inputs for start/stop/event bits. The interface is a Serial port, >but it allows the DA unit to be powered by the serial port too, probably >fast enough for seismic events. It includes the hardware/module, software >(2 CD's) cable and even a screwdriver. It supports Win OS from Win95 to XP. >There is a sizable online library of support for it including applications >notes for various sensors or transducers. >The 4 channels would allow you to conceivably have 2 separate sets of >vertical and horizontal geosensors in different areas, although the module >itself would have to be within (realistically) about 50 feet of your >computer for serial data, plus the sensor wiring length. >Looks like a good inexpensive way to get a seismic sensor mini-array up and >running. Tom Detweiler in Grass Valley > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: System Configuration From: Karl Cunningham karlc@.......... Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2003 14:17:34 -0700 --On Monday, June 09, 2003 2:20 PM -0600 Henry Bland wrote: >> This is probably a question for Larry, but thought it might have interest >> >> 1. Computer A is located near the seismometer, running the A/D card and >> SDR Server, powered from an UPS. >> 2. Computer B, sitting next to Computer A running WinSDR, powered from >> the same UPS as Computer A. A short serial cable connects the two. >> WinSDR is set to act as a server over TCP/IP. This comptuer has a >> moderate-size hard disk and only keeps a few days of record files. >> 3. Computer C, sitting in the house is running WinSDR, which is >> configured as a client to receive data from Computer B. This comptuer >> has a big hard disk for a month or two of record files and serves as my >> main WinSDR display. It also serves replay requests to WinQuake. >> 4. Router/Firewall forwards TCP/IP request from WinSDR clients to >> comptuer B. >> > At the University of Calgary we've developed our own datalogger hardware > which works with the same microcontroller (a Rabbit) as Larry Cochrane's > datalogger. Our version uses a simple internet protocol for > communication rather than serial lines. Specifically, we transmit data > in short UDP packets. Our 4-channel datalogger is run-time configurable > using SNMP. Initial network addresses are obtained using DHCP so all > configuration can be done over the network. We currently can handle 4 > channels of 24-bit samples at a rate of 2000 per second (we hope to push > this to 4000 SPS). Our logger works well, particularly with off-the-shelf > wireless access points. This configuration avoids the need for a > serial-network computer (and associated fan noise). The additional > hardware cost is negligible (see the ethernet-enabled core modules at > www.rabbitsemiconductor.com). So yes, it can be done. I am definately > interested in a low-cost commercial equivalent. Are there any existing, > open standards for *simple* continuous seismic data communication over > the internet? It would be great if dataloggers such as Seismowin, WinSDR > and Seislog could support an open standard for simplistic network > dataloggers. I know that Mauro Mariotti has shown interest in adding > streaming network support to Seismowin. I've written a driver for > Seislog to handle our network dataloggers. Is this a well trodden path? > >Cheers, >-Henry Bland >University of Calgary Henry -- I'm CCing the main PSN list as I think this may have wider interest. I think a standardized Internet protocol for distribution of seismic data has a lot of merit, and I have not seen any standardized format although I have not done any kind of thorough search. It's possible that the owner of a seemingly-proprietary protocol that meets the general need could be persuaded to release it for general use. Just to brainstorm for a minute or two on the subject: I forsee bandwidth demand outstripping supply early on. This would necessitate limiting connections to authorized users and perhaps some other mitigating measures. The following features may be of benefit in a proposed protocol... 1. Non-lossy data compression. 2. Support for various sample rates and resolutions (# of bits per sample). 3. The ability to cut back on sample rate or announce to the client the inability to support a requested sample rate or resolution. The distinction between a temporary vs. permanent limitation may be important to the client. 4. The ability to request data for any arbitrary time period. As a request such as this may involve a large amount of data, serving this request might have to be done slowly over a long period of time due to bandwidth limitations. This would naturally include the ability to announce to the client that data is not available for the requested period. 5. Error detection/correction. I'm no expert here, but I think this mandates a non-streaming format. TCP may be better than UDP for this. 6. Authentication of the client attempting to connect. If done with passwords, this should be done over a secure channel (SSL?). 7. I presently don't see the need for encryption of the data itself, although this may be a desireable feature. 8. Include time stamps with the data. I can see a lot of demand for this. Do I see an RFC in the future. Regards. Karl Cunningham __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: help from the academic sector From: "tdick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:41:42 -0500 Am I imagining this -- do the college professors look down on the = amateur seismologist and avoid helping them? Maybe I am just paranoid! = They give me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. Are = there some that are more helpful than others?
Am I imagining this -- do the college = professors=20 look down on the amateur seismologist and avoid helping them? Maybe = I am=20 just paranoid! They give me the impression that they are too busy to be=20 bothered. Are there some that are more helpful than=20 others?
Subject: Academic Sector... From: "Finke, John" John.Finke@.......... Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 10:54:19 -0400 tdick writes: "do the college professors look down on the amateur seismologist and avoid helping them? Maybe I am just paranoid! They give me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. Are there some that are more helpful than others?" As with any profession, there are always those who are more helpful than others. Since I lecture in structural engineering at a local university I can tell you that full-time professor are being pushed to do research and publish. Its the old "publish or perish" addage. I hope you won't hold a single bad experience against academians. Regards, John Finke, P.E., S.E. Jacobs Civil Inc. 501 N. Broadway St. Louis, Missouri 63102 PH: 314.335.4059 FX: 314.335.5129 ============================================================================== NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any viewing, copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. ============================================================================== Academic Sector...

tdick writes:
"do the college professors look down = on the amateur seismologist and avoid helping them=3F Maybe I am just = paranoid! They give me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. = Are there some that are more helpful than others=3F"

As with any profession, there are always = those who are more helpful than others.  Since I lecture in structural = engineering at a local university I can tell you that full-time professor are= = being pushed to do research and publish.  Its the old "publish or = perish" addage.

I hope you won't hold a single bad = experience against academians.


Regards,
John Finke, P.E., = S.E.
Jacobs Civil Inc.
501 N. Broadway
St. Louis, Missouri = 63102
PH: 314.335.4059
FX: 314.335.5129


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D
NOTICE - This communication may contain confidential and privileged
information that is for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any = viewing,
copying or distribution of, or reliance on this message by unintended
recipients is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in
error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and = deleting
it from your computer.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D

Subject: Re: help from the academic sector From: Bob Shannon earth@........... Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 08:46:39 -0700 At 09:41 AM 6/13/03 -0500, you wrote: >Am I imagining this -- do the college professors look down on the amateur >seismologist and avoid helping them? Maybe I am just paranoid! They give >me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. Are there some >that are more helpful than others? It doesn't sound like paranoia...not a good definition. It is a normal feeling that your own symptoms, ideas or questions are not worth listening to. In a way they are listened to! Enough people talk about a similar situation and it stays it sticks with those whom you are addressing. Most real good USGS folks are willing to take the time to talk with amateurs if you pose your question correctly. I have found this to be true with University of Washington Seismo Labs. UC Berkeley takes time to answer questions and at one time CalTech did the same. (Sue Hough where have you gone:->)...Andy Michaels at USGS in Menlo Park will at times answer questions....My own personal experience has been that the "pros" will talk with you....at least once! Bob Rev. Robert S. Shannon Sr. ULC Fellow of the North American Academy of Arts and Sciences . __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: help from the academic sector From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:05:30 EDT In a message dated 13/06/03, dickthomas01@............. writes: > Am I imagining this -- do the college professors look down on the amateur > seismologist and avoid helping them? They give me the impression that they are > Hi Dick, Some people are more cummunicative than others, but all academics tend to be very busy people. Some, if they answered all the EMails they received, would do little else all day. Try keeping communications brief and on one point, if possible. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 13/06/= 03, dickthomas01@............. writes:

Am I imagining this -- do t= he college professors look down on the amateur seismologist and avoid helpin= g them? They give me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. A= re there some that are more helpful than others?


Hi Dick,

      Some people are more cummunicative=20= than others, but all academics tend to be very busy people. Some, if they an= swered all the EMails they received, would do little else all day. Try keepi= ng communications brief and on one point, if possible.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: RE: help from the academic sector From: "steve hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:29:10 -0700 I have to jump in on this-- As a university professor at the University of San Francisco myself, I can tell you that you get asked a LOT of questions. In one day I receive questions via phone, email and outside of the classroom. That's what it is all about. Some questions are answered better than others. As for not acting excited to answer your question, let's look at this example. I'm currently teaching two classes. For every hour in the classroom I spend at least three hours grading papers or preparing for lectures. One class is a combined class in data structures and Java graphics programming and the other is a graduate seminar course looking at contemporary issues in Information Systems. We are exploring paradigm shifts in Information Systems and how groups uses technology to communicate and gain knowledge. I spend four hours lecturing on the PSN model which is one of the best examples in the world to demonstrates this concept. I spend one entire class presenting the PSN infrastructure; it's many linked websites, it's list-serve, people sharing a common interest and exchanging views, implied social contracts, technology exchanges, the opportunities for eCommerce, the opportunities for personal learning and the opportunities to provide scientific data for study and research. I believe that the next wave of information technologies must combine each of these attributes to be successful. eCommerce sites that help form these types of informal social contracts will lead the way as larger numbers of small groups use the new lightweight handheld electronic media devices to their individual benefits. The PSN model is a very powerful concept that can be applied to education and business applications. As a professor that also believes in life-long learning, I'm back working on a second Master's because I need it to teach in other disciplines. Nowadays I may seem a bit distracted because my current database professor thinks that everybody should already know PHP, PostgreSQL and Apache web services. I need to learn all this stuff to build the final project, an Internet enabled database using client server technology; in under 8-weeks... My point is, according to my wife, professors need a life too. While I can't speak for the professor that prompted this post, I would like you to keep in mind that any professor that looks down on the PSN will most likely be passed over as the Information Age engulfs them. As for the folks at other schools and government locations not supporting the PSN. When we started the PSN in 1991 the folks at the USGS stepped in and gave their full support. Many people have retired and moved on due to budget cuts. However, if we were to come up with a good idea that needed their support and formally asked for it, I think we would get consideration for our idea. Also remember, a few PSN members are also USGS employees. As for the seismic Labs, the last PSN meeting we held was hosted by the folks at the Berkeley Lab. Regards, Steve Hammond -- PSN San Jose -- Aptos, California http://www.PublicSeismicNetwork.com -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of tdick Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:42 AM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: help from the academic sector Am I imagining this -- do the college professors look down on the amateur seismologist and avoid helping them? Maybe I am just paranoid! They give me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. Are there some that are more helpful than others?
I = have to jump in=20 on this-- As a university professor at the University of San Francisco = myself, I=20 can tell you that you get asked a LOT of questions. In one day I receive = questions via phone, email and outside of the classroom. That's what it = is all=20 about. Some questions are answered better than others. As for not = acting=20 excited to answer your question, let's look at this example. I'm = currently=20 teaching two classes. For every hour in the classroom I spend at least = three=20 hours grading papers or preparing for lectures. One class is a combined = class in=20 data structures and Java graphics programming and the other is a = graduate=20 seminar course looking at contemporary issues in Information Systems. We = are exploring paradigm shifts in Information Systems and = how=20 groups uses technology to communicate and gain knowledge. I spend four = hours=20 lecturing on the PSN model which is one of the best examples in the=20 world to demonstrates this concept. I spend one entire class=20 presenting the PSN infrastructure; it's many linked websites, it's = list-serve,=20 people sharing a common interest and exchanging views, implied social = contracts,=20 technology exchanges, the opportunities for eCommerce, the opportunities = for=20 personal learning and the opportunities to provide scientific data for = study and=20 research. I believe that the next wave of information=20 technologies must combine each of these attributes to be = successful.=20 eCommerce sites that help form these types of informal social contracts = will=20 lead the way as larger numbers of small groups use the new lightweight = handheld=20 electronic media devices to their individual = benefits. The PSN = model is a=20 very powerful concept that can be applied to education and business = applications.
 
As = a professor=20 that also believes in life-long learning, I'm back working on a = second=20 Master's because I need it to teach in other disciplines. Nowadays I may = seem a=20 bit distracted because my current database professor thinks that = everybody=20 should already know PHP, PostgreSQL and Apache web services. I need to = learn all=20 this stuff to build the final project, an Internet enabled database = using=20 client server technology; in under 8-weeks... My point is, = according to my=20 wife, professors need a life too. While I can't speak for the professor = that=20 prompted this post, I would like you to keep in mind that=20 any professor that looks down on the PSN will most likely = be=20 passed over as the Information Age engulfs them. As for the = folks at other=20 schools and government locations not supporting the PSN. When we started = the PSN=20 in 1991 the folks at the USGS stepped in and gave their full support. = Many=20 people have retired and moved on due to budget cuts. However, if we = were to=20 come up with a good idea that needed their support and formally asked = for it, I=20 think we would get consideration for our idea. Also remember, a few PSN = members=20 are also USGS employees. As for the seismic Labs, the last PSN = meeting=20 we held was hosted by the folks at the Berkeley Lab.
 
 
 
 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@...............On = Behalf=20 Of tdick
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 7:42 AM
To: = psn-l@..............
Subject: help from the academic=20 sector

Am I imagining this -- do the college = professors=20 look down on the amateur seismologist and avoid helping = them? Maybe I am=20 just paranoid! They give me the impression that they are too busy to = be=20 bothered. Are there some that are more helpful than=20 others?
Subject: Re: help from the academic sector From: John Hernlund hernlund@............ Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:09:18 -0700 On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 07:41 AM, tdick wrote: > Am I imagining this -- do the college professors look down on the=20 > amateur seismologist and avoid helping them?=A0Maybe I am just = paranoid!=20 > They give me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. Are=20= > there some that are more=A0helpful than others? It also depends what you are asking, or what topic you want to speak=20 about. Most profs in seismology have far less understanding of seismic=20= instrumentation than the PSN people...they ordinarily just buy one, and=20= it works (usually). Electrical circuits, etc. are mostly off limits. So=20= talking about instrumentation is usually less interesting, since they=20 are more involved in the science side of things. You'll find them much=20= more receptive to some of these latter topics. Some profs are very good with PR, and some are not, as you noted.=20 They're just people like anyone else. And they're usually busy, like=20 everyone else. I know that I am some what less enthusiastic to begin a=20= tangential discussion with somebody while I am in the midst of thinking=20= about something else that has captured my interest...its the nature of=20= the business that you don't get a whole lot of chances for good short=20 term accomplishment, due to the long term nature of scientific=20 research, and so you have a feeling of always being behind, needing to=20= catch up, etc.. This field really needs amateur contributions. But the learning curve=20 is very steep in this case, and as you all know, the instrumentation is=20= not trivial. As an example, consider astronomy...many discoveries of=20 comets, etc., come from amateurs (e.g. Hale-Bopp)...however it is much=20= easier to point a telescope than it is to set up your own seismograph=20 and begin interpreting the wiggly lines as something useful. Those in the US will see a dramatic increase in the next few years of=20 interest in seismology and outreach efforts in schools, as part of the=20= newly funded "Earthscope" project. This is a major undertaking, and=20 took a lot of lobbying effort in congress to get through. For those who=20= aren't familiar with this project, part of it will be a very high=20 density array that will leap frog through the entire US, and may=20 include ocean bottom seismos as well to get data off the coast.=20 Proposals on some initial seismic lines are already being prepared, and=20= will be submitted very soon. We have jumped on board one such proposal,=20= that will include a seismic line from the Mojave across the Col plateau=20= and then to the Rio Grande rift. But again, we are mostly interested in=20= what the devil is going on with the plateau and trying to image=20 convective flows in the mantle...our only interest in the seismic=20 instrumentation is that it works. Cheers! John On Friday, June 13, 2003, at 07:41 AM, tdick wrote: ArialAm I imagining this -- do the college professors look down on the amateur seismologist and avoid helping them?=A0Maybe I am just paranoid! They give me the impression that they are too busy to be bothered. Are there some that are more=A0helpful than others? It also depends what you are asking, or what topic you want to speak about. Most profs in seismology have far less understanding of seismic instrumentation than the PSN people...they ordinarily just buy one, and it works (usually). Electrical circuits, etc. are mostly off limits. So talking about instrumentation is usually less interesting, since they are more involved in the science side of things. You'll find them much more receptive to some of these latter topics. Some profs are very good with PR, and some are not, as you noted. They're just people like anyone else. And they're usually busy, like everyone else. I know that I am some what less enthusiastic to begin a tangential discussion with somebody while I am in the midst of thinking about something else that has captured my interest...its the nature of the business that you don't get a whole lot of chances for good short term accomplishment, due to the long term nature of scientific research, and so you have a feeling of always being behind, needing to catch up, etc.. This field really needs amateur contributions. But the learning curve is very steep in this case, and as you all know, the instrumentation is not trivial. As an example, consider astronomy...many discoveries of comets, etc., come from amateurs (e.g. Hale-Bopp)...however it is much easier to point a telescope than it is to set up your own seismograph and begin interpreting the wiggly lines as something useful. Those in the US will see a dramatic increase in the next few years of interest in seismology and outreach efforts in schools, as part of the newly funded "Earthscope" project. This is a major undertaking, and took a lot of lobbying effort in congress to get through. For those who aren't familiar with this project, part of it will be a very high density array that will leap frog through the entire US, and may include ocean bottom seismos as well to get data off the coast. Proposals on some initial seismic lines are already being prepared, and will be submitted very soon. We have jumped on board one such proposal, that will include a seismic line from the Mojave across the Col plateau and then to the Rio Grande rift. But again, we are mostly interested in what the devil is going on with the plateau and trying to image convective flows in the mantle...our only interest in the seismic instrumentation is that it works. Cheers! John Subject: Re: help from the academic sector From: "a.rodriguez" stuff@................. Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 18:15:48 -0500 Hello tdick, I can jump in and add that without the help and encouragement of professors from several universities I would not have been able to build the array here in Panama. I get help from professional all over the world. I try hard prepare my questions in a way that shows that I thought about it and explain what I have tried on my own to get to an answer. I will add that there are, especially in Panama, some very insecure professors and professionals that share nothing and see my hobby as a threat. But for the most part most of the professors I have dealt with especially those from the University of Bergen in Norway make me want to go back to school. angel Friday, June 13, 2003, 9:41:42 AM, you wrote: t> Am I imagining this -- do the college professors look down on the t> amateur seismologist and avoid helping them? Maybe I am just t> paranoid! They give me the impression that they are too busy to be t> bothered. Are there some that are more helpful than others? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Pictures and drawings of my system From: "kpayea" kpayea@........... Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:49:31 -0700 Hello all: I have in the past posted descriptions of my implementation of Sean-Thomas Morrisey's design for a vertical seismometer. Well, I finally got some pictures posted on my web site: www.bryantlabs.net/seismo I tried to balance download speed with photo detail. If there is something you would like explained, or can stand a large e-mail attachment, let me know and I can send you a high resolution image. I'm working on getting the schematics up there as well. As soon as I come up with a decent set of tools that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I'll send an update. If any of you have suggestions for a clean way to start from a real schematic capture tool, and end up with a standard graphical format like .gif or .pdf, I'd like to hear them. Let me know what you think! Happy Browsing, Keith Keith Payea Bryant Labs kpayea@.............. www.bryantlabs.net (707) 566-8935 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: Jan Froom Froom@............. Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 20:56:28 -0700 Keith's link needs some more detail... it should be: http://www.bryantlabs.net/seismo.htm Jan kpayea wrote: >Hello all: > >I have in the past posted descriptions of my implementation of Sean-Thomas >Morrisey's design for a vertical seismometer. Well, I finally got some >pictures posted on my web site: www.bryantlabs.net/seismo > >I tried to balance download speed with photo detail. If there is something >you would like explained, or can stand a large e-mail attachment, let me >know and I can send you a high resolution image. > >I'm working on getting the schematics up there as well. As soon as I come >up with a decent set of tools that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I'll send >an update. If any of you have suggestions for a clean way to start from a >real schematic capture tool, and end up with a standard graphical format >like .gif or .pdf, I'd like to hear them. > >Let me know what you think! > >Happy Browsing, > > Keith > >Keith Payea >Bryant Labs >kpayea@.............. >www.bryantlabs.net >(707) 566-8935 > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Pictures and drawings of my system From: "Doug Crice" dcrice@............ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 21:13:16 -0700 Let's try that one more time. http://www.bryantlabs.net/seismo.html Doug Crice 12996 Somerset Drive phone 1-530-274-4445 Grass Valley, CA 95945 USA fax 1-530-274-4446 =20 -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Jan Froom Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 8:56 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system Keith's link needs some more detail... it should be:=20 http://www.bryantlabs.net/seismo.htm Jan kpayea wrote: >Hello all: > >I have in the past posted descriptions of my implementation of = Sean-Thomas >Morrisey's design for a vertical seismometer. Well, I finally got some >pictures posted on my web site: www.bryantlabs.net/seismo > >I tried to balance download speed with photo detail. If there is = something >you would like explained, or can stand a large e-mail attachment, let = me >know and I can send you a high resolution image. > >I'm working on getting the schematics up there as well. As soon as I = come >up with a decent set of tools that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I'll = send >an update. If any of you have suggestions for a clean way to start = from a >real schematic capture tool, and end up with a standard graphical = format >like .gif or .pdf, I'd like to hear them. > >Let me know what you think! > >Happy Browsing, > > Keith > >Keith Payea >Bryant Labs >kpayea@.............. >www.bryantlabs.net >(707) 566-8935 > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20 >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > =20 > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 22:49:15 -0600 Hi Keith, Congratulations on your vertical S-TM instrument and very helpful web site! I've never tackled Sean-Thomas' design as I lack the electronic (and probably the mechanical) skills. Maybe someday... The best format to shoot for is .pdf. This allows the file to be large and detailed for those who have large format printers and yet the .pdf reader will scale the drawing to fit the available printer page size. Also, one can zoom into a .pdf figure and then get a hard copy by using and pasting the screen image to a program such as MS Word. This make .pdf much superior to .gif or .jpg, although a version in .gif with limited resolution would be helpful so that one can get a sense of the contents of the .pdf prior to downloading it. Cheers, John At 09:49 PM 6/16/2003, you wrote: >I have in the past posted descriptions of my implementation of Sean-Thomas >Morrisey's design for a vertical seismometer. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: Dave Willey davewilley@............. Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 23:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Hi Keith, Long time no hear. Just FYI for you. The link you posted was incomplete as posted. For those who want to check out Keith's system... I did some exploring and found it here: http://www.bryantlabs.net/seismo.html As an aside Keith, I'm setting up a 3-axis strong motion detector using many of Larry's boards & geophones that I got from him. I guess that M4.3 we had come through here recently got me off the dime and I've started to put something together. I'm stuffing a 1 gig ITX mom board (6.25" on a side- man are they TINY!), plus the usual power supply, H/D, & wireless NIC card, etc into a 50 cal ammo can as a remote data logger. As it's going outside in the backyard & it's REAL dusty, I'm adding a new K&N cleanable air filter from an industrial gas motor,& a pc fan to keep things cool. It's much easier to keep the filter washed, rather than vacuum out the mom board, power supply & case every three to six months. Rather odd collection of parts. Later, Dave Willey - KD6KWM davewilley@............. --- kpayea wrote: > Hello all: > > I have in the past posted descriptions of my > implementation of Sean-Thomas > Morrisey's design for a vertical seismometer. Well, > I finally got some > pictures posted on my web site: > www.bryantlabs.net/seismo > > I tried to balance download speed with photo detail. > If there is something > you would like explained, or can stand a large > e-mail attachment, let me > know and I can send you a high resolution image. > > I'm working on getting the schematics up there as > well. As soon as I come > up with a decent set of tools that doesn't cost an > arm and a leg, I'll send > an update. If any of you have suggestions for a > clean way to start from a > real schematic capture tool, and end up with a > standard graphical format > like .gif or .pdf, I'd like to hear them. > > Let me know what you think! > > Happy Browsing, > > Keith > > Keith Payea > Bryant Labs > kpayea@.............. > www.bryantlabs.net > (707) 566-8935 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Include City in PSN postings From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 07:11:33 -0600 Hi Dave, I guess you live in the Bay area? I think it would be a good idea in general for psn messages to include the city of the poster. Of course I've not done that in the past either, but here goes, now and in the future (if I can remember :-) Cheers, John, Golden, CO At 12:04 AM 6/17/2003, Dave wrote: >Hi Keith, > >Long time no hear. > >.... >Later, > > >Dave Willey - KD6KWM >davewilley@............. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Include City in PSN postings From: Dave Willey davewilley@............. Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 06:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Good point. I'll do that in the future. Dave Willey - KD6KWM Santa Rosa, CA. --- John or Jan Lahr wrote: > Hi Dave, > > I guess you live in the Bay area? I think it would > be a good > idea in general for psn messages to include the city > of > the poster. > > Of course I've not done that in the past either, but > here > goes, now and in the future (if I can remember :-) > > Cheers, > John, > Golden, CO > > At 12:04 AM 6/17/2003, Dave wrote: > >Hi Keith, > > > >Long time no hear. > > > >.... > > > > >Later, > > > > > >Dave Willey - KD6KWM > >davewilley@............. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): > unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Include City in PSN postings From: Ian Smith ian@........... Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:38:53 +0100 another thought is it would be useful if the list server could insert "PSN: " at the beginning of each subject line. I almost deleted the last psn message (Pictures and drawings of my...) without reading it thinking it was more pornographic spam! Ian Smith Haddington Scotland John or Jan Lahr wrote: > Hi Dave, > > I guess you live in the Bay area? I think it would be a good > idea in general for psn messages to include the city of > the poster. > > Of course I've not done that in the past either, but here > goes, now and in the future (if I can remember :-) > > Cheers, > John, > Golden, CO > > At 12:04 AM 6/17/2003, Dave wrote: > >> Hi Keith, >> >> Long time no hear. >> >> .... > > > > >> Later, >> >> >> Dave Willey - KD6KWM >> davewilley@............. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: "Larry Conklin" lconklin@............ Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 11:39:14 -0400 Keith, I was really pleased to see your description of your vertical seismometer. I have been thinking about building one also, but some of the details in the original plans have been unclear to me. Your photos make the whole enterprise look much less daunting than I had thought. The one detail that is still not clear to me is the design of the hinges at the ends of the spring. I wonder if you have comparably clear photos of them that you could add to your web page? Larry Conklin Liverpool, NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "kpayea" To: Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:49 PM Subject: Pictures and drawings of my system > Hello all: > > I have in the past posted descriptions of my implementation of Sean-Thomas > Morrisey's design for a vertical seismometer. Well, I finally got some > pictures posted on my web site: www.bryantlabs.net/seismo > > I tried to balance download speed with photo detail. If there is something > you would like explained, or can stand a large e-mail attachment, let me > know and I can send you a high resolution image. > > I'm working on getting the schematics up there as well. As soon as I come > up with a decent set of tools that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I'll send > an update. If any of you have suggestions for a clean way to start from a > real schematic capture tool, and end up with a standard graphical format > like .gif or .pdf, I'd like to hear them. > > Let me know what you think! > > Happy Browsing, > > Keith > > Keith Payea > Bryant Labs > kpayea@.............. > www.bryantlabs.net > (707) 566-8935 > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: "kpayea" kpayea@........... Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 10:18:40 -0700 Sorry to all about the broken link. A bonehead mistake right up there with forgetting the attachment... www.bryantlabs.net/seismo.html Thanks, it was a "labor of love"! And it was not that hard to make. Mechanically, it is pretty simple, I think most people are put off by the electronics. Sean-Thomas's version was put together from some universal boards which had many options which are unused for this seismometer. It also lacked a diagram which pulled all of the pages together. The spring hinge gave me some problems as well. I'll try to get a detail of it, as well as some kind of sketch posted soon. One hint I can give is that the ends of the spring are pulling, not pushing. If you picture the spring as a "C", each end has a piece of brass strip attached which points inward. That strip is attached to the spring along one edge, and the hinge "pin" (a piece of brass rod) on the other. Would there be any interest among the group if I made a PCB and some of the hard to find electronic parts available? I did not copy Sean-Thomas's circuit, so there isn't a copyright issue. Cheers, Keith Payea Santa Rosa, CA 38.46N 122.71W ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Conklin" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system > Keith, > > I was really pleased to see your description of your vertical seismometer. > I have been thinking about building one also, but some of the details in the > original plans have been unclear to me. Your photos make the whole > enterprise look much less daunting than I had thought. The one detail that > is still not clear to me is the design of the hinges at the ends of the > spring. I wonder if you have comparably clear photos of them that you could > add to your web page? > > Larry Conklin > Liverpool, NY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kpayea" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:49 PM > Subject: Pictures and drawings of my system > > > > Hello all: > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Pictures and drawings of my system From: "John D Nelson" jnelson@................. Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 12:42:17 -0500 I'd certainly like to see the schematic and a photographic closeup of the hinge. Thanks. John Nelson Austin, TX -----Original Message----- From: kpayea [mailto:kpayea@............... Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 12:19 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system Sorry to all about the broken link. A bonehead mistake right up there with forgetting the attachment... www.bryantlabs.net/seismo.html Thanks, it was a "labor of love"! And it was not that hard to make. Mechanically, it is pretty simple, I think most people are put off by the electronics. Sean-Thomas's version was put together from some universal boards which had many options which are unused for this seismometer. It also lacked a diagram which pulled all of the pages together. The spring hinge gave me some problems as well. I'll try to get a detail of it, as well as some kind of sketch posted soon. One hint I can give is that the ends of the spring are pulling, not pushing. If you picture the spring as a "C", each end has a piece of brass strip attached which points inward. That strip is attached to the spring along one edge, and the hinge "pin" (a piece of brass rod) on the other. Would there be any interest among the group if I made a PCB and some of the hard to find electronic parts available? I did not copy Sean-Thomas's circuit, so there isn't a copyright issue. Cheers, Keith Payea Santa Rosa, CA 38.46N 122.71W ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Conklin" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:39 AM Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system > Keith, > > I was really pleased to see your description of your vertical=20 > seismometer. I have been thinking about building one also, but some of > the details in the > original plans have been unclear to me. Your photos make the whole=20 > enterprise look much less daunting than I had thought. The one detail that > is still not clear to me is the design of the hinges at the ends of=20 > the spring. I wonder if you have comparably clear photos of them that > you could > add to your web page? > > Larry Conklin > Liverpool, NY > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kpayea" > To: > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 11:49 PM > Subject: Pictures and drawings of my system > > > > Hello all: > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: hammond@........... Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 09:49:00 -0800 (AKDT) Keith, I too thank you for putting up your pictures and description. I'd like to see the schematics and close-up photos of the seismometer. Do you have any recordings of earthquakes from this instrument? regards, Bob Hammond Public Seismic Network - Alaska http://apsn.awcable.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Filtering PSN Messages (was: re:Include City in PSN postings) From: Karl Cunningham karlc@.......... Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 14:56:54 -0700 Ian -- I have my email program set to identify messages that contain "psn-l@.............." in either the "To" or "Cc" header, and dump them into a mailbox called PSN. Your email program may be able to do that too. Karl Cunningham La Mesa, CA. --On Tuesday, June 17, 2003 4:38 PM +0100 Ian Smith wrote: > another thought is it would be useful if the list server could insert > "PSN: " at the beginning of each subject line. I almost deleted the last > psn message (Pictures and drawings of my...) without reading it thinking > it was more pornographic spam! > > Ian Smith > Haddington > Scotland > > John or Jan Lahr wrote: > >> Hi Dave, >> >> I guess you live in the Bay area? I think it would be a good >> idea in general for psn messages to include the city of >> the poster. >> >> Of course I've not done that in the past either, but here >> goes, now and in the future (if I can remember :-) >> >> Cheers, >> John, >> Golden, CO >> >> At 12:04 AM 6/17/2003, Dave wrote: >> >>> Hi Keith, >>> >>> Long time no hear. >>> >>> .... >> >> >> >> >>> Later, >>> >>> >>> Dave Willey - KD6KWM >>> davewilley@............. >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2003 23:05:09 EDT In a message dated 17/06/03, kpayea@........... writes: Hello Keith, Congratulations! It all looks very nice! I notice that on the schematic drawing you have the two spring suspensions vertically above each other, whereas in the apparatus photo, the top suspension is closer to the hinge. This last one looks similar to the arrangement used in a LaCoste suspension. I wondered if you had been able to get significant period lengthening? "One hint I can give is that the ends of the spring are pulling, not pushing"? But the horizontal hinge foils in the photo look as if they are in compression, rather than in extension? I wondered if you had tried the 2 thou Stainless Steel foil from KS metals, or 1.5 thou steel shim strip? You say "the limiting factor in this seismometer is not sensitivity, but noise". Is this geological, environmental or electronic noise, please? For circuit diagrams, I usually enter the components on QuickCad, save it either as .jpg or .bmp and then use Micrografx Picture Publisher to scale or convert to a .gif A4 image. Alternatively, you can draw it with symbols on paper and scan it. I use tracing paper over graph paper to give an easy hand drawing scale. Can you not print out the OrCad images and re scan them? Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 17/06/= 03, kpayea@........... writes:

Hello Keith,

      Congratulations! It all looks very=20= nice!
      I notice that on the schematic draw= ing you have the two spring suspensions vertically above each other, whereas= in the apparatus photo, the top suspension is closer to the hinge. This las= t one looks similar to the arrangement used in a LaCoste suspension. I wonde= red if you had been able to get significant period lengthening?
      "One hint I can give is that the en= ds of the spring are pulling, not pushing"?
But the horizontal hinge foils in the photo look as if they are in compr= ession, rather than in extension? I wondered if you had tried the 2 thou Sta= inless Steel foil from KS metals, or 1.5 thou steel shim strip?
      You say "the limiting factor in thi= s seismometer is not sensitivity, but noise". Is this geological, environmen= tal or electronic noise, please?
      For circuit diagrams, I usually ent= er the components on QuickCad, save it either as .jpg or .bmp and then use M= icrografx Picture Publisher to scale or convert to a .gif A4 image. Alternat= ively, you can draw it with symbols on paper and scan it. I use tracing pape= r over graph paper to give an easy hand drawing scale. Can you not print out= the OrCad images and re scan them?

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman

Subject: Re: Filtering PSN Messages (was: re:Include City in PSN postings) From: Ian Smith ian@........... Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 07:15:17 +0100 Hi,

thanks for the suggestion.  I actually do just that with my netscape mail.  Things have gotten so bad now though with spam (about 100/day) that I first use the webmail interface to my isp's inbox to manually delete most of it there.  The webmail interface only shows the subject and sender.  After that I allow netscape to download the 1 or 2 that are left.

So, now that I'm reduced to manual filtering, having PSN: at the start of the subject would help a lot.

Ian Smith

Karl Cunningham wrote:
Ian --

I have my email program set to identify messages that contain
"psn-l@.............." in either the "To" or "Cc" header, and dump them
into a mailbox called PSN.  Your email program may be able to do that too.

Karl Cunningham
La Mesa, CA.


--On Tuesday, June 17, 2003 4:38 PM +0100 Ian Smith <ian@...........> wrote:

another thought is it would be useful if the list server could insert
"PSN: " at the beginning of each subject line.  I almost deleted the last
psn message (Pictures and drawings of my...) without reading it thinking
it was more pornographic spam!

Ian Smith
Haddington
Scotland

John or Jan Lahr wrote:

Hi Dave,

I guess you live in the Bay area?  I think it would be a good
idea in general for psn messages to include the city of
the poster.

Of course I've not done that in the past either, but here
goes, now and in the future (if I can remember :-)

Cheers,
John,
Golden, CO

At 12:04 AM 6/17/2003, Dave wrote:

Hi Keith,

Long time no hear.

....



Later,


Dave Willey - KD6KWM
davewilley@.............

__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of 
the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.


__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of
the message (first line only): unsubscribe See
http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.


__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with 
the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.


Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: "David H. Youden" dyouden@......... Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 06:03:38 -0400 Keith, It looks like you've done a fine job. Creative use of materials too. Like everyone else I'm interested in the circuit diagram and the spring attachment points. Dave Youden At 08:49 PM 6/16/03 -0700, you wrote: >Hello all: > >I have in the past posted descriptions of my implementation of Sean-Thomas >Morrisey's design for a vertical seismometer. Well, I finally got some >pictures posted on my web site: www.bryantlabs.net/seismo > >I tried to balance download speed with photo detail. If there is something >you would like explained, or can stand a large e-mail attachment, let me >know and I can send you a high resolution image. > >I'm working on getting the schematics up there as well. As soon as I come >up with a decent set of tools that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, I'll send >an update. If any of you have suggestions for a clean way to start from a >real schematic capture tool, and end up with a standard graphical format >like .gif or .pdf, I'd like to hear them. > >Let me know what you think! > >Happy Browsing, > > Keith > >Keith Payea >Bryant Labs >kpayea@.............. >www.bryantlabs.net >(707) 566-8935 > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system From: "kpayea" kpayea@........... Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 21:12:50 -0700 I'm working on a sketch that I hope will help understand the spring = terminations. It is a bit "fiddly" to build, but it was designed in = such a way that machine tools aren't required. I should have an update = in a few days. My site is in Santa Rosa, CA, a mid sized city north of San Francisco. = My noise source are many, the worst (in amplitude) is thermally induced = baseline drift. Luckily, this is easily compensated and/or ignored. = Next in line is site noise. I'm only about 40 miles from the Pacific = Ocean, and whenever there's a storm brewing, I git big "swells" in the = traces. This could also be from barometric pressure changes, but I = doubt it. I'm also only about 1/2 mile from Highway 101, and even less = from a very busy main artery. These pretty much set my noise floor. Thanks to all for the suggestions on how to publish the schematics. I'm = going to try a few of them and see how they work. Cheers, Keith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ChrisAtUpw@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 8:05 PM Subject: Re: Pictures and drawings of my system In a message dated 17/06/03, kpayea@........... writes:=20 Hello Keith,=20 Congratulations! It all looks very nice!=20 I notice that on the schematic drawing you have the two spring = suspensions vertically above each other, whereas in the apparatus photo, = the top suspension is closer to the hinge. This last one looks similar = to the arrangement used in a LaCoste suspension. I wondered if you had = been able to get significant period lengthening?=20 "One hint I can give is that the ends of the spring are pulling, = not pushing"?=20 But the horizontal hinge foils in the photo look as if they are in = compression, rather than in extension? I wondered if you had tried the 2 = thou Stainless Steel foil from KS metals, or 1.5 thou steel shim strip?=20 You say "the limiting factor in this seismometer is not = sensitivity, but noise". Is this geological, environmental or electronic = noise, please?=20 For circuit diagrams, I usually enter the components on = QuickCad, save it either as .jpg or .bmp and then use Micrografx Picture = Publisher to scale or convert to a .gif A4 image. Alternatively, you can = draw it with symbols on paper and scan it. I use tracing paper over = graph paper to give an easy hand drawing scale. Can you not print out = the OrCad images and re scan them?=20 Regards,=20 Chris Chapman=20
I'm working on a sketch that I hope = will help=20 understand the spring terminations.  It is a bit "fiddly" to build, = but it=20 was designed in such a way that machine tools aren't required.  I = should=20 have an update in a few days.
 
My site is in Santa Rosa, CA, a mid = sized city=20 north of San Francisco.  My noise source are many, the worst (in = amplitude)=20 is thermally induced baseline drift.  Luckily, this is easily = compensated=20 and/or ignored.  Next in line is site noise.  I'm only about = 40 miles=20 from the Pacific Ocean, and whenever there's a storm brewing, I git big = "swells"=20 in the traces.  This could also be from barometric pressure = changes, but I=20 doubt it.  I'm also only about 1/2 mile from Highway 101, and even = less=20 from a very busy main artery.  These pretty much set my noise=20 floor.
 
Thanks to all for the suggestions on = how to publish=20 the schematics.  I'm going to try a few of them and see how they=20 work.
 
Cheers,
 
    Keith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 = 8:05=20 PM
Subject: Re: Pictures and = drawings of my=20 system

In a = message dated=20 17/06/03, kpayea@........... = writes:=20

Hello Keith,=20

      Congratulations! It all = looks very=20 nice!
      I notice that on the = schematic=20 drawing you have the two spring suspensions vertically above each = other,=20 whereas in the apparatus photo, the top suspension is closer to the = hinge.=20 This last one looks similar to the arrangement used in a LaCoste = suspension. I=20 wondered if you had been able to get significant period lengthening?=20
      "One hint I can give is that = the ends=20 of the spring are pulling, not pushing"?
But the horizontal hinge = foils in=20 the photo look as if they are in compression, rather than in = extension? I=20 wondered if you had tried the 2 thou Stainless Steel foil from KS = metals, or=20 1.5 thou steel shim strip?
      You = say=20 "the limiting factor in this seismometer is not sensitivity, but = noise". Is=20 this geological, environmental or electronic noise, please?=20
      For circuit diagrams, I = usually enter=20 the components on QuickCad, save it either as .jpg or .bmp and then = use=20 Micrografx Picture Publisher to scale or convert to a .gif A4 image.=20 Alternatively, you can draw it with symbols on paper and scan it. I = use=20 tracing paper over graph paper to give an easy hand drawing scale. Can = you not=20 print out the OrCad images and re scan them?

      Regards,=20

      Chris Chapman=20

Subject: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: "Bob Hancock" robert.hancock@........... Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 18:34:44 -0400 I am experiencing difficulity in downloading event files from the USGS servers. I have been able to get to the Canadian Server, but when I try the USGS servers, I wind up getting directed to a $200 program for downloading VB files. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Bob Hancock Randolph, NJ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Industrial computers available From: Thomas W Leiper twleiper@........ Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 23:13:15 -0400 For any of you who are assembling a massive array of sensors and want to stack up a bunch of W95 or DOS machines in a rack in some 130 degree shed out in the desert, I have at least a half dozen rack-mount Pentium 166 industrial computers. They measure 3.5" high by 17" wide by 17.5" deep, and you can just stack-um-up or rack-um-up. They are single board computers (SBC) on a back-plane that has a couple each ISA and PCI slots. The drive is SCSI, and the SBC has Adaptec SCSI, ATI chip set, serial & parallel, both PS2 and and AT keyboard, PS2 mouse and 32 or more meg RAM. In addition to the PS exhaust fan on the back they also have a pressurized inlet fan and filter on the front, and they run cool if either fan fails. A couple fans may need to be replaced. All were loaded with W95 rev C (the best), though one or two might have been reloaded with 98 after a drive crash... not sure. They have been in service for the last five years running 24/7 in a medical imaging system, and they all look great and have been running great right up to the pull last week. We just needed more horsepower and W2000. They are way too good to crush, and they ran about three grand back in 97-98. PSN members can make an offer before I put them on EBay. You HAMs and SWLs might want one for an RTTY decoder stacked under your R-390. Interested folks can contact me at "twleiper(at)juno.com" Tom __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Fw: Guatemala multiple Quakes From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 02:15:21 -0700 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rolando Benitez" To: "Larry Cochrane" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 2:08 AM Subject: FW: Guatemala multiple Quakes > Hello Larry, > I tried to send this msg to the list, but the mail server of the address > registered in the PSN list is down and the PSN List server rejected my msg. > Can you please post this msg to the list? If it is not possible I will wait > til' my server returns operative. > Best regards, > Rolando > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rolando Benitez [mailto:rbenitez@.......... > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 2:58 AM > To: Psn-L@........... Com > Subject: Guatemala multiple Quakes > > > Hello Larry et al, > As I was commenting privately with several List members, I hope the > Guatemala multiple quakes files recently uploaded to the PSN web page, may > interest the PSN members, I have never seen anything like this before, I am > sure it is not unusual for a place with so many faults around as Guatemala, > It was the case that there were no amateur seismologists here before, > properly equipped to expose these events to the world. The PSN, the Cole's > sensors, Larry's software and hardware and the Internet make definitely the > difference . As of today we still are having a lot of small quakes, but not > as impressive as the already posted. Now the western Brazil quake is shaking > the sensors. > > Thank you for the opportunity to share these events. > Best regards, > Rolando > Fraijanes, Guatemala __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 22:07:46 -0600 Hi Bob, Could you give me the URL of the USGS web site(s) in question? What event files are you trying to download? Thanks, John At 04:34 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote: >I am experiencing difficulity in downloading event files from the USGS >servers. I have been able to get to the Canadian Server, but when I try the >USGS servers, I wind up getting directed to a $200 program for downloading >VB files. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > >Bob Hancock >Randolph, NJ > > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: Karl Cunningham karlc@.......... Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2003 07:39:39 -0700 On a related subject, I notice the finger server at quake@................. seems to be down. When it was working it had a message to the effect that its days were numbered and there were new (better) ways to get the same information. I'd rather not have to deal with the HTML tags. Does anyone know of a source of worldwide event information that is straight text (no HTML tags). Text in the same format as the old finger server would be great as I have scripts to decode it. Thanks. Karl Cunningham La Mesa, CA --On Friday, June 20, 2003 22:07 -0600 John or Jan Lahr wrote: > Hi Bob, > > Could you give me the URL of the USGS web site(s) in question? > What event files are you trying to download? > > Thanks, > John > > At 04:34 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote: >> I am experiencing difficulity in downloading event files from the USGS >> servers. I have been able to get to the Canadian Server, but when I try >> the USGS servers, I wind up getting directed to a $200 program for >> downloading VB files. Any thoughts would be appreciated. >> >> Bob Hancock >> Randolph, NJ __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: "Bob Hancock" robert.hancock@........... Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 13:46:34 -0400 John - Larry gave me the revised FTP address for the ALL NEIC Events. The problem is that I can access it outside of WinQuake by using my web browser. However, when I run WinQuake, I cannot access the file - it just hangs. This is the current address that I am using ftp://ghtftp.cr.usgs.gov/pub/cnss/cnss_14.fing (All NEIC Events) Bob -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of John or Jan Lahr Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 00:08 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: PSN - Downloading Event Files Hi Bob, Could you give me the URL of the USGS web site(s) in question? What event files are you trying to download? Thanks, John At 04:34 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote: >I am experiencing difficulity in downloading event files from the USGS >servers. I have been able to get to the Canadian Server, but when I try the >USGS servers, I wind up getting directed to a $200 program for downloading >VB files. Any thoughts would be appreciated. > >Bob Hancock >Randolph, NJ > > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 12:04:02 -0600 Hi Bob, I can see the file from a browser and from the DOS ftp client. If WinQuake is doing anything unusual, then USGS security rules may be blocking access. Cheers, John At 11:46 AM 6/22/2003, you wrote: >John - > >Larry gave me the revised FTP address for the ALL NEIC Events. The problem >is that I can access it outside of WinQuake by using my web browser. >However, when I run WinQuake, I cannot access the file - it just hangs. > >This is the current address that I am using > > ftp://ghtftp.cr.usgs.gov/pub/cnss/cnss_14.fing (All NEIC Events) > >Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 14:58:55 -0700 John and others, There is a problem with the finger server or maybe it's just the http to finger gateway. Sometimes when you access this link http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/cgi-bin/finger?quake@................. using a browser or WinQuake you get an error message instead of the event report. The error returned is below. The ftp link ftp://ghtftp.cr.usgs.gov/pub/cnss/cnss_14.fing does work more reliably and is what I now use to add event report info in WinQuake. The problem is the file name recently changed names. It was just cnss.fing. The WinQuake file network.dat has the old name so it won't work unless you edit the file and change the name. I just released a new WinQuake beta release that has the updated network.dat that corrects the file name problem. You can download the new beta release from here http://www.seismicnet.com/wqdocs/wqbeta.html. After unzipping the file copy the winqk32.exe, network.dat and report.dat files to the directory containing WinQuake. Make sure you are not running WQ when you copy the files. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN HTTP/1.0 200 OK Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) PHP/4.2.3 mod_perl/1.26 Last-Modified: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:02:09 GMT ETag: "2e4296-33d-3d502b41" Accept-Ranges: bytes Content-Length: 829 Content-Type: text/plain Expires: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:29:14 GMT Cache-Control: max-age=0, no-cache, no-store Pragma: no-cache Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:29:14 GMT Connection: close #!/bin/sh # 2000/06/26 whp Eliminated double quotes in call to $FINGER # (They were causing problems when quake passed # a redundant -l option, which it no longer does.) #FINGER=/usr/ucb/finger FINGER=/bin/finger TLIMIT="/bin/ulimit -t 2 " CLIMIT="/bin/ulimit -c 0 " echo Content-type: text/html echo if [ -x $FINGER ]; then if [ $# = 0 ]; then cat << EOM Finger Gateway

Finger Gateway

This is a gateway to "finger". Type a user@host combination in your browser's s earch dialog.

EOM # don't allow empty arguments elif [ -z "$*" ] ; then echo sorry, that is not allowed. else echo \ $FINGER -l $* echo \ fi else echo Cannot find finger on this system. fi cat << EOM EOM ----- Original Message ----- From: "John or Jan Lahr" To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:04 AM Subject: RE: PSN - Downloading Event Files > Hi Bob, > > I can see the file from a browser and from the DOS ftp client. If WinQuake is > doing anything unusual, then USGS security rules may be blocking access. > > Cheers, > John > > At 11:46 AM 6/22/2003, you wrote: > >John - > > > >Larry gave me the revised FTP address for the ALL NEIC Events. The problem > >is that I can access it outside of WinQuake by using my web browser. > >However, when I run WinQuake, I cannot access the file - it just hangs. > > > >This is the current address that I am using > > > > ftp://ghtftp.cr.usgs.gov/pub/cnss/cnss_14.fing (All NEIC Events) > > > >Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: "Bob Hancock" robert.hancock@........... Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 18:37:16 -0400 Larry - I loaded the new program and other files and directed - here is what happened. When I try to connect I get the message - Connecting to host After about 2 or 3 minutes, I get the message - Login Connect Timeout Again, I was able to connect using my web brower IE6, and download the file....... Bob Randolph, NJ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 17:15:36 -0700 Bob, I just tried it several times and it works for me. I don't know why it is not working for you. All I can suggest is you try the other network reports. The one labeled "quake@................. -l (World-Wide)" should also work. -Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Hancock" To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: RE: PSN - Downloading Event Files > Larry - > > I loaded the new program and other files and directed - here is what > happened. > > When I try to connect I get the message - Connecting to host > > After about 2 or 3 minutes, I get the message - Login Connect Timeout > > Again, I was able to connect using my web brower IE6, and download the > file....... > > Bob > Randolph, NJ > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: PSN - Downloading Event Files From: Karl Cunningham karlc@.......... Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 12:09:31 -0700 Bob -- Thanks for the ftp link. I think it will work just fine for my purposes. I have a perl script that combines the output from several Internet event lists into one report file that can be used by Winquake. Unfortunately, it's not very sophistocated and I have to modity the code every time one of the Internet lists changes format. Larry -- What you see from the www finger gateway is the unix shell script that is supposed to return the result of the finger inquiry. I seems that sometimes it returns the finger output and sometimes it returns the code for the shell script. Karl Cunningham La Mesa, CA --On Sunday, June 22, 2003 1:46 PM -0400 Bob Hancock wrote: > John - > > Larry gave me the revised FTP address for the ALL NEIC Events. The > problem is that I can access it outside of WinQuake by using my web > browser. However, when I run WinQuake, I cannot access the file - it just > hangs. > > This is the current address that I am using > > ftp://ghtftp.cr.usgs.gov/pub/cnss/cnss_14.fing (All NEIC Events) > > Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. > [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of John or Jan Lahr > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 00:08 > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: Re: PSN - Downloading Event Files > > > Hi Bob, > > Could you give me the URL of the USGS web site(s) in question? > What event files are you trying to download? > > Thanks, > John > > At 04:34 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote: >> I am experiencing difficulity in downloading event files from the USGS >> servers. I have been able to get to the Canadian Server, but when I try > the >> USGS servers, I wind up getting directed to a $200 program for >> downloading VB files. Any thoughts would be appreciated. >> >> Bob Hancock >> Randolph, NJ >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Winquake--Opening two or more event files in one window From: RLLaney@....... Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 15:28:25 EDT Larry and all: I am still having a problem of opening two or more event files in the same window. I have carefully checked to make sure it is the same event, the same starting time and same length before trying to open. I ran through old event records and could open in one window most multiple records that met the above criteria. The problem seems to have begun about early May 2003. Just wondering if anyone else has this problem. Thanks. Bob Laney Salem, Oregon Larry and all:

I am still having a problem of opening two or more event files in the same w= indow.  I have carefully checked to make sure it is the same event, the= same starting time and same length before trying to open.   I ran= through old event records and could open in one window most multiple record= s that met the above criteria.  The problem seems to have begun about e= arly May 2003.

Just wondering if anyone else has this problem.

Thanks.

Bob Laney
Salem, Oregon Subject: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: Richard Schwaninger richard@............... Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:55:20 -0700 Hello group. I'm new here but have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if this has been answered before, I did do a quick search and didn't come up with anything. If so please point me to the right place - archive or google. I'm in Pleasanton, and so should have something to look at every once in a while. I'm starting to set something up at home. I thought I'd first look for local events and so purchased a few Geosource MD-100 geophones. They are labeled 14Hz, 330 Ohms. Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster in a X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis, so I figure I will not be able to construct a 3 axis unit with these geophones? Is there a work-around? Are there other available (in the $20 range) units which work on their sides? The second question, which really should of been first, is: are these geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events? Thanks for any information. Richard __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:54:29 -0600 Hi Richard, I have some high frequency geophones that were used for refraction. They are Electr. Syst. Div. Model MD 79, 10 Hz. There are horizontal and vertical units (which may contain the same geophones as they may work in any orientation) and I could send you two horizontals and a vertical for you to try out. They may work for local events but not teleseisms. I know that in the central region of the US they used 4.5 Hz geophones for regional monitoring and did quite well. Each unit is in a 1-inch diameter cylinder that is 1.25-inches long. It would be important for your amplifier/filter to have a high gain and to enhance lower frequencies with at least a one-pole high cut filter corner at around 2 Hz. Larry Cochrane could probably give you much more specific advice based on his experience in Redwood City. Cheers, John At 11:55 PM 6/23/2003, you wrote: >Hello group. > >I'm new here but have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if this >has been answered before, I did do a quick search and didn't come up >with anything. If so please point me to the right place - archive or >google. > >I'm in Pleasanton, and so should have something to look at every once in >a while. I'm starting to set something up at home. I thought I'd first >look for local events and so purchased a few Geosource MD-100 geophones. >They are labeled 14Hz, 330 Ohms. > >Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster in a >X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis, so I >figure I will not be able to construct a 3 axis unit with these >geophones? Is there a work-around? Are there other available (in the $20 >range) units which work on their sides? > >The second question, which really should of been first, is: are these >geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events? > >Thanks for any information. > >Richard > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: Jim ODonnell jimo17@........ Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 05:06:20 -0700 Hi Richard- The Geosource is a good geophone, but not adequate for earthquake recording, too high a frequency response at 14 Hz, you will need the 4.5 Hz or 1 Hz response. Your questions and many more you have, can be anwsered by going to the Public Seismic Network web page- http://psn.quake.net/geophone/index.html for geophones that can record earthquakes. More general information is at: http://psn.quake.net Yes Pleasanton is an active area... Best Regards- Jim O'Donnell UNLV On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:55:20 -0700 Richard Schwaninger writes: > Hello group. > > I'm new here but have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if > this > has been answered before, I did do a quick search and didn't come > up > with anything. If so please point me to the right place - archive > or > google. > > I'm in Pleasanton, and so should have something to look at every > once in > a while. I'm starting to set something up at home. I thought I'd > first > look for local events and so purchased a few Geosource MD-100 > geophones. > They are labeled 14Hz, 330 Ohms. > > Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster > in a > X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis, so I > figure I will not be able to construct a 3 axis unit with these > geophones? Is there a work-around? Are there other available (in the > $20 > range) units which work on their sides? > > The second question, which really should of been first, is: are > these > geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events? > > Thanks for any information. > > Richard > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 08:26:06 EDT In a message dated 24/06/03, richard@............... writes: > I'm starting to set something up at home. I thought I'd first look for > local events and so purchased a few Geosource MD-100 geophones. They are labeled > 14Hz, 330 Ohms. > Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster in a > X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis. Are there other > available (in the $20 range) units which work on their sides? > The second question, which really should of been first, is: are these > geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events? Hi Richard, The problem is not that local events don't generate vibrations that a 14 Hz geophone can't pick up, but that the environmental / man made noise background is usually so large by 20 Hz and up. Sorry, but you are more likely to be monitoring road traffic with these units. Call up http://www.seismicnet.com/ and read the notes under Used Geophones for Sale ---> Geophones and Earthquakes . Larry has 4.5 Hz L15B triaxial units for sale which might better fit your needs and your pocket. The L15Bs can have an additional output amplifier added later, to boost the response down to about 0.5 Hz, making them more useful for both local and regional events. (A bit like a powerful bass boost on your Hi-Fi.) Tele seisms need a response down to ~ 0.5 Hz. I suggest that you download Manual of Seismological Observatory Practice Also have a look at SCEC Education Module on Earthquakes at http://www.scecdc.scec.org/Module/index.html This has interactive programs to teach you about earthquakes. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 24/06/= 03, richard@............... writes:

I'm starting to set someth= ing up at home. I thought I'd first look for local events and so purchased a= few Geosource MD-100 geophones. They are labeled 14Hz, 330 Ohms.
Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster in a=20= X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis. Are there oth= er available (in the $20 range) units which work on their sides?
The second question, which really should of been first, is: are these
geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events?
Hi Richard,

      The problem is not that local event= s don't generate vibrations that a 14 Hz geophone can't pick up, but that th= e environmental / man made noise background is usually so large by 20 Hz and= up. Sorry, but you are more likely to be monitoring road traffic with these= units.=20
      Call up http://www.seismicnet.com/=20= and read the notes under Used Geophones for Sale ---> Geophones and Earthquakes . Larry has=20= 4.5 Hz L15B triaxial units for sale which might better fit your needs and yo= ur pocket.
      The L15Bs can have an additional ou= tput amplifier added later, to boost the response down to about 0.5 Hz, maki= ng them more useful for both local and regional events. (A bit like a powerf= ul bass boost on your Hi-Fi.) Tele seisms need a response down to ~ 0.5 Hz.
      I suggest that you download Manual of Seismological Obs= ervatory Practice Also have a look at SCEC Education Module on Earthquak= es at http://www.sc= ecdc.scec.org/Module/index.html This has interactive programs to teach y= ou about earthquakes.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: novel idea, maybe. From: "John D Nelson" jnelson@................. Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 09:09:00 -0500 I was disassembling a defective half height hard drive over the weekend and had an interesting idea. I was removing the platters and was down to the magnet, coil and arm. I thought, the only thing missing here to make a seismometer is a weight at the end of that arm. I put a car wheel weight (about 100 gm) and sure enough, looking at a sound card input, it is about the same sensitivity as my big vertical-at least from 1 hz to 40 hz. It could just as easily be a vertical with a different mounting and the addition of a spring. The flexible circuit board that connects to the VC on the boom arm is too stiff for good sensitivity but it could be replaced by fine wire. This may prove to be an interesting project, I think it may be at least as sensitive as a geophone. I still need to do some work on the amplifier section, it's only half done. Incidentally, I'm using LTC1063 digital 5 pole low pass filters for filtration-anybody else ever use these?=20 =20 John Nelson Message
I was = disassembling=20 a defective half height  hard drive over the weekend and had an = interesting=20 idea.  I was removing the platters and was down to the magnet, coil = and=20 arm.  I thought, the only thing missing here to make a seismometer = is a=20 weight at the end of that arm.  I put a car wheel weight (about 100 = gm) and=20 sure enough, looking at a sound card input, it is about the same = sensitivity as=20 my big vertical-at least from 1 hz to 40 hz.  It could just as = easily be a=20 vertical with a different mounting and the addition of a spring.  = The=20 flexible circuit board that connects to the VC on the boom arm is too = stiff for=20 good sensitivity but it could be replaced by fine wire.  This may = prove to=20 be an interesting project, I think it may be at least as sensitive as a=20 geophone.  I still need to do some work on the amplifier section, = it's only=20 half done.  Incidentally, I'm using LTC1063 digital 5 pole low pass = filters=20 for filtration-anybody else ever use these?
 
John=20 Nelson
=00 Subject: Re: novel idea, maybe. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 16:15:04 EDT In a message dated 24/06/03, jnelson@................. writes: > I was disassembling a defective half height hard drive over the weekend and > had an interesting idea. I was removing the platters and was down to the > magnet, coil and arm. I thought, the only thing missing here to make a > seismometer is a weight at the end of that arm. I put a car wheel weight (about 100 > gm) and sure enough, looking at a sound card input, it is about the same > sensitivity as my big vertical-at least from 1 hz to 40 hz. It could just as > easily be a vertical with a different mounting and the addition of a spring. Hi John, The magnet / coil setup in a hard drive can give good feedback or movement sensitivity, but the temperature coefficient of the magnets is quite high. This four pole magnet setup will give very effective damping if you put a Cu or Al damping plate in the magnet gap. The existing bearings might or might not work. Stick / slip is the problem. Adding a mass and a spring in such a way as to get a natural extended period is likely to be more difficult. Otherwise you need a good distance transducer and a feedback circuit. Using the magnet / coil on a 1 sec pendulum of the SG type should work. > This may prove to be an interesting project, I think it may be at least as > sensitive as a geophone. I still need to do some work on the amplifier > section, it's only half done. Incidentally, I'm using LTC1063 digital 5 pole low > Most use analogue filters. Digital filters can be useful, but they have a relatively high noise floor, which limits the dynamic range that they can handle. You might check if this is a limitation in your application. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 24/06/= 03, jnelson@................. writes:

I was disassembling a defec= tive half height hard drive over the weekend and had an interesting idea. I=20= was removing the platters and was down to the magnet, coil and arm. I though= t, the only thing missing here to make a seismometer is a weight at the end=20= of that arm.  I put a car wheel weight (about 100 gm) and sure enough,=20= looking at a sound card input, it is about the same sensitivity as my big ve= rtical-at least from 1 hz to 40 hz.  It could just as easily be a verti= cal with a different mounting and the addition of a spring.

Hi John,

      The magnet / coil setup in a hard d= rive can give good feedback or movement sensitivity, but the temperature coe= fficient of the magnets is quite high. This four pole magnet setup will give= very effective damping if you put a Cu or Al damping plate in the magnet ga= p.=20
      The existing bearings might or migh= t not work. Stick / slip is the problem. Adding a mass and a spring in such=20= a way as to get a natural extended period is likely to be more difficult.=20
      Otherwise you need a good distance=20= transducer and a feedback circuit. Using the magnet / coil on a 1 sec pendul= um of the SG type should work.  

This may prove=20= to be an interesting project, I think it may be at least as sensitive as a g= eophone. I still need to do some work on the amplifier section, it's only ha= lf done. Incidentally, I'm using LTC1063 digital 5 pole low pass filters for= filtration-anybody else ever use these?


      Most use analogue filters. Digital=20= filters can be useful, but they have a relatively high noise floor, which li= mits the dynamic range that they can handle. You might check if this is a li= mitation in your application.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman Subject: RE: novel idea, maybe. From: "John D Nelson" jnelson@................. Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 15:49:02 -0500 Thanks for the comments. I hadn't thought about the temp coefficient but these things usually end up in controlled temperature housings anyway. I built a unit once that used a copper plate in a HD magnet for damping-the Lorenz force was truly amazing. Dynamic range is a thought I hadn't considered. Our area is seismically so quiet tha it probably won't be much of a problem. I was thinking that this might be a good student project as it wouldn't require much in the way of construction and certainly could produce a demonstrable result. I'm always looking for odd-ball ways of doing things and not necessarily trying to produce a scientific grade instrument for serious study. =20 jn -----Original Message----- From: ChrisAtUpw@....... [mailto:ChrisAtUpw@........... Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 3:15 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: novel idea, maybe. =09 =09 In a message dated 24/06/03, jnelson@................. writes:=20 =09 =09 I was disassembling a defective half height hard drive over the weekend and had an interesting idea. I was removing the platters and was down to the magnet, coil and arm. I thought, the only thing missing here to make a seismometer is a weight at the end of that arm. I put a car wheel weight (about 100 gm) and sure enough, looking at a sound card input, it is about the same sensitivity as my big vertical-at least from 1 hz to 40 hz. It could just as easily be a vertical with a different mounting and the addition of a spring. Hi John,=20 =09 The magnet / coil setup in a hard drive can give good feedback or movement sensitivity, but the temperature coefficient of the magnets is quite high. This four pole magnet setup will give very effective damping if you put a Cu or Al damping plate in the magnet gap. The existing bearings might or might not work. Stick / slip is the problem. Adding a mass and a spring in such a way as to get a natural extended period is likely to be more difficult.=20 Otherwise you need a good distance transducer and a feedback circuit. Using the magnet / coil on a 1 sec pendulum of the SG type should work. =20 =09 =09 This may prove to be an interesting project, I think it may be at least as sensitive as a geophone. I still need to do some work on the amplifier section, it's only half done. Incidentally, I'm using LTC1063 digital 5 pole low pass filters for filtration-anybody else ever use these?=20 Most use analogue filters. Digital filters can be useful, but they have a relatively high noise floor, which limits the dynamic range that they can handle. You might check if this is a limitation in your application.=20 =09 Regards,=20 =09 Chris Chapman=20 Message
Thanks=20 for the comments.  I hadn't thought about the temp coefficient but = these=20 things usually end up in controlled temperature housings anyway.  I = built a=20 unit once that used a copper plate in a HD magnet for damping-the Lorenz = force=20 was truly amazing.  Dynamic range is a thought I hadn't=20 considered.   Our area is seismically so quiet = tha it=20 probably won't be much of a problem.  I was thinking that this = might be a=20 good student project as it wouldn't require much in the way of = construction and=20 certainly could produce a demonstrable result.  I'm always looking = for=20 odd-ball ways of doing things and not necessarily trying to produce a = scientific=20 grade instrument for serious study.
 
jn
-----Original Message-----
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@....... [mailto:ChrisAtUpw@........
Sent: = Tuesday, June=20 24, 2003 3:15 PM
To: psn-l@..............
Subject: = Re:=20 novel idea, maybe.

In a message dated 24/06/03, jnelson@................. = writes:

I was disassembling a defective half height hard drive = over the=20 weekend and had an interesting idea. I was removing the platters and = was=20 down to the magnet, coil and arm. I thought, the only thing missing = here to=20 make a seismometer is a weight at the end of that arm.  I put a = car=20 wheel weight (about 100 gm) and sure enough, looking at a sound card = input,=20 it is about the same sensitivity as my big vertical-at least from 1 = hz to 40=20 hz.  It could just as easily be a vertical with a different = mounting=20 and the addition of a spring.


Hi John,=20

      The magnet / coil setup in = a hard=20 drive can give good feedback or movement sensitivity, but the = temperature=20 coefficient of the magnets is quite high. This four pole magnet setup = will=20 give very effective damping if you put a Cu or Al damping plate in the = magnet=20 gap.
      The existing bearings = might or=20 might not work. Stick / slip is the problem. Adding a mass and a = spring in=20 such a way as to get a natural extended period is likely to be more = difficult.=20
      Otherwise you need a good = distance=20 transducer and a feedback circuit. Using the magnet / coil on a 1 sec = pendulum=20 of the SG type should work.  

This may prove to be an interesting project, I think it = may be=20 at least as sensitive as a geophone. I still need to do some work on = the=20 amplifier section, it's only half done. Incidentally, I'm using = LTC1063=20 digital 5 pole low pass filters for filtration-anybody else ever use = these?=20


      Most use = analogue=20 filters. Digital filters can be useful, but they have a relatively = high noise=20 floor, which limits the dynamic range that they can handle. You might = check if=20 this is a limitation in your application.=20

      Regards,=20

      Chris Chapman=20 =00 Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: Richard Schwaninger richard@............... Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 22:48:00 -0700 Jim, Thanks for the comments. About the frequency response. Are these geophones damped to such a large extent that even if I roll off the output at, say, 10 Hz, I still wouldn't have anything resembling a useful output? I only intend these to monitor local events. I've figured it easier to first look at local events with commercial sensors and work on the electronics and data gathering/recording. Later I do intend to construct some other sensors for teleseisms. Thanks again, Richard Jim ODonnell wrote: > > Hi Richard- The Geosource is a good geophone, but not adequate for > earthquake recording, too high a frequency response at 14 Hz, you will > need the 4.5 Hz or 1 Hz response. Your questions and many more you have, > can be anwsered by going to the Public Seismic Network web page- > http://psn.quake.net/geophone/index.html for geophones that can record > earthquakes. > > More general information is at: http://psn.quake.net > > Yes Pleasanton is an active area... > Best Regards- > Jim O'Donnell > UNLV > On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:55:20 -0700 Richard Schwaninger > writes: > > Hello group. > > > > I'm new here but have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if > > this > > has been answered before, I did do a quick search and didn't come > > up > > with anything. If so please point me to the right place - archive > > or > > google. > > > > I'm in Pleasanton, and so should have something to look at every > > once in > > a while. I'm starting to set something up at home. I thought I'd > > first > > look for local events and so purchased a few Geosource MD-100 > > geophones. > > They are labeled 14Hz, 330 Ohms. > > > > Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster > > in a > > X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis, so I > > figure I will not be able to construct a 3 axis unit with these > > geophones? Is there a work-around? Are there other available (in the > > $20 > > range) units which work on their sides? > > > > The second question, which really should of been first, is: are > > these > > geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events? > > > > Thanks for any information. > > > > Richard > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: "Larry Cochrane" lcochrane@.............. Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2003 23:19:54 -0700 Richard, The problem with a 14hz sensor is that local earthquakes produce information mostly in the 1 to 5 hz range. A 4.5 Hz sensor will just barely record local events or the P wave of a very large teleseismic event. A 14Hz sensor will produce very little voltage at 5 Hz, so I can't imagine it working very well to record earthquakes. What I would do is make a Lehman since it can be used to record local and teleseismic events. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Schwaninger" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:48 PM Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones > Jim, > > Thanks for the comments. About the frequency response. Are these > geophones > damped to such a large extent that even if I roll off the output at, > say, > 10 Hz, I still wouldn't have anything resembling a useful output? I only > intend these to monitor local events. I've figured it easier to first > look > at local events with commercial sensors and work on the electronics and > data gathering/recording. Later I do intend to construct some other > sensors for teleseisms. > > Thanks again, > > Richard > > Jim ODonnell wrote: > > > > Hi Richard- The Geosource is a good geophone, but not adequate for > > earthquake recording, too high a frequency response at 14 Hz, you will > > need the 4.5 Hz or 1 Hz response. Your questions and many more you have, > > can be anwsered by going to the Public Seismic Network web page- > > http://psn.quake.net/geophone/index.html for geophones that can record > > earthquakes. > > > > More general information is at: http://psn.quake.net > > > > Yes Pleasanton is an active area... > > Best Regards- > > Jim O'Donnell > > UNLV > > On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:55:20 -0700 Richard Schwaninger > > writes: > > > Hello group. > > > > > > I'm new here but have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if > > > this > > > has been answered before, I did do a quick search and didn't come > > > up > > > with anything. If so please point me to the right place - archive > > > or > > > google. > > > > > > I'm in Pleasanton, and so should have something to look at every > > > once in > > > a while. I'm starting to set something up at home. I thought I'd > > > first > > > look for local events and so purchased a few Geosource MD-100 > > > geophones. > > > They are labeled 14Hz, 330 Ohms. > > > > > > Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster > > > in a > > > X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis, so I > > > figure I will not be able to construct a 3 axis unit with these > > > geophones? Is there a work-around? Are there other available (in the > > > $20 > > > range) units which work on their sides? > > > > > > The second question, which really should of been first, is: are > > > these > > > geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events? > > > > > > Thanks for any information. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 05:48:23 -0600 Hi Richard, I agree with the various comments -- a small 10 Hz geophone is not going to work very well for small, regional events. There are two problems: 1 - the natural frequency of 10 Hz is a bit high (2 Hz would be better) and 2 - the sensitivity, even at 10 Hz is not great, as these are very small units designed to pick up rather large signals. Having said that, the price is right and it couldn't hurt to give them a try. You would need to set up a filter/amplifier/recorder system to test them out and during the test you could be building a Lehman or purchasing a lower frequency geophone. Cheers, John At 11:48 PM 6/24/2003, you wrote: >Jim, > >Thanks for the comments. About the frequency response. Are these >geophones >damped to such a large extent that even if I roll off the output at, >say, >10 Hz, I still wouldn't have anything resembling a useful output? I only >intend these to monitor local events. I've figured it easier to first >look >at local events with commercial sensors and work on the electronics and >data gathering/recording. Later I do intend to construct some other >sensors for teleseisms. > >Thanks again, > >Richard > >Jim ODonnell wrote: > > > > Hi Richard- The Geosource is a good geophone, but not adequate for > > earthquake recording, too high a frequency response at 14 Hz, you will > > need the 4.5 Hz or 1 Hz response. Your questions and many more you have, > > can be anwsered by going to the Public Seismic Network web page- > > http://psn.quake.net/geophone/index.html for geophones that can record > > earthquakes. > > > > More general information is at: http://psn.quake.net > > > > Yes Pleasanton is an active area... > > Best Regards- > > Jim O'Donnell > > UNLV > > On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 22:55:20 -0700 Richard Schwaninger > > writes: > > > Hello group. > > > > > > I'm new here but have a couple of questions. Please excuse me if > > > this > > > has been answered before, I did do a quick search and didn't come > > > up > > > with anything. If so please point me to the right place - archive > > > or > > > google. > > > > > > I'm in Pleasanton, and so should have something to look at every > > > once in > > > a while. I'm starting to set something up at home. I thought I'd > > > first > > > look for local events and so purchased a few Geosource MD-100 > > > geophones. > > > They are labeled 14Hz, 330 Ohms. > > > > > > Looking at pictures, I've seen similar units arranged in a cluster > > > in a > > > X-Y-Z configuration. The MD-100s I have only work in one axis, so I > > > figure I will not be able to construct a 3 axis unit with these > > > geophones? Is there a work-around? Are there other available (in the > > > $20 > > > range) units which work on their sides? > > > > > > The second question, which really should of been first, is: are > > > these > > > geophones adequate or appropriate for monitoring local events? > > > > > > Thanks for any information. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: Richard Schwaninger richard@............... Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 06:32:55 -0700 Hi, Ok, seems I started off with the wrong sensors. I plan to do just as you mention below; build the electronics, data collection and storage. Then I can move on to some better or more suitable sensors. Last night I did do some quick testing on the MD-100s. The are responsive down to 3 Hz. Not a lot of signal and certainly much less than at 10 or 20 Hz. Thanks, Richard John or Jan Lahr wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > I agree with the various comments -- a small 10 Hz geophone is not going > to work very well for small, regional events. There are two problems: 1 - the > natural frequency of 10 Hz is a bit high (2 Hz would be better) and 2 - > the sensitivity, even at 10 Hz is not great, as these are very small units > designed to pick up rather large signals. > > Having said that, the price is right and it couldn't hurt to give them a > try. You would need to set up a filter/amplifier/recorder system to test > them out and during the test you could be building a Lehman or purchasing > a lower frequency geophone. > > Cheers, > John __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: Jim ODonnell jimo17@........ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 08:27:19 -0700 Richard- Consider that all geophones roll off like a 2 pole filter- ie- 12db/oct or 40db/decade so 10Hz to 1 Hz you have 1/100 attenuatiom and 10 Hz to 0.1 Hz you have 1/10,000 attenuation It does not leave much to record.....Jim/UNLV ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: WinSDR From: "tdick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 14:55:06 -0500 System Pentium 2, running windows 2000, 10 g hard drive half empty dedicated to running WinSDR & your boards Had just finished the two Lehman's to do with the vertical and decided = to set different colors on each detector.Things seemed fine. I got that = done. Had been working since early June. BUTTT..... I had gone to system settings and changed channels to record and saw the = add/drop interval. I was in a hurry. Thinking this might be the way to = change the giff saving setting from 22 hours to 24, I changed the = setting to 24. This locked the program tigher that a drum. I shut down = and restarted the computer. WinSDR would not go passed the first window = with the green WinSDR in the upper left hand corner. I was like it was = till loading. I uninstalled WinSDR and reinstalled. I still was stuck. I = reinstalled and updated Windows 2000 and reinstalled WinSDR. Still I = cannot get the program to work. I can not get into the system settings = or any other window -- if I try to put anything in it still locks up. I = can get control of the computer by CRNT/ALT/Delete Any suggestions?
System
Pentium 2, running windows 2000, 10 g = hard drive=20 half empty
dedicated to running WinSDR & your=20 boards
 
Had just finished the two Lehman's = to do with=20 the vertical and decided to set different colors on each detector.Things = seemed=20 fine. I got that done. Had been working since early June.=20 BUTTT.....
 
I had gone to system settings and = changed channels=20 to record and saw the add/drop interval. I was in a hurry. Thinking this = might=20 be the way to change the giff saving setting from 22 hours to 24, I = changed the=20 setting to 24. This locked the program tigher that a drum. I shut down = and=20 restarted the computer. WinSDR would not go passed the first window with = the=20 green WinSDR in the upper left hand corner. I was like it was till = loading. I=20 uninstalled WinSDR and reinstalled. I still was stuck. I reinstalled and = updated=20 Windows 2000 and reinstalled WinSDR. Still I cannot get the program to = work. I=20 can not get into the system settings or any other window -- if I try to = put=20 anything in it still locks up. I can get control of the computer by=20 CRNT/ALT/Delete
 
Any = suggestions?
Subject: Re: Geosource MD-100 geophones From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:03:11 -0600 Hi Richard and Jim, The AS1 system has a period of about 1 Hz and yet can often see surface waves with a period of 10 s or a bit longer. I think the advantage of the AS1 system over a small refraction geophone is that the magnet/coil arrangement has a larger volts out per velocity in. In any case, if I lived near any earthquakes I would give a 10 Hz geophone a try. If the event is close enough, it will have some energy at frequencies above 1 Hz. But then again, the signal from the geophone may be less than the electronic noise of the amplifier for all but the largest events. One could boost the signal from the small geophones by putting 5 in series. Cheers, John At 09:27 AM 6/25/2003, you wrote: >Richard- Consider that all geophones roll off like a 2 pole filter- >ie- 12db/oct or 40db/decade >so 10Hz to 1 Hz you have 1/100 attenuatiom >and 10 Hz to 0.1 Hz you have 1/10,000 attenuation >It does not leave much to record.....Jim/UNLV > >________________________________________________________________ >The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! >Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! >Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: meter movements as geophones From: james fisher kd6iwd@......... Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:13:01 -0700 (PDT) Greetings all, I have noticed that if I connect two meter movements together and move the meter pointer on one meter by gently toutching the pointer and moving it, the other meter deflects just about the same amount as the first. The meter movements were microampmeter types and proved to be very sensitive. I thenk that these meter movements may prove to be a good substitution for geophones because they use powerful magnets and a finely wound coil in the gap between the two magnet poles. This is the same as a geophone except the geometry of movement is changed. In order to convert to a geophone it only remains to couple the meter to a pendulum of some sort. best regards Jim kd6iwd@......... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: PSN: Attention seismic drum display users From: meredithlamb meredithlamb@............. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:42:03 -0600 Hi all, In short, I have a big old photographic 3 component drum assembly I would like to dispose of. The assembly rotates and translates in time OK. Its biggest potential is to add on the mechanical parts (pen-motor etc.) to use with either ink or thermal paper. The item is free of cost to a sincere individual who WILL use such (and not resale). I've a quanity of misc., paper and potential add-on accessory parts I can include with such. My interests chronically have been elsewhere, so, I need the room in the garage. These parts/pieces are also free. Due to the weight, size and quanity of material, I do require direct pickup in Denver, Colorado. Its a "bit much" to try to commercially ship. Write to me my email address above for further details. If their is no interest or award by July 15th; the item will no longer be available thereafter. Take care, Meredith Lamb __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Attention seismic drum display users From: "Doug Crice" dcrice@............ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 10:45:29 -0700 Meredith, If you could schlep the parts to one of the commercial mail box firms (like mail boxes are us), they would be happy to box them up and ship them. It wouldn't be all that cheap, but probably cheaper than driving a great distance to Denver. Doug Crice Geostuff http://www.georadar.com/geostuff.htm 12996 Somerset Drive phone 1-530-274-4445 Grass Valley, CA 95945 USA fax 1-530-274-4446 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: meter movements as geophones From: "testology" testology@........... Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 08:31:05 -0700 Hi James Fisher-- I enjoy reading your mails because you're so inventive with your ideas, keep up the interesting work! It is individual small scale experimentation with ideas that have almost entirely furthered the cause of science! I don't have any doubt you can fabricate your own Lehman or other seismos-- but the idea of geophones is a large suspended mass surrounded by a coil so when the mass moves (technically not correct, but for purposes of this email...) the coil outputs a waveform consistent with its movement. Although a meter movement is a coil, the needle and magnet assembly lacks the mass to output a low frequency waveform, although for a short period higher frequency (fast oscillation) temblor it might work. What the heck, try it and see! Tom D. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: meter movements as geophones From: james fisher kd6iwd@......... Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Hi thanks for answering me. yes I agree that a meter all by itself would not respond to seismic waves. It may be possible to couple the meter movement to a pendulum in some manner. Perhaps a hair thin wire could be superglued to the meter pointer, and the other end attached to a pendulum weight. alternately perhaps the meter needle could be placed in contact with the pendulum at some point. By adjusting the zeroing adjustmtnt on the meter it would be possible to adjust theforce at the contact. Then the meter movement would move with the movement of the pendulum, and respond to seismic waves. Best Regards jim --- testology wrote: > Hi James Fisher-- I enjoy reading your mails because > you're so inventive > with your ideas, keep up the interesting work! It is > individual small scale > experimentation with ideas that have almost entirely > furthered the cause of > science! > I don't have any doubt you can fabricate your own > Lehman or other seismos-- > but the idea of geophones is a large suspended mass > surrounded by a coil so > when the mass moves (technically not correct, but > for purposes of this > email...) the coil outputs a waveform consistent > with its movement. Although > a meter movement is a coil, the needle and magnet > assembly lacks the mass to > output a low frequency waveform, although for a > short period higher > frequency (fast oscillation) temblor it might work. > What the heck, try it > and see! Tom D. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): > unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month! http://sbc.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: meter movements as geophones From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:16:43 EDT Hi there Jim, If you can get hold of a 50 or 100 micro amp panel meter with a torsion ribbon suspension (not a pivot) and mount it with the needle vertical, you can then glue a small bit of metal onto the end of the needle and it will act as a small seismic sensor. Meters with pivot suspensions generally have too much friction to be reliable. If you make the added mass out of thin Al sheet, you can then damp the motion more using magnets, if need be. The meter movements themselves are usually designed to be overdamped, but adding more mass to the end of the neede is likely to allow them to oscillate. Regards, Chris Chapman Hi there Jim,

     If you can get hold of a 50 or 100 micro amp panel=20= meter with a torsion ribbon suspension (not a pivot) and mount it with the n= eedle vertical, you can then glue a small bit of metal onto the end of the n= eedle and it will act as a small seismic sensor. Meters with pivot suspensio= ns generally have too much friction to be reliable.
     If you make the added mass out of thin Al sheet, yo= u can then damp the motion more using magnets, if need be. The meter movemen= ts themselves are usually designed to be overdamped, but adding more mass to= the end of the neede is likely to allow them to oscillate.

     Regards,

     Chris Chapman  Subject: Re: PSN: Attention seismic drum display users From: John or Jan Lahr johnjan@........ Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 21:21:47 -0600 Hi Meredith, One option would be to see if the IRIS group would like the drum assembly to donate to a museum. Their goal is to add one museum per year to those that have IRIS earthquake exhibits. Some of the IRIS museums are described here: http://jclahr.com/science/museum/index.html For information on IRIS, see: http://www.iris.washington.edu/ Yours, John At 10:42 AM 6/26/2003, you wrote: >Hi all, > >In short, I have a big old photographic 3 component drum assembly >I would like to dispose of. The assembly rotates and translates >in time OK. Its biggest potential is to add on the mechanical >parts (pen-motor etc.) to use with either ink or thermal paper. >The item is free of cost to a sincere individual who WILL use >such (and not resale). > >I've a quanity of misc., paper and potential add-on accessory >parts I can include with such. My interests chronically have >been elsewhere, so, I need the room in the garage. These >parts/pieces are also free. > >Due to the weight, size and quanity of material, I do require >direct pickup in Denver, Colorado. Its a "bit much" to try >to commercially ship. > >Write to me my email address above for further details. If >their is no interest or award by July 15th; the item will no >longer be available thereafter. > >Take care, Meredith Lamb > > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: meter movements as geophones From: meredithlamb meredithlamb@............. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:38:58 -0600 Hi all, Suspect that the "natural" period would be rather short with rather a severe limited mass weight of course....but....one might see some of the longer period waves from the bigger quakes. Would suspect that the older (1960's-1970's) (big) meters with 4 extending base mount screws would be the handiest to convert/utilize. I think this type of meter suspension is also called a "taut band"....not that it really matters....but interesting with the variety of names it comes under....as does alot of material. Would also guess that any circuit might need some adequate isolation from the meter.....if I'am putting it right. Theres actually another alternative rather than just amplifying the meter coil output. One could use the meter coil and a suitable potentiometer....just for dampening. One could use light and two photocells around the end of the meter pointer (boom/mass) and likely see truer displacement longer periods than the original velocity meter coil/magnet output. I even wonder if the meter coil could be a nice feedback mechanism with a light output approach. Don't ask me how though....ha. One would likely need a fine and gental mechanical touch to do this I'am sure....probably the toughest aspect of all. Take care, Meredith ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > Hi there Jim, > > If you can get hold of a 50 or 100 micro amp panel meter with a > torsion ribbon suspension (not a pivot) and mount it with the needle > vertical, you can then glue a small bit of metal onto the end of the > needle and it will act as a small seismic sensor. Meters with pivot > suspensions generally have too much friction to be reliable. > If you make the added mass out of thin Al sheet, you can then > damp the motion more using magnets, if need be. The meter movements > themselves are usually designed to be overdamped, but adding more mass > to the end of the neede is likely to allow them to oscillate. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman Hi all,

Suspect that the "natural" period would be rather short with rather
a severe limited mass weight of course....but....one might see
some of the longer period waves from the bigger quakes.
Would suspect that the older (1960's-1970's) (big) meters with
4 extending base mount screws would be the handiest to
convert/utilize.  I think this type of meter suspension is also called
a "taut band"....not that it really matters....but interesting with the
variety of names it comes under....as does alot of material.

Would also guess that any circuit might need some adequate
isolation from the meter.....if I'am putting it right.

Theres actually another alternative rather than just amplifying
the meter coil output.  One could use the meter coil and a
suitable potentiometer....just for dampening.  One could use
light and two photocells around the end of the meter pointer
(boom/mass) and likely see truer displacement longer periods
than the original velocity meter coil/magnet output.

I even wonder if the meter coil could be a nice feedback
mechanism with a light output approach.  Don't ask me how
though....ha.

One would likely need a fine and gental mechanical touch
to do this I'am sure....probably the toughest aspect of all.

Take care, Meredith

ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote:

Hi there Jim,

     If you can get hold of a 50 or 100 micro amp panel meter with a torsion ribbon suspension (not a pivot) and mount it with the needle vertical, you can then glue a small bit of metal onto the end of the needle and it will act as a small seismic sensor. Meters with pivot suspensions generally have too much friction to be reliable.
     If you make the added mass out of thin Al sheet, you can then damp the motion more using magnets, if need be. The meter movements themselves are usually designed to be overdamped, but adding more mass to the end of the neede is likely to allow them to oscillate.

     Regards,

     Chris Chapman

Subject: Re: Attention seismic drum display users From: meredithlamb meredithlamb@............. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 22:57:30 -0600 Hi Doug and all, Thanks Doug for the note. I see I really need to give more info for anyone interested....my mistake/s. I should emphasize one BIG point here. This is not a complete drum with recording pen-motors ready to go. One would have to "jerry-rig" the pen-motors (they get or find/adopt) near the top of the drum, and all its assorted electronics. Its a total conversion project in regards to the penmotors, mechanical mounting, and those electronics. Guess I should mention that the drum unit is rather large, 54.25" in length X 12" wide, but I didn't measure the height, which is likely like 15" or so. I'd have to build a wood box for safekeeping in shipment, something I'd rather not do, and then likely have the box tossed after delivery. Not a small item. I'am guessing all the potential stuff together could come close to topping off a regular pickup truck box load. Probably the largest bulk is a variety of old strip chart paper; both ink and thermal...including some thermal fax paper that "could" work. I've NO original paper for these recorders...its VERY expensive. There is also a table available to mount the drum upon, and at least one oscillographic recorder, that isn't small either. So....I'd rather not fuss with it all. I've no problem with really small stuff...but this is a bit much. I figure that if someone values the material, they will find a way to Denver....and save me from any shipping effort. This old stuff is a big contrast to the more modern and much smaller computer recording alternative material approach....ha. Take care, Meredith Doug Crice wrote: > Meredith, > > If you could schlep the parts to one of the commercial mail box firms (like > mail boxes are us), they would be happy to box them up and ship them. It > wouldn't be all that cheap, but probably cheaper than driving a great > distance to Denver. > > Doug Crice > Geostuff http://www.georadar.com/geostuff.htm > 12996 Somerset Drive phone 1-530-274-4445 > Grass Valley, CA 95945 USA fax 1-530-274-4446 > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: PSN: Attention seismic drum display users From: meredithlamb meredithlamb@............. Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:25:54 -0600 Hi John, Am always amazed at the extent of your web site....its "huge", but excellent and quite extensive. OK on the note...however the drum assembly isn't complete and ready to go...(penmotors, amplifier etc.) which I think any such museum would naturally desire. I think its much more suited for a amateur to complete. The museum mention, reminds me once, of a fossil skull I once found in north-east Colorado long ago. It looked like a normal wolf skull too me...(I was about 12 years old) but the Denver Museum didn't like it, they claimed it was "crushed"....ha. It never reached display of course. Museum people are quite picky....ha. Turns out it was a 25 million year old pig anchestor ......alas...not exactly what I originally thought it was.... and definitely not interesting to the museum either. Oh well...it was personally exciting for a short while.... Take care, Meredith John or Jan Lahr wrote: > Hi Meredith, > > One option would be to see if the IRIS group would like the drum > assembly to donate to a museum. Their goal is to add one museum > per year to those that have IRIS earthquake exhibits. > > Some of the IRIS museums are described here: > http://jclahr.com/science/museum/index.html > > For information on IRIS, see: http://www.iris.washington.edu/ > > Yours, > John __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: meter movements as geophones From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 08:56:58 EDT In a message dated 27/06/2003, meredithlamb@............. writes: > Suspect that the "natural" period would be rather short with rather a > severe limited mass weight of course. Would suspect that the older (1960's-1970's) > (big) meters with 4 extending base mount screws would be the handiest to > convert/utilize. Hi Meredith, A half second pendulum is about 6.2 cm long ~2.5", 1/3 sec pendulum is ~1.1" long, so this is likely to be within the useful period range. One of the edge view meters might be OK. I think this type of meter suspension is also called a "taut band"..> Would > also guess that any circuit might need some adequate isolation from the > meter.....if I'am putting it right. Theres actually another alternative rather > than just amplifying the meter coil output. One could use the meter coil and a > suitable potentiometer....just for dampening. One could use light and two > photocells around the end of the meter pointer (boom/mass) and likely see truer > displacement longer periods than the original velocity meter coil/magnet > output. I even wonder if the meter coil could be a nice feedback mechanism with a > light output approach. One would likely need a fine and gentle mechanical > touch to do this I'am sure. The meter movements have a copper former to give damping and a fairly high resistance coil. With a relatively inefficient sensor, you may need all the sensitivity that you can get. Trying to damp a light pendulum system using the coil + a resistor will cut the sensitivity a lot. Putting the meter straight into an inverting opamp input might be a better approach, but I suspect that this will still only allow you to use a very light mass and getting it reasonably 'right' could be tricky. Separating out the damping using a magnet actng directly on the pendulum mass plate would allow you to use a larger mass. With the light seismic mass, the sensor is going to be relatively noisy, susceptible to air movements.... workable, but way off optimum. I was thinking in terms of what a school science student might do to make something fairly easily and which 'works'. If you want a good seismic detector, it would be better to make a 1 sec SG pendulum type, instead of trying to modify a meter. Looking at the current cost of meters, this might also be a cheaper option. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 27/06/2003, meredithlamb@earthlin= k.net writes:

Suspect that the "natural" peri= od would be rather short with rather a severe limited mass weight of course.= Would suspect that the older (1960's-1970's) (big) meters with 4 extending=20= base mount screws would be the handiest to convert/utilize.


Hi Meredith,

     A half second pendulum is about 6.2 cm long ~2.5",=20= 1/3 sec pendulum is ~1.1" long, so this is likely to be within the useful pe= riod range. One of the edge view meters might be OK.

 I think this type of meter=20= suspension is also called a "taut band"..
Would also guess that any circuit might need some adequate isolat= ion from the meter.....if I'am putting it right. Theres actually another alt= ernative rather than just amplifying the meter coil output. One could use th= e meter coil and a suitable potentiometer....just for dampening. One could u= se light and two photocells around the end of the meter pointer (boom/mass)=20= and likely see truer displacement longer periods than the original velocity=20= meter coil/magnet output. I even wonder if the meter coil could be a nice fe= edback mechanism with a light output approach. One would likely need a fine=20= and gentle mechanical touch to do this I'am sure
.

     T= he meter movements have a copper former to give damping and a fairly high re= sistance coil. With a relatively inefficient sensor, you may need all the se= nsitivity that you can get. Trying to damp a light pendulum system using the= coil + a resistor will cut the sensitivity a lot. Putting the meter straigh= t into an inverting opamp input might be a better approach, but I suspect th= at this will still only allow you to use a very light mass and getting it re= asonably 'right' could be tricky. Separating out the damping using a magnet=20= actng directly on the pendulum mass plate would allow you to use a larger ma= ss. With the light seismic mass, the sensor is going to be relatively noisy,= susceptible to air movements.... workable, but way off optimum.
     I was thinking in terms of what a school science st= udent might do to make something fairly easily and which 'works'. If you wan= t a good seismic detector, it would be better to make a 1 sec SG pendulum ty= pe, instead of trying to modify a meter. Looking at the current cost of mete= rs, this might also be a cheaper option.

    Regards,

    Chris Chapman Subject: Unsubscribe From: "testology" testology@........... Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2003 13:24:41 -0700 Please Unsubscribe. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)